Ok just the facts Taboo Speed shop.

[AL92]

I ordered and paid for a billet clutch fork on oct 15 ,2004.
My original email was answered promptly and money was paid and accepted.
Since october have had not one email or pm answered.The website was updated once in january or so.There is no phone number given on the website.Those are the facts.

[Black97TSIAWD]

The site was updated again recently and he says his email is now fixed. BTW this thread will be closed because dsmtalk is not an answering or messaging service for Martin, but I understand why you are upset.

[AL92]

His site was updated about January 2005 and he has never aswered one email or pm.I would like to hear from anyone that has recieved any part since about october of 2004.We don't want you to be an aswering service for Martin even if he is a moderator on this site.You said simply state the facts.Thats what I did.He didn't ship the part since the order of october 2004.He has never answered one email or pm even after it was supposedly fixed.His website is still up and as far as I know still taking payments on things that it appears will never be shipped.Time to stop protecting Martin and let him answer for himself.He can clear things up quickly by actually emailig or pming his customer.He can ship the items or perhaps give refunds.
You wanted factual vendor review.This is very factual.Don't close this thread!! You are doing many people a diservice that might still send him money.
There are lots of old posts on this site saying he was honest and had great products just a bit slow to ship.There is a problem here and people have a right to hear it and Martin can fix it up if he wishes.

[nukefission]

And the fun begins! :eek:

This is the first post in the new Vendor Review forum and so far it is legitimate. Kudos to AL92 for staying civil.

I know there are numerous customers of TSS out there just dying to get their two cents in. Now that we've opened this can of worms, those posts are legit. HOWEVER, rest assured that if I detect the slightest amount of defamation this thread will be gone before you can blink an eye. Well, maybe not that fast but pretty quick!

Stick to the facts and then shut the hell up.

[Black97TSIAWD]

If you have had a problem with fraud over the internet, contact the FBI they handle those problems, and will investigate your claim. I've lost money over the internet before, but have never filed anything, although I know that you can. Here you go, file a complaint....

http://www.ic3.gov/

[kristmen]

The problem is the feds really do nothing.

I know I'll never seen the clutch fork I ordered. I gave up contacting martin and just contacted his local pd and spoke to a detective. Funny thing is they have already gotten other calls about him and they do know whats going on. I'm just going to keep calling weekly until I hear something. Sooner or later they will get sick of everyone buggin them and investigate.

I'm trying to remain civil but damnit the guys still taking peoples money and not shipping product.

He has to know sooner or later they are going to show up at his door with a warrent or something. I just dont understand what he is thinking.

[90eclipsegst149]

Thank you for vendor reveiws!!

I order a slave clyinder rod and some buching from TSS in oct. and have not recvied anything. Hope thing get solved soon, I like to know what going on.

[Black97TSIAWD]

The problem is the feds really do nothing.

I know I'll never seen the clutch fork I ordered. I gave up contacting martin and just contacted his local pd and spoke to a detective. Funny thing is they have already gotten other calls about him and they do know whats going on. I'm just going to keep calling weekly until I hear something. Sooner or later they will get sick of everyone buggin them and investigate.

I'm trying to remain civil but damnit the guys still taking peoples money and not shipping product.

He has to know sooner or later they are going to show up at his door with a warrent or something. I just dont understand what he is thinking.
Well unless the laws warrent local pd to do anything, they won't. Also, people complaining on the internet isn't going to work either. Your best bet is with the feds and if that doesn't work show up at his house. We lost 3000 dollars in TTA heads to a guy in Virginia who is dead if we ever show up at his house (j/k lol). But, besides filing several complaints usually nothing ever happens, you know Credit Card companies only prosecute about 25% of all identity theft, kind of sucks when you realize the people that rip you off hardly ever get in trouble for it. Well let's at least hope that something happens because it does suck that so many people are without paid parts, but if it hasn't happened yet, I wouldn't count on it. Good luck to you though.

[Lancer14]

I sent Taboo Speed Shop, aka Martin, money through paypal back on July 8, 2004 for a rear active toe elim kit. I never got anything, and eventually gave up after several emails and PM's.
I filed complaints with the FBI Internet Fraud Division as well as the Des Moines BBB. Neither of those complaints got me anywhere. I've pretty much given up any hope of getting a refund.

Chris

[GS-T]

If you have had a problem with fraud over the internet, contact the FBI they handle those problems, and will investigate your claim. I've lost money over the internet before, but have never filed anything, although I know that you can. Here you go, file a complaint....

http://www.ic3.gov/
I have used this site twice. The first time resulted in nothing. The second time, the case actually got handed off to the seller's local authorities. I got my money back in the end. It's at least worth a try, since it does work sometimes.

[kristmen]

Well unless the laws warrent local pd to do anything, they won't. Also, people complaining on the internet isn't going to work either. Your best bet is with the feds and if that doesn't work show up at his house. We lost 3000 dollars in TTA heads to a guy in Virginia who is dead if we ever show up at his house (j/k lol). But, besides filing several complaints usually nothing ever happens, you know Credit Card companies only prosecute about 25% of all identity theft, kind of sucks when you realize the people that rip you off hardly ever get in trouble for it. Well let's at least hope that something happens because it does suck that so many people are without paid parts, but if it hasn't happened yet, I wouldn't count on it. Good luck to you though.

Thats crap. Read the fallowing URL.

http://www.countypress.com/1editorialbody.lasso?-token.folder=2003-09-21&-token.story=54588.111215&-nothing

Local law here in Michigan doesnt warrent them to do shit when one or 2 people complain but when a dozen, 2 dozen, 3 dozen people file complaints, its no longer civil. It turns into a felony. I know someone who was taken by that guy here in Michigan and the police finally did something because they got sick of harrassing phone calls from all the people he burned wanting to know why the police did not want to do there jobs when all of these people knew about each other, all of them had been taken by the same asshole.

Finally the police detective being bugged said ok if you can get X ammount of people to file complaints to me, I'll take it to are Prosecutor. Which they did, and they issued a warrenty.

Honestly though the guy didnt get much out of it. He got a felony, did a day in jail and had to pay back about 1 4th of what he stole and it took them over a year and a half before he did anything.

There is a thread on some yahoo message group about the whole thing. Google is your friend if you want to find it ;)

Everyones in for the long haul if you want to get anything done via the police.

[Black97TSIAWD]

Thats crap. Read the fallowing URL.

http://www.countypress.com/1editorialbody.lasso?-token.folder=2003-09-21&-token.story=54588.111215&-nothing

Local law here in Michigan doesnt warrent them to do shit when one or 2 people complain but when a dozen, 2 dozen, 3 dozen people file complaints, its no longer civil. It turns into a felony. I know someone who was taken by that guy here in Michigan and the police finally did something because they got sick of harrassing phone calls from all the people he burned wanting to know why the police did not want to do there jobs when all of these people knew about each other, all of them had been taken by the same asshole.

Finally the police detective being bugged said ok if you can get X ammount of people to file complaints to me, I'll take it to are Prosecutor. Which they did, and they issued a warrenty.

Honestly though the guy didnt get much out of it. He got a felony, did a day in jail and had to pay back about 1 4th of what he stole and it took them over a year and a half before he did anything.

There is a thread on some yahoo message group about the whole thing. Google is your friend if you want to find it ;)

Everyones in for the long haul if you want to get anything done via the police.
How is what I posted crap? That link is an extraordinary situation, like I said sometimes the feds come through, sometimes they don't. Also, not every local pd is going to do the same, those people are lucky it happened that way. If you are persistant something might happen but it will take a long while, already people have almost been waiting a year, how much longer are a lot of people going to wait before they just say screw it? Either way, this thread at least insures that no one is going to get burned again, and the proper way to file complaints and try to get your money back.

[kristmen]

How is what I posted crap? That link is an extraordinary situation, like I said sometimes the feds come through, sometimes they don't. Also, not every local pd is going to do the same, those people are lucky it happened that way. If you are persistant something might happen but it will take a long while, already people have almost been waiting a year, how much longer are a lot of people going to wait before they just say screw it? Either way, this thread at least insures that no one is going to get burned again, and the proper way to file complaints and try to get your money back.

I just ment the police will most certainly do something if they are bugged and enough people got burned. Thats all.

They just dont like to deal with that crap. Thats why they blow most people off.

I dont see how this is any diffrent then they guy in Dryden. He sold stuff, didnt deliever and still takes peoples money.

That news story left out alot of info. That makes it sound like this guy didnt have anything he sold.l If you find the yahoo group about it, that guy did sell alot of legit items too but he also burned alot of people.

[nukefission]

I'd love to keep this love fest going, but already it's been demonstrated that threads here can't be left alone for a day without people overstepping their bounds.

NABR folks: you know that I'm a NABR regular. I understand the perspective and what's bothering you. This website is under new management now and as such is subject to changes that not everyone approves of. In spite of that, I'm still loyal to my position as a mod here and am doing my best to mitigate the BS to the best of my ability. Short of that, absolutely NO ONE is putting a gun to your heads to frequent this board so why the hell do you care what transpires here? I've made this point to Hal once before already (I'd delete your account if I could, but you'd probably come back anyway, read once in a while as a guest, and get pissed off all over again). Take a hint guys, if you don't like it here then get out <-- this should sound familiar to you.

Another thing to the rest of you, take your petty threats offline or better yet, shove it. This forum is for facts, negative or positive. Anything beyond that will be removed. If it persists, the thread will be closed.

Martin is a mod here which does make the situation awkward. We don't excuse him for what's going on. We haven't even seen him around here in nearly a month, so we know as much as you do.

I've removed all the extraneous posts from this thread.

[hindle]

Martin is a mod here which does make the situation awkward. We don't excuse him for what's going on. We haven't even seen him around here in nearly a month, so we know as much as you do.


Here's what I don't get then...If you guys won't excuse him for what's going on, then why would you continue to tarnish your reputation by keeping him a moderator?

One of my good friends got screwed by Martin, else I really wouldn't be posting on this topic.

[cbilmer]

I understand your feelings on the matter. I've been screwed once or twice myself (not by martin). In all honesty though, you should be taking it up with Martin. Although it is difficult if he's not answering PMs or emails. There are other methods. I hope everything gets straightened out. Taboo is a very valuable asset to the DSM community in how he is willingly devoting countless hours to helping others free of charge. And of course making us laugh now and then.

His business and the board are not one and the same. I read this board because I learn alot and enjoy reading the stories and whatnot. I think this stuff should be kept away from here. Take it up with the BBB if you have to.

[thimages]

NABR folks: you know that I'm a NABR regular. I understand the perspective and what's bothering you.

As an NABR regular you should show that you have some integrity and disassociate yourself from being a moderator here.

I recall a certain person doing something similar when a sponsor turned into a scam artist.

It's embarassing to see you turn a blind eye.

Maybe you aren't NABR material after all?

Hal

[AL92]

I agree to keep this factual.I think people can pm each other if they feel certain actions should or could be taken.I am content to just state facts.I live thousands of miles away in another country and can't do much.I dont expect much really but I just wanted to let people know my facts.I have not got my fork and its now april ,2005.I have never got a date of delivery,an update ,an aswered email or answered pm.Zero.And I will never ever do business with a company that doesn't give a phone number for contact or list a full first and last name.

As for moderator well that is up to this board and its other admins to decide what they want to do.At least they are letting us now state facts so keep it simple guys.You ordered it like me on x date and you never heard anything since.I am curious who actually got a part and when that was.

[nukefission]

As an NABR regular you should show that you have some integrity and disassociate yourself from being a moderator here.

I recall a certain person doing something similar when a sponsor turned into a scam artist.

It's embarassing to see you turn a blind eye.

Maybe you aren't NABR material after all?

Hal
You are in no position to judge my integrity and character and I feel stupid even dignifying your post with an answer. Not everything that transpires here occurs under public scrutiny, nevertheless I fight for what I believe in.

[Turbo98]

nevertheless I fight for what I believe in.

What is it you believe in? Letting your members get scammed just because you are a fellow moderator with this guy? This is a DSM community, but lately you moderators have made it seem like communism.

[anconover]

This talk of martin has been going on for some time, but people still are ordering and sending him money... Why? if people are reading these reviews, then what are you thinking? And if you sent paypal money, file a report with paypal, if he doesnt prove within 7days or w/e it was shipped, you get your money back. If you sent a CC payment, call you CC company and ask for a reversal... It can be done.

[hindle]

nevertheless I fight for what I believe in.

I'll echo what Turbo98 just said. How can you honestly "believe" in scamming and screwing over fellow DSM'ers? Are you sticking up for him just because you're both moderators here? Are you trying to take one for the team?

Just because someone HAS helped out the DSM community before doesn't mean that they're doing it anymore. I'm not sure if you caught what Hal was saying, but there has recently been a very well known DSM vender who has gone the same way of bending over his customers. It happens, but there's no reason to stick up for them. Go check it out on NABR.

I hope enjoy your DSMTalk membership/moderatorship, because if I get my way, you won't have your NABR membership anymore. I'm really in awe that you're supporting him.

[anconover]

you will end up getting this closed. He is not scamming, or screwing people. He originally started out offering things for DSM'ers, i dont think he planned to get this big. With the accidents hes had hes been unable to keep up, and became swamped. Hes in over his head for the time being, and probly should have sent money back and closed down buying, but hes not out to scam people. He is legit.

Its amazing, people have been complaining for a very long time, yet people are still purchasing things, and then coming back to complain.

threatening with getting NABR accounts taken away is a joke. A memeber of NABR might get bored 1 day so ban someone. Ryan decide one day he was bored and he told me because of so he was going to delete my account. Boy i cried for weeks (yea friggin right).

You may as well close this thread now, it is going to goabsolutely no where.

[thimages]

You are in no position to judge my integrity and character and I feel stupid even dignifying your post with an answer. Not everything that transpires here occurs under public scrutiny, nevertheless I fight for what I believe in.

Do you honestly expect anything to change here?

The emails I have received from the site owner would lead me to believe that sponsors can do no wrong here.

With that said, yes, I will judge your integrity and character by what you do here.

At some point in time you have to take a stand. If that means voting with your feet, then so be it.

I asked that my account on DSMTuners be deleted because of this same issue over there.

I've voted with my feet and I've asked that my account here be removed.

What will it take for you to take a stand?

Hal

[thimages]

With the accidents hes had hes been unable to keep up, and became swamped. Hes in over his head for the time being, and probly should have sent money back and closed down buying, but hes not out to scam people. He is legit.

If he can't ship product, he has no business accepting payment.

Doing so, in my opinion, makes him a thief.

If he's well enough to accept payment then he better be boxing up products even if he has to do it while laying on the floor.

There is NO excuse for taking payment and not delivering.

Hal

[anconover]

hes making the products he sells. I dont stick up for him saying what hes done is right, but im also not going to bash because ive had no problems with him etc.

[diambo4life]

Hahahaha..you NABR people in this thread are so full of yourselves, you really are. Why do you keep posting here if it pains you so much? Just banish yourselves from DSMTalk and save the Admins the trouble. We value what our members and moderators have to offer here. You have no right whatsoever to "judge" anyone's integrity or character. None! I follow what Anconover has said but I choose not to go into any details. Again, if you don't like being here, stay the F' out. It's that simple. Let the people with genuine complaints post their experiences and keep the thread on topic or else, it will be locked. The thread is solely about experiences with TSS, keep the other BS out.

[DSM Loki]

all i want to say is that anybody thats saying martin is such a bad person, start your own business, do everything yourself, get as big as martin's business is, see how long it takes before you fall behind to the point when your quiality of life is significantly reduced. he's probably busting his ass working trying to get 1000's of orders shipped while still trying to live life satisfactorally

[Turbo98]

. Hes in over his head for the time being

The time being?? He has been over his head with some customers I know for 9 months... There are probably plenty more that are over that amount of time.

Its amazing, people have been complaining for a very long time, yet people are still purchasing things, and then coming back to complain.

Not everyone read this post before there purchase from Taboo, so I don't understand why people keep rubbing this in

You may as well close this thread now, it is going to goabsolutely no where.

Yeah, just like every other time the DSM'ers get together with the same opinion that the moderators "dont like us talking about". It's just like you guys to throw your weight around when there's something you don't like, or one of your own is talked down about. Just like I said before COMMUNISM!!! He IS ripping people off, no matter what the excuse behind it is. He has customers money, and they have no product. How can you even call that anything else?

[Black97TSIAWD]

Jesus Christ to this post :rolleyes: . Is this the 9/11 review board, stop taking it so seriously. There are ways to get things accomplished here, which I posted. Your disrespect and personal attack on someone else who has nothing to do with it, and who you have no reason attacking their personal integrity really shows your maturity and lack of respect. You are using the internet to spread the word of your stupidity and it is dually noted, your affliation with NABR gives anyone who doesn't know what that is a real bad impression. My advice is you shut your mouth and move on friend.

[anconover]

also break your back and try to sit around making parts. I bet its not so easy. Martins had some unfortunate accidents happen that has put him as behind as he is.

[Turbo98]

all i want to say is that anybody thats saying martin is such a bad person, start your own business, do everything yourself, get as big as martin's business is, see how long it takes before you fall behind to the point when your quiality of life is significantly reduced. he's probably busting his ass working trying to get 1000's of orders shipped while still trying to live life satisfactorally

Understandable... but why not give a phone call to a customer to tell them he is behind ALOT. He doesn't have time to make a call? or to send emails? or even a bulk email to everyone that has ordered? Or is he too busy receiving money to respond or ship??

All i'm saying is why does he keep accepting the payments? With absolutely no response?

I am not a member or NABR and I have not ordered anything from Taboo, nor do i ever expect to, but I just hate when people get ripped off and when the mod's step in like they are here. There has been PLENTY of times where they need to and have... but also there has been alot of times where they had no buisness locking the thread, deleting the post, banning members, or dishing out those "big threats".

[Black97TSIAWD]

Understandable... but why not give a phone call to a customer to tell them he is behind ALOT. He doesn't have time to make a call? or to send emails? or even a bulk email to everyone that has ordered? Or is he too busy receiving money to respond or ship??

All i'm saying is why does he keep accepting the payments? With absolutely no response?

I am not a member or NABR and I have not ordered anything from Taboo, nor do i ever expect to, but I just hate when people get ripped off and when the mod's step in like they are here. There has been PLENTY of times where they need to and have... but also there has been alot of times where they had no buisness locking the thread, deleting the post, banning members, or dishing out those "big threats".
I understand but they are mods, what can you do? If you don't like how things are run, you don't have to be here no one is forcing you to post here. All things are run unfairly, it is life. No one here is going to be able to help you with the problem, the tools were given on what to do, if the people who got ripped off choose to do nothing then they should stop complaining, if they do something they should stop complaining, unless something is resolved these posts are senselous, I doubt he is getting new orders. If someone actually makes a break through that would be reason for a new thread. I'm not saying your complaining but I have read about this stupid shit for 4 months now on every forum and it gets old at about a week, I think Taboo/Martin is pretty well known in the dsm community as someone not to buy from.

[anconover]

Because you are a moderator doesnt mean you need to stick up for 'the dsm community' as you said. Taboo's relationship with the moderators of this forum really has nothing to do with his business. Its a seperate issue. So anyone can support or not support whoever they feel in these kind of cases.

And in everycase did the taboo threads need to be locked. Vendor discussions are not prohibited in 'parts talk' or the 'newbies forum'. Hence why they were locked, and this one continues to stay open. There is now a forum for this (as long as things are kept civilized).

If people cant stand the 'management' then there is no reason to stay around or clutter threads arguing about it. Its alot easier to ignore it, or leave.

[AL92]

I am an old guy maybe on the board.I am 47 .I have had businessses even had one go under thru no fault of my own it happens sometimes.
Here is a few of the key issues.First and this is why I think a lot of people are upset,he was a regular on this board ,in fact posted on the 16 of march think it was and never once mentioned any personal problems accidents or anything.
Everyone knew he made quailty products and I assume up till maybe october or whatever he was shipping stuff.I was offered an in stock fork in feb 2004 but waited till october to order one.So he was shipping quality product.There was no scam then .
and may be no scam now.
Its just bad business ,you advertise and email address,answer it very fast and take the money and paypal as far as I know won't give me money back after 30 days.And 2 to 4 weeks listed on the site pretty much covers that.
Anyway you want to make customers really mad ,don't communicate,don't answer emails,pm no phone number no last name.BAD BAD business practices.Don't matter how busy a person is you have to communicate with your customers.Even if that commmunication is not good news like we are six months behind but we are trying to catch up.That is better than nothing.A generic in january vague update that orders will be shipped within a month is not going to cut it and mentioning email is now fixed yet I would like to hear from one person that actually got an email or pm about their product since january or even a bit before.
If the company is bankrupt then shut down the website ,make a public announcement.Obviously don't take any orders until you have filled the ones from six or more months ago.Curious to see who wins the prize for longest unfufilled order.
And if you have thousands of orders and got too big well then should have enough
smarts to hire help or farm out some work.
The guy was decent and made good products but this silent treatment is only making everyone smoking mad.All we have is second hand info from anocover and other people.He came on the board and said hello and didn't say one thing to indicate a broken back or any other problem. We care because the guy did make good products and did seem to help the dsm community.I used his emmissions mod diagrams .

So again why not just say your story guys ,dates and details and yes I think we do hope for some resolution or closure even it the final outcome is his website is down ,he is bankrupt..whatever.

Businesses come and go and people get burned sometimes it happens.Its this twilight zone that drives you nuts.

[anconover]

you have first hand information from him on his website. he told you the deal, thats it. He started this business as a side thing, i dont think its a real big business deal. Hence why you dont see it getting the attention it needs. Alot of small dsm companies are run this way as you see (RNR etc). Most people knew ahead of time the problems. But everyone just complains on the boards.

You have the option to reverse CC payments, and paypal payments. Its a hassle no doubt, but complaining will only get you so far on here if you cant get ahold of him.

[Iceman21]

For the record, I just checked and you cannot order anything from TSS on the website.

[Van]

Hal makes some valid points here that demand explanation. I'll copy this post in case it gets deleted and try to answer to the best of my ability as I consider Hal a friend. So I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

I do not know all of the facts, nor pretend to. I will post what I've seen posted, only because of Martin's lack of response here. Maybe it will help, maybe it will hurt, you decide.

DSMtalk used to have an owner and a mod team that did not like vendor posts or interference and preferred lots of hands on moderating. The new site owner and new self-appointed admins (some are NABR regulars) apparently do not agree with that stance.

Hence a few of us have stepped down or not reappeared or are in disagreement with the new owners and admins. The new owners and admins have also brought on a slew of newer unapproved vendors. In fact, I PM'd one such new admin the other night and have not gotten a reply back yet about the Bullseye vendor situation. I would say that most of, if not all of the former mod team vehemently disagrees with it. So a stand is being made by some and has been made by others. The new ownership here is about money and online arcades, NOT DSM's like the old owners. This new dsmtalk is a fake as far as I'm concerned thus far.

About TSS, DSMtalk had an end all "no vendor complaint post" rule. Pretty simple because whether it was Taboo, Martin or moderator or friend, it didn't fucking matter. It may have looked bad to some, and everyone especially Martin, knew that. I personally think that maybe part of his absence was him trying to distance himself from this board because of those issues. I don't know.

He broke his back late last year and was on pain pills and in rehab. In Jan., an update was posted at his site. I believe that he was overly optimistic at that point about his recovery and meant well. In Feb., he was in a severe automotive accident that sent his head into a window and back onto more pain pills and rehab.

I do not know if any money was accepted during that time frame by him for services. If it happened I'm sure he was planning on being able to get things right sooner than they possibly could have, given the situation, but that's only my thoughts on it. Martin has always seemed like a stand up, straight up guy about that stuff. I'm sure that in time he will either supply product or refund money to everyone. What that timeline is, I have no idea. I'm sure that the combination of the medical bills and not being able to work have probably eaten him up from every angle and cost him everything. I'd also bet that he'll make it back somehow.

Having said that, it's safe to say that you shouldn't order any parts from TSS right now. He is a one man show and the show is having severe health issues. I do not know if he can even stand up at a CNC machine right now.

Hopefully Martin will post here and clue us in. Until then I'd expect parts if you paid for them. I don't know when and I completely agree with being mad about his silence and taking of money given his circumstances if that happened.

[K_Mans_TSI]

wow i wish i was a member of nabr so i could have my membership revoked for being a member on another board, holie crap u guys are stupid. glad i make my OWN parts and don't bother giving anyone help with shit

[diambo4life]

Thanks Vern for posting that. I didn't really want to do it but yeah, there it is. Maybe some of you may want to know what the fuck is going on before getting your panties all tied in a bunch. I believe (100%) that everyone will get their stuff or refund wherever. When? That's the big question. As of now, Martin isn't in a good state. Some of us who have had closer contact with him in the past few months haven't really heard from him for about 3 weeks which is unlike him, but, he has serious issues (personal) that are more demanding at this particular time. Martin is no scam artist. I stand by that statement all the way.

FWIW, I just used his torque plate a couple weeks ago which he let me borrow. Oh and NO, I'm not giving you any contact info. Don't waste your time.

[Van]

wow i wish i was a member of nabr so i could have my membership revoked for being a member on another board, holie crap u guys are stupid.

Arrgghh! :mad: Off topic here guys sorry. Man, you just misunderstand it. As with anything in life, there is a certain something about your actions on this planet and even your posts on a dumb internet forum. It is called honor my friend. Go read NABR's board and you will not see much off topic post whoring or piss poor grammar. You will see straight up guys posting about DSM's, honorably.

Martin was an integral team member here for a long time. Shit happened and we understand that, but there is now a growing gray area that he needs to address, one way or the other. It's not about nabr vs dsmtalk vs toonerz. It is about honor and Hal has called that out. In my opinion it is up to Martin to answer up or those of us who consider him a friend and his customers will be left hanging. Martin will post because I believe he is an honorable man.

The new owners here have brought on an unhonorable vendor. Alot of people know the history, but it now seems that the dollar is mightier than honor here.

Both situations need to be addressed.

[nukefission]

I have taken a stand but it's been in private, only among the admins and mods here, out of courtesy. This is what I was trying to get at earlier. You guys need to understand that I AGREE WITH YOU! Not once have I said or even acted like I "supported" Martin in his recent actions. Now Van has laid it all out and I'm in total agreement with him. The difference between me and the other mods who've retired is that I'm willing to stick it out a little longer, try to rectify these errors in judgement by the new owners, and see if any good can come of this mess. What Hal and some other folks don't realize is that I've been fighting along side them on the issues in question. The same thing that's been argued in PMs to John and Dan by you guys I've been arguing for as well.

Did it ever occur to any of you that this Vendor Review forum was created to provide a level of accountability not just for Martin but any vendor who's reputation has been called into question? We want Martin to participate and explain himself as much as you guys do. We aren't harboring him or defending his actions, and yes we do worry about the impact his actions are having on his character and the credibility of this site and its moderators.

As for my NABR membership, I value it for the reasons Van mentioned. At the same time I'm trying to do what's right here, be it out in the open or in private.

The issues here are important so I'm leaving this thread open for the time being.

[Bazza2541]

It's embarassing to see you turn a blind eye.

Maybe you aren't NABR material after all?

I have been following the Taboo story for a while now and although I am not directly involved, I feel I have to say something about the above post.
This type of post will get the thread closed and should be deleted.
Dont slag off the mod's they can and will delete you.
Be very careful about printing libilious comments on a public forum.
Shame on you! You really should know better.

[ntjoe]

I spoke with ekool via email and he cleared me to chime in from time to time. Martin did come over to vendors-reviewed.com and post an explanation:

http://www.vendors-reviewed.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=113

If you search that site you will see for a number of months there have been posts regarding his lack of communication and lack or order fulfillment. While I have not personnally ordered from him, I run vendors-reviewed with boostedinaz. I set up that site due to the lack of a centralized complaint site for DSMers and other auto enthusiasts. Since I have not ordered from him, I am not going to chime in any personal comments, other than from the threads on my board, he has taken money for some time, up until recently.

If any vendor wants to explain any problem they are having, they can do so on vendors-reviewed.com. I would encourage Martin to step forward and tell the community what it going on completely. I have found that most auto enthusiasts, DSMers included, can be patient if they know what is going on. Communication is key. It can make or break a business very quickly.

Mods, if I have overstepped my boundries here, please feel free to delete or edit my post.

Thanks, Joe

[Dsmman]

DSMtalk used to have an owner and a mod team that did not like vendor posts or interference and preferred lots of hands on moderating. The new site owner and new self-appointed admins (some are NABR regulars) apparently do not agree with that stance.

Hence a few of us have stepped down or not reappeared or are in disagreement with the new owners and admins. The new owners and admins have also brought on a slew of newer unapproved vendors. In fact, I PM'd one such new admin the other night and have not gotten a reply back yet about the Bullseye vendor situation. I would say that most of, if not all of the former mod team vehemently disagrees with it. So a stand is being made by some and has been made by others. The new ownership here is about money and online arcades, NOT DSM's like the old owners. This new dsmtalk is a fake as far as I'm concerned thus far.




And these are the exact reasons I also decided to step down as a moderator. DSMtalk will take on any vendor as long as they have money. DSMtalk is a business and the new ownership will run it as such, I was told. There is no integrity left. I want no parts of this fucking mess.

[Dsmman]

I shold also say, this isn't a shot against Victor or any of the origional moderators.

[Lancer14]

I'm starting to get a different perspective on the mods/former mods over here now.
I ordered my parts in July of '04. After about a month I began emailing to the addresses listed on tss.com with no success at all. All the time Martin was here posting on a daily basis. I finally broke down and tried PM'ing him here. He replied to my first PM, but nothing after that. I had the PM receipts showing that he was reading the messages I was sending until one day I noticed that they had all been deleted. I'm not trying to start more stuff here, but I don't understand how those receipts could've just disappeared. It seems to me that somebody would've had to access my account and delete them. This was by far the thing that pissed me off most about this whole situation.
Before the board went down I was in contact with one of the moderators. He was attempting to contact Martin on my behalf. The one time he got any information it was Martin telling him that my money had already been refunded to me, which is a total lie.
I just don't understand how somebody can mean well when it appears that they're making attempts to ignore or cover up the whole issue.
There's a bunch of parts that TSS offered that I could really use or would love to have, but its so hard to believe that Martin means well when he's had my money for 9 months and counting now.
I do appreciate the fact that this forum was created, and I'm glad that this information is getting to the public. When I contacted Paypal they told me that they couldn't get my money back. I asked them if my complaint would be made public so that others would have a warning before sending their money, but they said that wouldn't happen because of confidentiality reasons.
I also filed complaints with the BBB and FBI Internet Fraud Division, neither of those got me anywhere. I think its safe to say that me and the others who are waiting on refunds or parts are completely at the mercy of Martin.

Chris

[anconover]

whos idea was it for this stupid topic forum anyways? :eek:

[ekool]

Just to clear up alot of lies that I've seen posted in this thread by the moderators who have stepped down.

1. This site is a business, and we will run it as such. This means running the best operation we can run for both the users and the vendors.

2. I was unaware of any previous problems with vendors mentioned, and we are trying to investigate it. So far, the only information we have is rumors. I wont 'assume' someone is guilty because of rumors, sorry if I need more proof then that.

3. If the proof surfaces, and we see a problem with a vendor, we will act. All new vendors are being approved by the admin team, and the current moderation team can attest to that. Sorry that "One" _MIGHT_ have slipped through the cracks.

4. When making accusations about the administrator and moderator team, I would appreciate it if you could stick to ONLY the facts, and not make false statements.

5. We have added this section just for this type of discussion. If we were "all about the money" we wouldnt allow you to say anything negative about supporting vendors. We allow you to because we feel the user community has the right to know. The same rules apply in this section to vendors and non vendors alike.

[boostedinaz]

I have never bought anything from TSS because I heard that people were starting to have problems with him and now it has turned into this. Everyone has problems, that is true, but he still had acces to a computer and a phone. He could have easily put a sticky thread up stating what was going on or even used his own page to give a better update than what he did. He could have called someone else to do the same. All of this could have been fixed in a few simple minutes, but he chose otherwise. I have PM'd him to see if perhaps he would be willing to make some sort of a comment on our vendor page to follow up on his first one. I got the same response all of his customers got. NOT A DAMN THING. I could really care less about the politics between boards, but alot of you defending him keep talking about honor, pride, respect, community and how NABR and Talk used to uphold those values. The irony is that one of you highly respected members has show none of those to anyone. He has not honored his request for parts, he has not had enough respect for his cutomers, friends, or the community to say anything but some lame general statement, and yet you continue to defend him and say he is a good guy. I think it is time for HIM to give updates, for HIM to tell everyone why he cant seem to pick up a phone or use his page to give updates, for HIM to come in and defend HIMSELF.

It is obvious that everyone that knows him well could give two shits about what he is doing becasue he is there friend. No matter what facts are brought up, he still gets defended and is still in contact with these people who gaurd him from the people he has screwed. Yeah, all those people are very honorable, respectable, and help the community. :rolleyes:

[greenstreak]

Some people with their communism and nazi moderating really crack me up. We follow the rules that are set out by the owner/admin of the board. When a member breaks a rule they instantly feel that they have been wrongly corrected, banned, or editted when in fact it was that person who had stepped outside the rules setup for the board. Simple as that. We don't choose when and where to enforce the rules. But of course when you f*ck up and we correct it you weren't to blame. It was the nazi moderators. Grow up and take some damn responsibility for yourself.

In this case we are accused of fronting or sticking up for Martin because TSS threads in the past have been locked or removed. That was the rules reguarding customer service issues or vendor complaints. It happened no matter what the company was but because Martin was is a moderator here people feel that we are making the threads disappear to protect him. Wrong! We were doing our jobs. Now that the rules have changed somewhat under the new ownership we have a forum like this to bring up these very issues.

I have tried to help a few members here with issues reguarding TSS but the fact is non of us have been in contact with him. Personally I think Martin is a good guy but I do think that this is bad business for whatever reasons. He has had hard times, very hard recently, but I think business wise things might have been handled better. Who am I to say though, I am not in his position and won't pretend to know exactly what is going on.

[greenstreak]

As an NABR regular you should show that you have some integrity and disassociate yourself from being a moderator here.

Being a moderator here doesn't or shouldn't put our level of integrity into question. All of the moderators have different opinions on the goings on of the board. Many of us don't agree with every aspect of how things are run or what is allowed and not allowed. We do not know everything in this situation so how are we to condemn a man that we have worked along side of for some time without giving him the opportunity to confront these problems in the public eye.

[mark93]

also break your back and try to sit around making parts. I bet its not so easy. Martins had some unfortunate accidents happen that has put him as behind as he is.

How do you know he makes his own parts??
HE DOESNT!!!!!!
How do you know he has a shop??
HE DOESNT!!!!!!!!

Why do I know, because me and Martin were good friends at one time. If you want to know why we are no longer, look at the intercooler on his car..ITS MINE!! I paid 700 for that thing. We put it on his car to see how it would run. I have gave up getting any money from him.
I dont know where he is or what he is doing. And I dont care.
But he is ripping people off period.
Why dont some of you guys who know him by internet only come to Iowa and look him up. You may suprise yourselves.

[Iceman21]

How do you know he makes his own parts??
HE DOESNT!!!!!!
How do you know he has a shop??
HE DOESNT!!!!!!!!


And what is it that you have stated makes your story believable? I could tell everyone I went to school with Martin and he jacked my intercooler, does it make it true? Hell no, unless you believe everything you read on the intraweb.

How am I or anyone else supposed to know that your intercooler in on Martin's car? Does it have mark93 engraved on it?

Where are the grammer police?

[diambo4life]

And what is it that you have stated makes your story believable? I could tell everyone I went to school with Martin and he jacked my intercooler, does it make it true? Hell no, unless you believe everything you read on the intraweb.

How am I or anyone else supposed to know that your intercooler in on Martin's car? Does it have mark93 engraved on it?

Where are the grammer police?

No shit.

...and yet you continue to defend him and say he is a good guy. I think it is time for HIM to give updates, for HIM to tell everyone why he cant seem to pick up a phone or use his page to give updates, for HIM to come in and defend HIMSELF.

Martin didn't tell ANYONE to defend him here or give "updates." I will guarantee you that 100%. Where the hell did you get that piece of info.? That's very unlike him anyway. He fights his own battles and whenever he chooses to address this crap, he will. The people defending him on this board believe in him (partially or wholly,) whether that pleases or pisses you off doesn't really seem to bother us or me in particular. :) .

Again, we are still back to square one. All this complaining has yielded nothing really than draw hostility towards different parties which is stupid. I am not downplaying the legitimate people who are still missing their parts or money, they are out there - but we sure do notice the people who pop out of the woodwork just to slime or slander Martin's name since they may have had an axe to grind with him in the past. Who knows? You be the judge. ;)

[Turbo98]

but because Martin was is a moderator here people feel that we are making the threads disappear to protect him. Wrong! .

How do you explain these people's pm's disappearing? None of mine are gone from the day I signed up here.

[neo2142000]

Well I also live in Des Moines. Martin does not have a shop, and does not make his own parts. I dont even know if he has owned a DSM as of lately.

[JayC]

There are very few people here who can delete PMs and that will NOT be tolerated. I can check the administrator log and trust me, if I find someone deleting PMs, heads will roll.

On the flip side of that, we didnt recover 100% of the former DSMTalk database so it's possible some stuff didn't make it back.

[nukefission]

Ok guys, the free ride is up. There were some important issues that needed to be addressed here so I cut this thread some slack. I think by now all the legitimate points that could have been made, have been made.

On the phantom PM issue, no one's PMs were intentionally deleted by any of the current and former mods or admins. Before the board went down last year it was having some major problems so unfortunately that's the best explanation we can give you. There are no cover-ups going on here. If there were do you really think this thread would have been open for so long?

I probably sound like a broken record by now, but this time I mean it. Any post after the period at the end of this sentence that does not conform to the topic - or the rules of this forum - will be removed.

[me612]

I'm chimming in as I too was a TSS victim. My order for the rear camber kit was placed on August 19, 2004. Paid the money paypal. According to his site, it takes him awhile to ship out the stuff. So by the time I decided there was a problem, it was too late to get my money back via paypal. I've contacted the BBB, they gave up. I pretty much consider myself screwed in this situation. I have never heard a word from him. Not 1 email, phone call, nothing. It sucks, but I figure it's a tough $80 lesson learned.

[blacksheep]

* MOD EDIT - this post can stay, but I trimmed the fat a little - MOD EDIT *

Once again, here are the facts:

- I live in Des Moines and have since 1994
- I owned a gvr4 that Martin had put an engine in and Mark fixed several issues on it.
- I have met and hung out with Martin in Marks garage where he ran his "shop" outta.
- He did not make his own parts. He had no laithes or CNC machines.
- He ported all the heads on a bench there. I have been witness to this as well.
- Mark's FMIC is on that car - We have discussed it with Martin several times. when things were civil between them.
- On his site, where he had posted his car ran a 11.1, absolute BS, that thing has not been to the track, ever.

I can go on and on with more actual facts. Please visit galantvr4.org and ask how many people have had issues with him.

Yes, Mark is a great friend of mine. One of the most talented I know of. But, this post is to not side with Mark. I have been around Mark and Martin a while.

I always thought Martin was a good guy at heart, also smart and innovative - but I thought he wanted to achieve too much and lacked the drive and ambition to do so.

I am not lying or beating around the bush - I used to be a moderator for a while on galantvr4.org. Check my post history there.

Its sad that so many people lost their money. I hope they get it back - thats just not right.

I am trying to keep things civil. I pray and hope my post is not deleted. It should not be...It follows the thread title which refers to the straight facts about Taboo.

Thanks for the space and good luck to everyone!

[redawdturbo]

I almost ordered some parts from Taboo a little while ago. I didn't even think twice about it, until i saw the thread on Nabr about him ripping people off. I always thought he was a honest reputable guy since he has been a moderator here for so long. He also seemed like a pretty smart guy. However, his current situation is hard for me to understand.

Martin always said he didn't depend on his business to make a living like other vendors. He said it was basically for his own enjoyment and to help DSMer's out with some more specialized products. So, if he didn't depend on the shops income before to make a living why would he need to now? If he had a regular full time job, it seems like he would be taken care of through their insurance/disability programs when he got injured. After his injury he could have stopped taking orders(and peoples money) if he was unable to fill them.

What makes the situation so bad is that he appears to be avoiding the issue. I don't understand why he doesn't just address it publicly here. I don't see how he supposed to be able to moderate a board and hide from all these people that are trying to get ahold of him at the same time.

[nukefission]

I should add that Martin has not actually moderated anything since the board went back up. He posted a couple times but disappeared after that. If he were moderating now and acting like everything else is normal then that would be a different story.

[kristmen]

I have a fact for everyone, I paid for my clutch fork and he has my money and I have nothing to show for it and I never will.

[Wilk1976]

I have ordered several parts from TSS in the past and have received them all, no problems there.

[stapl3]

For the record, I just checked and you cannot order anything from TSS on the website.
I had no problem trying to pay for a clutch fork 2 minutes ago.

[Iceman21]

That is BS. I just went and attemped to do it and you cannot checkout. Once you get to the paypal checkout page, it will not accept any payment.

Linky (https://www.paypal.com/cart/add=1&amp;business=email%40taboospeedshop.com&amp;item_name=1G%20AWD%20rear%20toe%20link%20eliminator&amp;item_n umber=0008&amp;amount=49.00&amp;shipping=5.00&amp;shipping2=1&amp;return=http%3A//www.taboospeedshop.com/thanks.htm&amp;cancel_return=http%3A//www.taboospeedshop.com/cancel.htm)

[bastard2g]

I got some clutch pedal bushings and slave cylinder rod last summer. It took 2 months and a lot of fighting,stress and pm's to get them.

I see the same 4 people defending him on here.

4 out of 20 customers are satisfied.

I admit that there are a few dsm owners that are just impatient kids that want thier parts now and it probably drove him crazy.

He did post a lot of info on here and his site that helped lots of people.

Not only does he not have a lathe but I found some of the bushings that I bought from him in a hardware store. Believe it or not. If you want proof, paypal me 10 bucks and I will send you a tss clutch pedal assembly kit.

He has made a name for himself even with the owners of the fastest dsm's. John sheppard,dave buschur and a few others have made negative comments on his bussiness practices and his untrue theory's.

[redawdturbo]

That is BS. I just went and attemped to do it and you cannot checkout. Once you get to the paypal checkout page, it will not accept any payment.

Linky (https://www.paypal.com/cart/add=1&amp;business=email%40taboospeedshop.com&amp;item_name=1G%20AWD%20rear%20toe%20link%20eliminator&amp;item_n umber=0008&amp;amount=49.00&amp;shipping=5.00&amp;shipping2=1&amp;return=http%3A//www.taboospeedshop.com/thanks.htm&amp;cancel_return=http%3A//www.taboospeedshop.com/cancel.htm)

Thats probably because Paypal finally shut his account down due to all the complaints for refunds they've recieved. :)

[QuickOne]

I dunno what is going on but I ordered a Stage 2 head from him last April and got it back in priscine condition in May. That head flows like crazy and he (or whoever) did excellent work on it.

[FiveLterRiceEat]

I dunno what is going on but I ordered a Stage 2 head from him last April and got it back in priscine condition in May. That head flows like crazy and he (or whoever) did excellent work on it.

Yeah that was before ALL of the problems started. Back then it was just little orders like extension pins, forks, and toe eliminators that where not being sent out.

[AL92]

So since I started this thread thought would say a few things. So still no sign of the mysterious Martin? Why did he post when the board came out and not post since?

I can't understand this guy at all. If he is still alive and he didn't say anything at all about accidents or being ill when he posted several weeks ago then can't understand why he won't make some statements to his customers or fellow board members.

If he is bankrupt and closed his doors than say so. I would mabye be more understanding if heard that. But to hear absolutely nothing is much worse and more maddening than if he just said its shut down.

At this point in time the odds of him getting any future business from me is likely zero and sure anyone who orders anything from him now is a crazy fool but again we have Martin the businessman and Martin the moderator or dsm owner. Its not up to me to decide on if he should or should not be a moderator anymore and at this point since he has disappeared dont' think he much cares.

[eyebrowski]

Its not up to me to decide on if he should or should not be a moderator anymore and at this point since he has disappeared dont' think he much cares.

I believe his moderator status has already been revoked.

[kristmen]

Anyone else get that PM about contacting the DA in Iowa about Taboo? I just noticed someone posted some info over on Vendor Reviewed about it too.

Info posted was: District Attorney Stephen Switzer ( 515 ) 281-8771 etc etc.

I guess if any of you havent already called, give it a try. I'm going to call on Monday and see if they are really even doing anything.

Has anyone else even called anyone about this?

[1gThaiboxer]

:mad: I paid $229.00 for the tss clutch fork, pedal bushings, and slave rod shipped. This order was placed on August 20, 2004 and have NOT recieved any products. :mad:


:) Previously I ordered the rear toe eliminator kit and recieved that product in about 45 days, way too long but happy to see something for my money :)

[kobykris]

Why don't you guys get together and higher a private investigator to find his home/business and then get together and go knock on this spineless peice of shits door?

That might change his mind about being a scammer. Just my two cents, I've seen this work before ;) People have homes/families... they just don't dissapear ;)

[kristmen]

Um I have his address, so do the police. What good does that do?

As of right now, no ones charged him with anything wrong. If anyone showed up as his place knocking on the door he would just refuse to speak to them or tell them to leave and when they don't, or they argue they become the person trespassing or harassing him.

I had a friend get burned for an engine. He was within driving distance of the guys house and after the cops did nothing he just went to the guys house. The guy told him to get the fuck off his land, my friend refused without his money or his engine the guy called the police.

Guess who was in the wrong? The police didn't give a shit about my friend getting ripped off.

Also another thing. I don't know if Taboo's Speed Shop is LLC or not but if it is the chances of anyone ever seeing there stuff or there money is slim.

I happened to tell a friend about this crap whom is a city attorney and he said well do you know if the guy is LLC or not? I asked what that mattered and he said well if he is LLC, you don't do business with him, you did business with HIS business and that makes it much harder to go after him from a legal stand point even if you know who he is. Makes it harder for both a private person to sue him or the police to charge him with anything.

This might be part of the reason the police and attorney generals are doing nothing. I know they have enough complaints to do something but the guy might be LLC.

I'm noticing most small business owners are going that route now days to be protected from being sued and other issues that might come up from owning a business where you deal with a customer base.

[bmwmon]

Ive ordered a slave cylinder rod from him and received it in a timely manner. Mind you this was a year ago.

[eyebrowski]

His site has finally gone down. Good or bad news, I don't know.

[gaylant]

I ordered a extended slave rod from him a few years back and it took about a two months to get it. I am happy that i recived it though.

[eyebrowski]

I ordered a extended slave rod from him a few years back and it took about a two months to get it. I am happy that i recived it though.


I don't think that there is any argument that he has delivered in the past, it is his recent transactions that have gone bad.

[95stktrbo:(]

His site has finally gone down. Good or bad news, I don't know.


That was bound to happen eventually.

[mavisky]

That was bound to happen eventually.

Unfortunately there was some good info on some of those pages that may be lost forever now. That is unless someone made a copy of those pages somewhere.

[nukefission]

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.taboospeedshop.com

[thegreatms]

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.taboospeedshop.com

I love the web archive.

[eyebrowski]

I saved all his tech pages to my computer before the site went down. If anyone needs any of the info let me know and I will host it.

[Rembrant1]

I saved all his tech pages to my computer before the site went down. If anyone needs any of the info let me know and I will host it.


I would apprieciate that. Good looking out....

Also, I did fight a fraud situation for a turbo ($1100). You do have options other than BBB and THe FBI Fraud prevention site. YOU MUST TO CONTACT THE ATTORNEY GENERALS OFFICE YOUR STATE AND THE OFFENDERS. I filed in my state and the state the offender lived in. Anyway, within 2 weeks i was contacted by the perp and recouped all but $50 dollars (shipping costs). He was sent a letter by both offices stating the consequences of his actions if any of it could be substantiated. Also if anyone has sent money orders (that is wire fraud) and a major no-no. Just because its a year since the infraction doesnt mean you dont have rights. I'm personally fed up with the dishonesty on the net. Honestly these sites need to follow up on whom they allow to advertise. Remember darkside racing and that huge headache?

[K_Mans_TSI]

it's not the websites responsibility to hold your hand when making internet transactions. and people wonder why i don't do ebay, if i can't drive to the shop to get something in the event the internet is down then i won't buy from them. (with the exception of forced performance)

[DSM Loki]

while at shootout i heard, whether its true or not i dunno, that martin lost everything and is living out of his shop. basically his health problems got him behind, and everybody attacking him pretty much destroyed his life. i just hope he ends up alright and everybody gets their stuff, on time or not

[Rembrant1]

it's not the websites responsibility to hold your hand when making internet transactions. and people wonder why i don't do ebay, if i can't drive to the shop to get something in the event the internet is down then i won't buy from them. (with the exception of forced performance)

I feel bad for martin if these health issues are true. BUT THAT DOES NOT DETRACT FROM WHATS HAPPENED. Taking orders when you cant fill them is wrong. PERIOD! Let's get one thing straight... Having websites hold your hands and promoting questionable establishments are not two in the same. Thats like hiring a cashier who has a conviction for shop lifting. Not good business decision and probably would have potential patrons looking at you half cockeyed.
Secondly, do you think this advertising is free? Someone has to pay and get paid for it. Websites like this have an obligation to checkup on who they promote. This isnt taking a dig it's reality.

I donot have shops around me that carry DSM products. Many of which require you to buy them up front since we dont drive hondas. I chose to buy from sponsors since they are promoted. Odds are its much safer.I also expect them to be on the up and up (HELL even moderators make plugs toward that fact). Does this mean the sites should be held responsible. HELL NO!!! BUT!!!! If issues or patterns arise where businesses do wrong they need to be held accountable, having them remain a moderator or promoting them only makes institution as a whole look bad. Just common sense ethics.....

[mavisky]

The problem lies in the fact that he wasn't able to produce items that people payed for because the medications he was on kept him from being able to work, but at the same time it was the money he took which was the only way to pay for the medication he needed. Pretty much a lose-lose situation. This is a major problem with starting a business on your own is that your health insurance is provided out of pocket for the most part. Something alot of us get from our employers he had to provide for himself. I'm not saying that what he did was right, just that given the situation I'd be hard pressed not to take the money as well.

[Burnett03]

if you lost money, i feel for you, it sucks

[nukefission]

This saga has gone on long enough. I was hoping Martin would stop in at some point and contribute here, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. If he or someone who knows him wants to post something further to this thread in the future, send me a PM.