4g64 in an awd talon

[camaro22]

I know that you all will think I am crazy, but I have just completed a swap of a 4g64 into an 95 AWD talon chassis. The 4g64 came from a 96 spyder that was wrecked. I found the talon chassis on ebay and decided to give it a try. I used the turbo 4g63 injectors, and throttle body, ECU, 5 speed trans and drive line. I had to relocate some of the wiring to work with the 4G64 cam sensor and actually had to swap the coil feeds to get it to fire. I did not use the turbo, I just left the stock 4G64 SOHC alone and bolted it in. Hey , I am 41 and really don't need the added headaches of the turbo. (bad experience with a 91 tsi a few years ago) I just wanted an awd car for driving to work in the northeast winters. The car is up and running and everything seems fine. No check engine light and it starts, idles and drives fine. My question is will I run into fuel mixture problems? WIll I eventually need to add a fuel ratio control of some type? Any other possible issues that I have not thought of? I know that I have not run it enough for all of the diagnostics to be run. I plan to license and insure the car in the next week or so and then put some miles on it. AM I really crazy? My wife sez so!!

[gtsiawd96]

Interesting...

[Dallas J]

Why didnt you just buy a subaru?

-Dallas J

[camaro22]

Because I like DSMs!! This is the DSM site right?

[Fullthrottle7]

How difficult was it to get the engine into your car? I have a 95 TSi and am planning on doing a 4G64 turbo swap soon. Did you use a 2G engine mount for the driver's side, or the one on the 4G64? What did you have to modify on the wiring harness to get the car to run correctly?

[Dallas J]

He already had an AWD talon with a 4g63 turbo in it. For you to swap from the 420a you need a full engine harness, ecu, driver motor mount and mounting plate (good luck). Im not sure about the other mounts though.

Normally, its not worth the work.

-Dallas J

[Turbo98]

Crazy... yes.

If I were you I would hook up some kind of logger to check all your fuel trims, knock, ect. Go from there. But definatly keep an eye on that.

[camaro22]

Fullthrottle7 - The 4G64 engine slipped right in. I used the original TSI mount on the trans on the right side and used the 4G64 mount from the spyder on the driver side. The front and rear mounts are the same. SInce you car is a TSI, you already have a 4g63 so it will not be near the trouble as going from a 420a to a 4g63/4. I agree that doing that is way too much trouble. If you plan to turbo your creation, I assume that you will be using a DOHC head and in that case, the wiring should be done as described on other threads as if you are using a 1G CAS to generate yuur crank/cam signals.

Turbo98 - Should I be concerned? Is running lean the concern or running rich? I am experienced in working on engines and know that lean is the worst scenario. I have been learning as much as possible about engine control, but have yet to dabble with data logging or external fuel/air controls. I guess I should do some searching the old threads to learn what I can. Can you recommend a good logger? The car has a SS catback 2.5 exhaust and a K&N filter so I was hoping that with enhanced airflow and more displacement, the fuel mapping might be close enuf for the ECU to compensate if it ever gets to closed loop?? As I said I know just enuf ECU theory to be dangerous.

Thanks for the help.

[Spyder1gdsm]

Turbo it and use the 4g63 head. you got the kickass block now :cool:

[Asmodeus]

Considering that engine runs normally with 275cc/min injectors... You have doubled the out put, w/o an increase in air flow. :rolleyes:
Read between the lines
-----------------------
PIG RICH=you
-----------------------
Why someone would put an engine like that into an AWD car w/o the intention of building a friggin' monster is greek to me. Dude, you're halfway there. Go use the excuse of running too rich and buy a S-AFC to tune down the injectors, swap the head. Put the turbo BACK on, and run LOW boost. lmfao... and you'll still have 250+. (8-10psi, the stock pistons are JUNK)
:rolleyes:
Run 6 or 7.
I don't care if you're 81.
You did the work... enjoy it. JEEZ!? :rolleyes:

[camaro22]

I know that all would think I am crazy. I did not modfy anything in any way to prevent me from going back to the turbo. At first, I did consider going with the DOHC 4g63 head. Problem was that I am not 100% sure what is involved, and when I tried the links in the thread on top of this forum, the links do not seem to be working anymore. I did read somewhere about blocking some ports on the 4G64 block?? Anyone know the details of what must be done? Are the oil squirters necessary? The more I think about it, I agree that I should put the turbo back on. I guess I do not know enough about data loggers and S-AFC's to be comfortable with that end of it. looks like it is time to learn more. Is there any good threads out there to review the basics? Searching those terms returns a large number ot threads with little basic theory.

I have the original turbo engine and it is complete and was running but with a bottom end knock. Crankwalk?? How do I tell, should I be able to feel excessive endplay in the crank? Since I already have the 2.4 bottom end in the car, I guess that it would not make sense redo the 2.0 bottom end anyway.

A few years ago, I had a 91 TSi talon and it was nothing but trouble which is why I was reluctant to stay with the turbo engine. Since I already had the perfectly good 4G64 complete and running in the spyder, I thought to myself, SOHC normally aspirated 2.4 would be enough for me, especially with a few intake and exhaust improvments. But now, the throught of 250+ has really got me thinking. I am underestimating the reliability of a turbo setup? At the lower boost setting, will the reliability be there? I do need to rely on the car as a daily driver for work.

There seems to be enough knowledge and helpful members on this site to be able to work thru the problems, so I guess I will start planning for the DOHC head swap and turbo reinstall. You talked me into it!! :rolleyes:

[Asmodeus]

WOW... you're right, they're down. Luckily I printed that stuff out...
But like any good geek stuck behind a computer all day... I found where it went. LOL!
http://www.4g64.com/users/raycer97/
Then you just pick if you're using 1G head or 2G head.
They have a complete walk through for either. :D
Which kicks ass.
A few minor details... I'd like to throw out there for you as well.
That 4G64 has about 141hp/141ftlb stock.
With the DOHC head on (especially if you track down the good 1G cams.) you could add almost 20 hp.
The 1994 Galant GS came with a 4G64 DOHC engine stock. This will be the car you will need to buy parts for, because that is basically what you will end up with. (Timing belt ect)
This car had 165hp w/10-1 CR. The SOHC 4G64's are 9.5-1 CR.
Did I mention the stock pistons are sketchy? Many people can account for 10psi, but at that high of compression on a fairly weak stock piston I wouldn't find out. If you were going to do any bottom end work swapping out the stock pistons for an even newer stock replacement might benefit you.
The rods are the same as a 2G 4G63. No worries...
There's a kid on Galant speed that bolted the turbo setup on the stock 4G64 SOHC motor (it will bolt right up) and has 8K miles or so at 9psi and has had no problems. His motor had over 100K before the turbo. He swears he doesn't beat on it though... ;) Many others are turbo as well, but that was a stock motor that should be toast by now. Figured it was a good example.
The reliability is there if you keep that boost turned down... :D
And tune accordingly. The compression is high, you'll need to watch for knock. Oh, that wasn't HP I was throwing at you... that was ftlbs of torque. :rolleyes:
Glad your up for it!

[camaro22]

Thanks for the quick reply. SO If I understand correctly, I can unbolt the stock SOHC 4G64 exhaust manifild and bolt on the turbo manifold et al? Seems to me like the SOHC head would not flow as well as the DOHC, but that would be quick and easy to do. :)

I have tons of 4G63 parts, including several 1G heads. So the 1G turbo cams are a better choice than the 2G? I know that I have a warped 1G turbo head with good cams. This is starting to get interesting. so many options..... :rolleyes:

If I decide to go with a DOHC head, will the timing belt tensioner, etc from the 2.0 4G63 work, or must I get the galant parts? Thanks for updating the links for the head swap. I will go and print it out and start studying. ;)

[Asmodeus]

Ok the cams you want are 93-94 turbo 5 speed cams.
The lift on the intake AND exhaust cam is .39XX
All other years they rotate between a .39 and a .38xx cam
One bigger, one smaller on each. Makes no sense to me. But that's deal.
I'd use the 1G head. They're known to have bigger ports in the head as well. (But that's just me) Some people take the 2G because they want more material to start with when porting. I just did a quick smooth and open on a 1G. Good enough for me and free. :rolleyes:
The SOHC head uses the exact same bolt pattern for the intake exhaust manifolds. So yes, slap it on and there ya go. HOWEVER, you can't use the intake manifold since the injectors on a 4G64 are plumbed into the intake manifold and not the head like on a 4G63. So forget that much.
Spool on a 14B w/ the SOHC head happens around 2500rpm. :eek:
The DOHC head is a different and much better flowing animal.
The heads combustion chambers are the same enough to change compression at all and have the same cc. Weird huh?
You will need the 4G64 DOHC timing belt, can't remember which tesioner.
I have an extra though (Galant one) so no worries.
Your cam gears will be off a 1/2 tooth from time tho. Read UP. :D

[camaro22]

I have finally got the car registered and on the road. I have about 300 miles on it so far. It's getting about 25 mpg and no check engine light yet. Yes, the bulb works. I put a 91 turbo throttle body on it with a K&N filter and I forgot to mention earlier that it has a 2.5" Stainless exhaust with high flow cat and muffler. Airflow has been increased, but I am not sure if it is enough to lean it out to where it whould be. I have not pulled the plugs yet to see how rich it is burning, but plan to soon. It is kind of loud, but it is a blast to drive. I plan to run it like this for a while to shake down the rest of the car while I get the stuff together to put a DOHC head and the turbo back on it. Wife thinks I have totally lost it.

On the topic of putting boost back on it, I have located a head and 91 turbo cams. I plan to have the head checked and the valves done by a local oval track engine builder.

If I buy the 94 Gallant DOHC head gasket, will I still need to block the holes in the block?

I have read that adjustable cam gears will compensate for the 1/2 tooth error if using the stock 4G63 sprockets. True??

I figue that if I have to buy new sprockets, why not put the cash toward a pair of adjustable ones.

[Asmodeus]

The last time I dry fitted the head on the block the head doesn't even cover the holes. And the head gasket might have the holes in it for the block. They're not pressurized, just drain gallies for oil. I plan on finding a tap and putting some flat machine screws in with sealant to block them up. As long as they don't upset the head's seat. Anything will work. Some kid used trimmings from a pop can and gasket maker... :rolleyes:

Yes adjustable gears will work. Set it down on a bench and remark it with a GS gear. And the 4G63 gears aren't actually off a half a tooth. (I read what I posted, sorry for not being clear) The timing mark is. You can still use the stock gears you just have to be aware of the difference. I've held up a SOHC gear to a 4G63 gear and they're the same, except for the alignment on the cam, and the timing mark.
The real difference is in the timing belt itself. It has an extra tooth or so I believe. (I'm going to get flamed, its been a while) I "think" to compensate for the deck height/stroke? No qoutes on that.

So unless you want to for exactness... or to dial in some cams... I don't know if I'd drop loot on a adj. gears.

Still glad you came around! Tell your wife you're allowed to have a hobby. Mine helps... she's past rehabing me on my addiction... :D
Now she's just as bit by the bug. She wants a Del Sol, and a big turbo.

[camaro22]

Thanks for the info on the cam gears. I was looking and the adjustable one are not cheap. If I can get away with the original gears, then that is cool.

So the holes in the block are exposed with the DOHC head on. I did read about the pop can trick, but I can assure, I am not planning to use a pop can.

Depending on the size of the hole, it may be possible to use a tapered pipe tap to thread the holes and then plug them with an NPT pipe plug. I agree that as long as the "plug" is below the deck surface, it should not matter what is ued to block the drain holes.

Sounds to me like the most important parts are the timing belt and tensioner. It makes sense that the timing belt will be different due to the additional 6mm of deck height.

I am really not that familiar with the turbo controls, etc. In order to limit the boost, I need a manually adjustable blow off valve? or is it the wast gate actuator that limits boost on acceleration. Now that I think about it, the BOV is to relieve the pressure when the throttle is abruptly closed, and it is not a "boost regulator". I still have all of the stock turbo parts, but assume that the stock blow off valve is not the best choice.

I told you I know just enough to be dangerous.

My plan is to go at this in two phases. First, I plan to get the head on the car and get it running with out the turbo and then, put the turbo etc, back on. Trouble is that the two phase apporach will mean having to make another custom downpipe for the exhaust. Since the car is AWD, I had to make a special pipe to match up with the 2.4 exhaust manifold and still stay to the driver side where the AWD exhaust runs, instead of running straight down the floor hump as it did in the spyder.

Am I being too conservative meaning, should I do the head and turbo all in one shot?

Any advice on controlling the turbo would be great.

:confused:

[Asmodeus]

I planned on doing it the same way. Since I have a complete ecu swap ahead of me just to be able to run the DOHC head... I didn't want to throw in too many variables at once. So I would say do it as you see fit. :D

I ran into the same question as far as how I'm going to keep the boost down. The kid I asked w/ a galant said his wastegate opened at 9psi? Is that the stock boost for an eclipse/talon? I thought it was higher? He said it was a stock wastegate. He was using a 14b... but it could be a 13b gate? Some clarity on this issue would be nice. Because I'm not certain on any of it.

Your current exhaust setup will work with the DOHC head too. You can use whatever manifold you want. But then you'll have to get a down pipe for a GSX... or use the stock one? Why wouldn't your stock one work still? Wasn't it a turbo car to begin with?

The holes are like dime/penny size but not exactly round. Especially once they start to go down into the block an inch.

[camaro22]

You are right, the original turbo awd pipe should work. Although I am thinking that the added deck height on the block may mean that the bolt at the bottom of the manifild that holds it to the block may not line up without slotting the hole, but it should work when I put the turbo back on.

The 4G64 exhaust manifold flange was different than the turbo flange so I could not use the original turbo awd pipe. The 4G64 downpipe is designed to take the exhaust to the center of the car and the exhaust runs down the center of the floor hump. With the AWD, the drive shaft is in the center and the exhaust is off to the driver side. I had to cut the pipe after the flex and the 02 sensor bung and eliminate the "wiggle" that ran it to the center. Basically, I replace the wiggle with a straight piece of pipe and it lined rught up with the awd exhaust.

When I put the DOHC head on, I can use my modified pipe and the 4G64 manifold, but isn't the head a little bigger, meaning the dimension from the intake gasket surface and the exhaust surface wider on the DOHC than the SOHC. I did not measure it, but just by eye, the DOHC head looks bigger. I am not sure if it is enough to make a difference, but I guess i will find out.

I do think that the two step process is better in that too many changes at once will lead to chaos. I am getting pumped about these mods. I have a lead on a junk 94 turbo laser that may be a source of the better cams. It is a high mileage car, so I hope that the cams are OK.

I see that you are fom PA. I am as well, Northeast PA, near hazelton.

Thanks

[Asmodeus]

I knew you'd have no luck with the 4G64 downpipe...
But I meant when you get to the turbo that your stock one should be useful again.

I am impressed at your ingenuity with the 64 downpipe. :D

I must admit, due to my over abundant poverty your progress is inducing some serious jealousy...
But I shoulda known better when I started with a Galant. :rolleyes:

I don't know where Hazelton is...
I know where North east is... (if you meant by Erie)
Unless you meant by Scranton... like East east... :rolleyes:
God, I'm stupid.

[camaro22]

Near Scranton.

Seems that the 2G cars with blown motors are starting to pop up on ebay pretty cheap. perhaps you can do your 2.4 swap into a 2G vs galant? No offense, please, but the styling of the 2g cars is why I love DSM's. The galant is too much of a family sedan for me, but I guess as I get older, I want to do things that I could not when I was young and was starting my family.

As I move forward with this project, I plan to keep posting on thsi thread to seek help advice, etc.

If you are ne me in PA, perhaps we can hook up and exchange stories sometime.

I am done at work for the day and off to work on my DSM!!

[Asmodeus]

Agreed...
My search is a constant eye reddening madness that will continue until I own one. Thats what I've done all month. I'm just going to buy one, then use the left overs on the galant. (Its still getting a built 63 or 64 turbo engine in it. I have 3 to pick from... lol!) Its just old hat.
As far as the styling though... I did mold a blitz/erebuni kit on it... its not THAT bad... JEEZ :rolleyes: CF hood... mirrors... No stupid wing...
And you're right. I've seen so many lately I decided it was time. I'll get a Talon of course... since I'm poor and they're cheaper...
It just HAS to be AWD. I've conceded to almost taking an A/T if its AWD and the rest is good. I'm that serious... scary :eek:
So I'm rebuilding a stock 4G63T while I look, in case I find a shell I can plop an engine into. Its almost done.
I almost bought a white Talon from Allentown last week!
Thats just south of you. Guy was a joker. :rolleyes:
Wanted $7500 for a 95 with miiiiiiiles.... and a "rebuilt" *Cough* transmission.... it was an auto. ick...