BMWs

[ndahbar]

Alright, I've read some stories about racing M3s and other BMWs. Let me say this.

From what I've witnessed with my own two eyes and right foot (heheh), BMWs are, if their published output figures are accurate, incredibly efficient machines. Don't mess with them unless you kick total ass.

For example: My friend's '99 328i s5pd. Holy smokes. Ok, my 99 GSX (still has the lame T-25 but I got 1G BOV, K&N, full 2.5 inch exh.) can almost STAY with me up to 130mph! Ok, so I kill him in 1st/2nd, but man oh man are those German machines built for the highway!

Remember: That car is 3200 lbs, a little lighter than mine, and supposedly 193bhp. What?! Mine should be doing 260HP easy. Obviously, the gear ratio selection and torque distribution of that new double-vanos engine is fabulous. I drove it extensively. Feels like a truck pulling cuz you feel the same torque from 2000 to redline. Damn.

M3z? Are you guys kidding? They will KILL any DSM w/o at least 16G. Seriously fast. A 540i even with automatic will give you HUGE run for your money (I played with one once, outcome not good). Also, I have friends overseas that refuse to race any of their F-bodies with anything German on the highway. They are confident in 0-60, but triple digits they refuse anything German, even 740iL (oh my god, what a car/engine).

I would like to hear a story (accurate) of a race from 20mph-140mph with a 540i, 6-spd or not. ;0

[redgsturbo]

if all you have is the k&n and a 2.5exhaust i doubt ur at 260hp. i've got more mods and will get a dyno done soon at our new dyno so ill let you know though


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J. Hunter Allred
http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/scrambles.gif
'95 GS-T free mods, K&N, 3" HKS Superdragger, ACT2600, lightened flywheel, and otherthings that escape me at the moment. T-25 handicapped though. As you can see its a work in progress. Figure if i buy it i should buy it once :)

[redgsturbo]

and by the way.. after three encounters with three DIFFERENT late 90's m3's (a coupe, a sedan and a convertable, so a good spread) i have beat them all.. a friend at work has a canadian m3 (283 vs. the 240 or so in america) and i havent raced him yet, but i suspect he will be my match or beat me.

btw two the sedan was from ~30mph to about 90 and the coupe was ~45mph to ~130

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J. Hunter Allred
http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/scrambles.gif
'95 GS-T free mods, K&N, 3" HKS Superdragger, ACT2600, lightened flywheel, and otherthings that escape me at the moment. T-25 handicapped though. As you can see its a work in progress. Figure if i buy it i should buy it once :)

[This message has been edited by redgsturbo (edited October 07, 2000).]

[TurboMitsu]

I've encountered M3's before and like redgsturnbo I've killed them all back then I've only had HKS int, 2G Mani + o2, 2.5 turbo-back, walbro and I was running at 16Psi,
My father owed a m3 back in europe nad I've got to say that I loved it!

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http://www.tadmotorsports.com/tad-images/images/cars-pages/cars_evovi00stpr02.jpg

[Donnie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ndahbar:
...still has the lame T-25 but I got 1G BOV, K&N, full 2.5 inch exh... Mine should be doing 260HP easy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate to break it to you dude, but your car has about 215-220bhp, not 260bhp.

Check out the mods I have listed below. All of that (minus the FMIC) and I netted:

212fwhp @ 6000rpms
225lb-ft @ 3200rpms

That translates into appx. 254bhp.

Those M3's are high to mid 13sec. rides, which is pretty quick, but not unbeatable. A modified DSM with the stock T25 can tick off those times. Insert a 16G or larger turbo and all that the M3 will see is exhaust pipes and tail lights.


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'95 Mitsu Eclipse GS-T

16G Killer, 2.75" RS-R exhaust (turbo back), HKS intake, Apexi BOV, 10lb. flywheel, Centerforce DF, Greddy FMIC, 8.5mm wires, NGK 7's, Apexi Super AFC, Greddy Profec, Energy Suspension motor mounts

[ndahbar]

Well yeah, there you go, I was talking about crank HP not wheel! You say 254 horses, yeah sounds about right.

And no no no. I don't see how the hell you can beat a stock M3 with a T-25! No way Jose! I am telling you with my "254bhp" GSX (sure, GS-T's are faster on highway) my friend's stock 328i (5-spd) was almost able to stay with me till 130!!! Like I said 1st and 2nd gear no contest, but 3rd 4th and 5th I am like "uh, his car is 193bhp...WTF!!!".

'99 328i 'bout 3240lbs.


There is no way then that anyone can convince me of whipping an M3 w/o 16G. No way. Maybe a FWD 1G with 14B turbo and upgraded this and that, from 20mph to 140mph. But not a 2G with T-25, GSX or GS-T.

[ndahbar]

Oh, just to clear up I have:

2.5 inch turbo-back (2.5 inch cat)
1G BOV
K&N

Very nice how you get an easy 45-50 more horses with just those! =)

With 16G@15psi planned (and ACT2100) it should be a mid 13's 1/4-miler...then at least I'll have a chance to dance with M3s.
But with T-25 being a total TURD above 5500RPM I would be eaten alive right now.

[redgsturbo]

look im not trying to offend you but with just a bov a k&n and a 2.5 exhaust you arent at 250.. sorry. And i promise i can leave M3's behind all day and all night.. especially with this cool weather. would you like me to bring an M3 owner into this??? i probably could if it meant that much.

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J. Hunter Allred
http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/scrambles.gif
'95 GS-T free mods, K&N, 3" HKS Superdragger, ACT2600, lightened flywheel, and otherthings that escape me at the moment. T-25 handicapped though. As you can see its a work in progress. Figure if i buy it i should buy it once :)

[redgsturbo]

and btw dont waste money on a 2100.. just get a 2600 now.. i hate seeing people throw away money

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J. Hunter Allred
http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/scrambles.gif
'95 GS-T free mods, K&N, 3" HKS Superdragger, ACT2600, lightened flywheel, and otherthings that escape me at the moment. T-25 handicapped though. As you can see its a work in progress. Figure if i buy it i should buy it once :)

[Donnie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ndahbar:
Well yeah, there you go, I was talking about crank HP not wheel! You say 254 horses, yeah sounds about right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pay attention... MY CAR has 254bhp YOUR CAR has 215-220bhp.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't see how the hell you can beat a stock M3 with a T-25! No way Jose!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FYI, I have seen a GSX with the stock T25 tick off 13.5x 1/4 mile passes. Not too many M3's can make that same claim.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Like I said 1st and 2nd gear no contest, but 3rd 4th and 5th I am like "uh, his car is 193bhp...WTF!!!".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This all goes back to the point made before: your car has about 215-220bhp!

Here's a post (http://se.dsm.org/seubb/Forum5/HTML/000305.html) by a SE DSM member who has ran a 13.28 in a T25 equipped GSX.
http://se.dsm.org/seubb/Forum5/HTML/000305.html

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>2.5 inch turbo-back (2.5 inch cat)
1G BOV
K&N

Very nice how you get an easy 45-50 more horses with just those! =)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't believe that you would ever say something like that in public. That has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard any DSMer say in my life. If that statement was a result of you misunderstanding my earlier comments, then I appologize deeply to the other members of this board.

[DRagtop]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TurboMitsu:
I've encountered M3's before and likMy father owed a m3 back in europe nad I've got to say that I loved it!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The european M3s are very different from the M3's over here....the us M3 is nothing but a souped up 325i... the Euro M3 packs 321HP (3.2l inline 6cyl)..

Still don't like em ;)

[redgsturbo]

not as of 2001.. all m3's are created equal now (333 hp i think)

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J. Hunter Allred
http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/scrambles.gif
'95 GS-T free mods, K&N, 3" HKS Superdragger, ACT2600, lightened flywheel, and otherthings that escape me at the moment. T-25 handicapped though. As you can see its a work in progress. Figure if i buy it i should buy it once :)

[Black97GST]

I own a 1995 M3 with many mods. I just recently got the eclipse for a daily driver and its a fun lil car, IMO you can't compare the M3 to the eclipse. The M3 is a handler not meant to be the best 1320 car, although it can be. My M3 is currently at around 330HP or so, I could see a GSX taking one but a GST I dunno (Stock vs. Stock). But I love both cars just 2 diff. type of driving experience IMO.

[redgsturbo]

true.. i've never ran one stock.. but the m3 is know for its handling.. my friend that has the canadian m3 (280hp) said his step mom's amg prepped mercedes s500 handles far better, as does an s2000 he drove.. this guys' dad has an original shelby cobra.. wish my parents had $$$ and liked cars. oh well

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J. Hunter Allred
http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/scrambles.gif
'95 GS-T free mods, K&N, 3" HKS Superdragger, ACT2600, lightened flywheel, and otherthings that escape me at the moment. T-25 handicapped though. As you can see its a work in progress. Figure if i buy it i should buy it once :)

[sublime]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Here's a post by a SE DSM member who has ran a 13.28 in a T25 equipped GSX.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If you are speaking of that first guy who made the thread, he has a 94, which means he ran that with a 14B unless he put in a T25, which if he did... he should be shot. :)

Jack

[Donnie]

You're right Sublime. My bad. I read his sig wrong. I thought that he had a 96 all along. :o

I've still seen a 97 GSX with the T25 pull 13.5x in the 1/4. He had a bunch done to the motor, but was still running the stock turbo.

[Fourdoor]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Donnie:
You're right Sublime. My bad. I read his sig wrong. I thought that he had a 96 all along. :o

I've still seen a 97 GSX with the T25 pull 13.5x in the 1/4. He had a bunch done to the motor, but was still running the stock turbo.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hell, I've seen (with my own eyes) a FWD 2G still running the T-25 hit high 13's with little trouble, I don't doubt that an AWD could hit mid to low 13's with it.

Keith

[ndahbar]

Donnie,

Please, let's keep it to HP @ the crank, not the wheels. So you say you have 254 horses and I have 215-220? What do you have over my mods(int/exh/1GBOV) but a lightened flywheel?

I still say BULL CRAP to everyone on this list that they can beat a stock '96+ M3 with a T-25, regardless of other MIBs. Maybe from 0-70mph if you're a good driver with an AWD car. But after that forget it.

Judging from M3's pull in 3rd and 4th gears (never mind 5th when the DSM would be all the way back), I am sure they will kill ANY of you without at least a 16G.

[ndahbar]

Unles your Greddy FMIC and Profec, and Apexi AFC make THAT much of a difference...and 2.75 inch turbo-back...do you have a straight-pipe Donnie or cat?

[ndahbar]

Sorry about the multiple posts. Ok let me clarify something:

You guys all talk about 1/4 mile. Ok, so that's (with a stock 2G) is MAYBE 90mph trap. Alright.

When I raced the 99 328i, I was TOTALLY stock. We punched it in the middle of 2nd gear on a straight. I was 1/2-car length ahead all the way till 4th gear at maybe 5krpm. Then of course I was revving higher, so crappy boost as I went to 6.5K RPM, and then the BMW's nose crept up a little, I shifted into 5th before him cuz I thought maybe I can slow down his progress. He shifts into 5th, BYE BYE! Blows by like I was parked.

In other words guys, 1/4 mile yes with your nice mods even with just T-25 you WILL beat a 328 (the new 330, dunno). But over 100mph FORGET IT.

After my mods, I beat him but BARELY, and he was catching up a little once over 120mph. Since then I bow down to the almighty BMW engineers. 2.8L NA. Amazing performance.

This is why I am so skeptical of all "beat M3 with T-25" claims. Are you joking? I think anyone of you with a T-25 will be obliterated very soon after reaching ~90 or 100mph by a stock M3.

Even you FWDs with awesome mods but still T-25 will get creamed by M3 at triple digits. They just make torque all over the place with amazing gearing. What did you expect from a $40k+ German car...

[ndahbar]

Yo check out TurboWizard's post about his race with a 99 Carrera 911. Damn he kept with it till 135mph. But then again he had the (great) 14B @ 17psi with 1G BOV and IC piping. But still, DAMN! 911s haul ass.

See T-25 really ain't all that bad, just the boost loss above 5k rpm is what sucks!

Oh yeah, forgot to mention I have a 2.25 inch Dave Brode Upper I/C pipe. Forgot about that. :p

[Cazzo]

Hello everyone.

I would agree that bmw's are no slouchers. My parents own both a 540 and an M3 and occasionally i drive them. i have to say i love my 98 gst better than both, apart from the luxury. I have the basic mods EVCIV, upper/lower IC piping, K/N, Greddy power extreme, all of which is regulated to 1.15 bar. Nothing beats the feeling of a turbo as the power comes online.
Two months ago some pretty boy pulled next to me in an M3 with some kind of exhaust system. We were on a slight hill up so i was at a major disadvantage being fwd but luckily this guy didnt know his ass from his elbow as he was dropping his clutch from like 1200 rpms and totally bogging his engine. Too put it midly i blew him away by like 3 or 4 car lengths until we hit the next light. He wasnt too excited as he payed close to 45K for his autobahn bruiser and was getting beat by a cheap japanese car. At first i thought he wasn't racing but i could see his nose crashing as he made poor shifts from 1 to 2nd. This is where that six banging torque comes in as we aproach the next light. This time he follows my approach to launching and was revving his car alot higher (guess he figured he could launch better and was pissed i beat him before)...Lucky for this guy traction control is standard or he would be all over the road.. GREEN light--- we are neck and neck to about 35 where i look over as he shifts and OMFG i've never seen a car take such a lunge forward (a whole car length or more) between shifts... Thank God M3's have traction control cuz this guy would be easily burning up his tires through 2nd. Was kind of funny but this guy got the last laugh as he cut in front of me as too say "F&^% you buddy my car is faster" Anyway..i dont really race my car much now because it is so slow with 19 inch Niche Bella's. As for 540's...haha forget it.. after 40mph they will punish you so bad it is ridiculous. Cant mess with german V8's (except for those slow SL500's) Iv'e burned those before.
Cya fellow dsm'ers....

Oh yeah 1 more opinion i have...Take traction control and ASC (automatic stability control) and 90% of people who drive beemers dont know crap about driving fast HAHA they could have the fastest cars around but wouldnt know a damn thing about controlling them.

[redgsturbo]

hey the kids (yupe. none over say.. 25) that i raced in the three m3s got smacked up all the way to the 100range. maybe they were ****ty drivers, maybe the were scared to floorit all the way in dad's play car. i dont really know, all i know is i beat them, not by any huge margin but i was ahead. as for 5series.. never found someone driving one who wanted to race, but never thought about racing one anyways. around here not many street races get up the the kinda speeds u are talking about. btw, even with my horrible horrible bald 205/55x16 gt-4's and nasty traction problems in my fwd, i kicked a 2k eclipse last night.. my girlfriend was in the car when we raced, she was freaking out a little at first but guess what she said.. she wants a gsx..haha.. another converted, at least i can drive a gsx for once (until the gst is paid off that is, then its my turn. :D


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J. Hunter Allred
http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/scrambles.gif
'95 GS-T free mods, K&N, 3" HKS Superdragger, ACT2600, lightened flywheel, and otherthings that escape me at the moment. T-25 handicapped though. As you can see its a work in progress. Figure if i buy it i should buy it once :)

[ndahbar]

Ok you know what all, whatever. Soon I'll get an ACT2600, fuel pump and 16G, all for about a grand, and then anything short of a Supra Turbo will get its ass wacked. 450i's included. =)

[CustomLeatherGuy]

I think ndahbar needs to stop doing the crack. Especaily with this BMW crap.

[ndahbar]

Hey man, why should you or anyone else you know upgrade their cars w/o doing crack? That's the only way to go bro. You're missing out. Peeeeeeeeace...........

[Donnie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ndahbar:
Please, let's keep it to HP @ the crank, not the wheels. So you say you have 254 horses and I have 215-220? What do you have over my mods(int/exh/1GBOV) but a lightened flywheel?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you only read what you want to read? I have a 16G Killer turbo, NGK plugs, and 8mm wires. I also have my car tuned properly!

[Donnie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ndahbar:
Unles your Greddy FMIC and Profec, and Apexi AFC make THAT much of a difference...and 2.75 inch turbo-back...do you have a straight-pipe Donnie or cat?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A FMIC can net you 40bhp (just so you know ndahbar, bhp means base hp or horsepower at the flywheel). My AFC allowed me to correct the fuel curve for my new 16G Killer turbo and also allowed the techs to dial my car in properly while it was on the dyno.

I have a RS-R downpipe. To the real performance junkies out there, that means that there is no catalytic converter. Sorry I didn't explain that more clearly.

Now then, all of this was dialed in properly while the car was on the dyno and hooked up to the computer. My pulls were made before my Greddy FMIC was installed and the boost was set at 14psi. Why 14 psi? Because I don't have any of the upgraded fuel components to support higher boost and I want this car to run dependably not just quickly.

Is there anything else I can explain for you today? :rolleyes:

[Jehu]

Sorry ndahbar, have to agree with Donnie here, the only way you are making 45-50 more HP just with catback, k&N and 1G BOV is with a 50 shot nitrous!
By the way Donnie, bhp stands for brake horse power, as far as I know. It refers to the particular method horse power is measured, and is calculated at the crank.

[ndahbar]

Oh oops, sorry I somehow missed that 16G killer text at the beginning of your sig! =)

Anyhow, err, so you have 254 REAR WHEEL horsepower? Ok, that I definitely see with that turbo and your other mods.

And as was posted yeah it's brake not base HP. ;-)

Well ok, sorry about all the misunderstandings posted between all of us, doesn't matter, no hard feelings to all, I know how some people can act up a little needlessly sometimes (not that I'm pointing fingers!). =)

Well this whole post was about how kick ass BMWs are for their HP ratings. Now with a 16G, even an M3, slightly modded even, will get killed. But man is it fast anyway! I have personally seen one go from 80mph to 100mph on the highway in a blink of the eye!

Good luck to all with your future ventures, and mods. Enjoy your ridez, and keep the great discussions going! Peace.

[ndahbar]

PS: Just to clarify then, here's what I got so tell me what you guys think crank HP is on this GSX:

-1G BOV
-K&N
-turbo-back 2.5 inch exh. (2.5 inch hi-flo cat)
-2.25inch (I think) Upper I/C pipe
-NGK, Magnecores

So if STOCK is supposedly 210HP (I think that's horse***t, cuz boost is like 10psi at 6000RPM with T-25 stock car), what is it at now, truly? =)

Soon...very soon...16G, injectors, pump, and ACT26000. Can't wait. However even with those I wonder if I'll smack down an M5 from 0-150, heheh.

[Talonted]

Donnie, with all the mods you have you should be well over 254 hp at the crank. You SHOULD be darn near 300 hp or better which should be around 255 or so hp at the wheels. What gives?

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- Trent

[Jehu]

Hey Talonted,
I believe Donnie said he was only running 14psi, due to fuel system limitations. I'm sure race gas and &gt;20psi will change the HP figures.

[greenstreak]

I thought that was a little low in the hp dep. too until I read 14#. As a boost junkie it pains me to hear someone only running 14# ;)

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1995 Talon TSI fwd http://www.geocities.com/talonboy_91/images/smileys/camper.gif

[Donnie]

You guys are absolutely right. I should have more power, but here's the deal:

I want a car that's fast but also dependable, hence the 14psi. My turbo upgrade flows more air more efficiently and is not putting any more stress than the car was designed to withstand. With race gas and 20# I'm sure the car would turn out 250fwhp easy.

[ndahbar]

You mean 350bhp. ;-)

I like your philosophy about the psi thing. But you know go ahead and do 16psi for the extra 15 horsepower (at least, probably 20).
The air is much cooler now than with your ol' T-25, so your car's parts can afford it. :-)

-Nizar, rethinking whether 20psi on a daily driver with 16G is a good idea or not. :-)