Gains Expected from a Starion FMIC on 1G?

[turboniam]

I figured you guys would know the real deal.

What kind of gains/loss would a car expect if it had a 16g and added a Starion FMIC with all the plumbing that was mandrel bent???

What boost should be run on it???

Is the Starion FMIC worth anything or should you just buy an aftermarket FMIC???

[Red90TSi]

Personally I think the Starion FMIC mod is a great way to waste alot of time and a little bit of money. The intercooler is an OEM part made many many years ago. It has worse pressure drop than the stock system. I'd go with a big Griffin core and be done with it. You will get others who don't agree, but if you plan on doing much with your car I'd go ahead and spend the money on a real IC kit.


As far as how much boost, that'll depend on alot of other variables.

[Peter 92TSI]

Originally posted by Red90TSi
Personally I think the Starion FMIC mod is a great way to waste alot of time and a little bit of money


I think I have to agree with that statement too. I mean it works better than the sidemount, just for the obvious reason that it's mounted in the front. In terms I performance I can honestly say, that my car was probably a bit slower due to all the extra piping, and massive pressure drop through the starion. But overall, it was better than the stock sidemount, because the starion doesn't heat soak. On the sidemount after 3 high pulls, you are done. With the starion, you can keep going.

I am switching to an APEXI FMIC, when I get my custom ic pipes made.

Peter

[firepower]

Edit Dub post but the second has the Pic of the SQ FMIC below :D

BM-
Rdy2race

[Edited by Rdy2race on 08-29-2001 at 04:38 PM]

[firepower]

I have to say the other two replies are right on target. I just took my Starion out and I didn't notice any loss in power. Oh well, I guess I will have to save up for that Spearco 2-178 now.

I will have to admit that I did like the look of the FMIC and you don't get heat soak, so it isn't a waste of time/money, but there are better alternatives. For instance, buy mine off me and you won't have to worry about routing the piping, or rewelding on 2.25" inlet/outlets.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Thumbnail?u=1668774&a=12793280&p=50031946&Width=100&Height=100&Sequence=0

[eto]

I thought this was the advanced section? Moderators?? But its already down to "How much power will this add" questions and talking about the crappy ass Starion I/C.

[Peter 92TSI]

Although I agree that asking how much power a part will add is very trivial, but a discussion about different intercooler alternatives is pretty interesting topic. There are many out there, used by many other people. And people like to disagree what works and doesn't.

[socalgsx]

I just got my 88 quest FMIC put in this weekend and I noticed a huge difference but one thing that I did do is all of my piping is mandrel 2" from the turbo and 2.5 to the TB. After the install I datalogged my car I had less knock the car does not pull the timing anymore my o2's are better the car just performs better and with the hard pipes and all double clamped i did not notice and pressure drop I actually gained( but I could have had boost leaks before unsure)

["Laser"]

Spearco 2-221 is all you need you can get one for around 550 bucks. Make the pipes yourself order some mandrel bends, get some good clamps and couplers. you might have 650-700 in the whole setup. 2-221s have gone 10.56@132(AL Blaha) thats all i need to know.

[RyanV]

http://www.buschurracing.com

Get their intercooler and you wont be sorry.

Just click on it and read about it.

[Rdy2race]

OK posting of URL's are allowed but it's not much info and slanted info from a site isn't help full this is why DSM talk has so much traffic. To get info that is not slanted and opinions also.

About this I/C I agree 110% with the top 2 people and about SoCals car this was only a gain for a few reasons and some Q's./

Did you have the stock IC pipe before this? the stock T body Elbow is a big problem factory when the boost is turned up.

With the mods you have listed, the mystic turbo must be larger :cool: and the other mods just add to the problems. But like you said your using a small lower IC pipe ( pre IC pipe ) and this will yeald gains also.

What I am getting at is this gain your feeling and seeing in the logs can be atributed to other mods not only the I/C. if anything it is only a little better of a I/C but the pro and con's make me say " if you didn't do it your self and spend more then $250 for the whole "schbang" it isn't worth it.

ETO I do see your point we will keep on top of it. But this is border line.

And please save the strait link posts for the lounge. I don't mind links in a post as long as your post has some info and not like a post like RyanV's ( not to bust your ball Ryan, just more info less links )

This is not geared to any vendor but this form is for people that don't want to just go to Dave's site and takje his word for it. many want info ( much like my self ) before I spend 1 cent on a product and many times that info is not compreat or missing from vendors pages.

no harm done we just want to keep this on the higher end of tech Qs and not links.

BM-

BM-

[socalgsx]

I did do everything myself it took about a day. The gains that I am talking about is the day i got my logger I went and tuned, two days later some friend and myself were going to Carlsbad and I wanted to get the FMIC put in so I did. I did not end up racing but that day I went out agian and logged agian and every thing across the board was better. but like I said before I could've had boost leaks, also yes to answer your question before I was running upper and lower mandrel piping and a RRE 2.5 elbow.


And along with everyone I think this is borderline to be moved.

[Crankwalker]

Tom Stangle has been using a Starion I/C for years with his 20g car. I have heard him mention upgrading the I/C but I think he's going to a bigger turbo also. I would be interested in hearing his opinion about this mod as he is one of the few DSM tuning guru's.

[galantvr41062]

I do like the look of the FMIC but they do seem to have a lot of pressure drop(from what you guys say) and you have to worry about it affecting your engine temp and dont they get heat soak? so the simple solution of a differnt type of intracooler sounded good to me. I am looking at Spercos water/air intracooler that will flow 700cfm(they do have a smaller one and a bigger one) small one was like 450cfm and the bigger one was 1500cfm they sell many inlets and out lets, also have custom but you need to contact them for that. also the sperco water intracooler at 20psi only had .1~.2 I dont remember the exactly psi drop and I am mounting mine over my tranny so the IC piping will be really short. The only thing I have to do is decide on the coolent type I am going to use, because the sperco does not come with IC piping or the coolent system. The 700cfm is only $615.00 not to bad I want to do a 9ish 1/4 with it. Just a differnt idea on how to cool down are hot turbos.

~John
sperco inengine bay will also add to my sleeper effect

[Crankwalker]

You'll need much more than a 700cfm flow rate for 9's. Most every turbo that will get you in the 9's will outflow that intercooler and you'll be operating out of it's sweet spot.

[shabby]

The pressure drop that plagues starions i think has to do with the tiny 1.75" outlets. Ill be getting a 2.5" outlet for one side and a 2" for the other, we'll see how much pressure it'll loose.

[nukefission]

What's the benefit of having differing inlet/outlet sizes? I see this a lot and I don't get it. Why not just have them the same diameter... 2.5" or 3" or whatever?

[shabby]

Well the outlet from the turbo is 1 7/8" so attaching a 2.5" will be a bit difficult, plus running that beside the rad will mean some major chopping, 2" pipe will be just fine here.
And since my upper ic pipe(whenever it friggin comes in) is 2.5" so that'll bolt right up to the 2.5" outlet from the starion.

[niterydr]

well the turbo will flow 800cfm and the out let on the intracooler will be 3" and I will have a 2.5 inlet and the out let on the turbo is 2". I dont know if I will egt 9s but I will try my best. I was also thinking water injection adn NOS(200ish) and FULL built motor. Good Luck

~John
if the intracooler does not flow it I will get the 1500cfm one for $900 then, need to look into it more.

[91eclipsegsx16boy]

hmmm... im 14b for life baby...

youll get pressure drop from all the piping and the ancient IC...pressure drop=needs more boost!!! more boost on 14b=heat pump...

ill stick to ducting up my sidemount real good, and get an ic sprayer to kill that heatsoak thang...

-aaron

[FastGSXauto]

I did an experiment to check the pressure drop of the starion. My boost gauge is usually tapped after the intercooler, on the fuel pressure line. I bought about 4 ft of vacuum hose from advance auto and 2 caps. I plugged the tee where I normally tapped the fuel pressure line. I extended the hose that connects to the boost gauge all the way up to the turbo outlet nipple and teed the line that goes to my wastegage, before the boost controller. This way I could see my boost pressure before the intercooler.

Numbers:
After intercooler - 14psi 18psi
Before intercooler - 17psi 20.5psi

These numbers aren't entirely accurate, but I'd say they are correct to +- .5 psi. So there is about a 2.5 psi pressure drop at the boost levels I was running. As boost increases the drop should increase also, but my data didnt' show that.

Can someone run this experiment on the stock sidemount, or any other intercooler for that matter so we can compare? It literally took 5 minutes to do. I really don't think 2.5psi of drop at these boost levels is that bad. I'd like to see what the stock one does.

[91TalonTSi]

Why dont you just spend the little extra cash it takes to get a REAL IC ?? Greedy, Apex , Buschur, all make good IC kits. Spend the extra money now and you wont be sorry later.

If you use the Starion IC , You will be upgrading your upgrade later on down the road and spend twice the money in the long-run.

Just my two pennies :)

[turboniam]

I totally agree, I went with an Alamo Motorsports FMIC for the 1g.

So far I picked up .2 of a second and I think I will get more when the driver, ME, can get my 60fts down a tenth or two AND I think I have a boost leak on top of that.

If you car is constantly searching at idle... going up and down... does that indicate a boost leak or do I have some other problem?

[motorgod007]

you know everyone keeps talking about how the starion IC is so ancient mine is from a 88' my sidemount was from a 90. so i think there pretty much in the same league. so alls you really have to ask yourself is do you want a stock frount mount or a stock sidemount. i know i had knock in 1st and second gear with the sidemount. i put the frount mount in and the knock went away.and i got very little pressure drop, but i havent flanged my pipes yet so i think thats the reason for that. so for me its simple

1. huge FMIC $800-$1000


2 starion FMIC $40
Pipes to hook it up $50
money to go buy other go fast goodies for my car cause i didnt waste it on some huge overkill FMIC...... PRICELess
lol just my 2 cents
motorgod

[91TalonTSi]

Originally posted by turboniam
If you car is constantly searching at idle... going up and down... does that indicate a boost leak or do I have some other problem?

This is not quite the form to talk about this but we will keep this down to one post.... wont we..... :)

1.Check to make sure your Base Idle set screw is screwed in all the way down.
2.Check for a vaccume leak.
3. If this doesnt help start a thread in DSM Tech :)

happy hunting :)

[GSXXXguy]

ok I will try to keep this on topic. So whats the deal then with all these different IC's? Is it per your needs or mods? Like this one is good for that and that one is good for that. I keep hearing that the 16G is not a good street turbo...what is then? And a while back ball bearing turbos were the s**t. I was considering getting a 16G "killer" (on my 1G) because I heard it is ball bearing...hence quicker spool up. And for response time how would it compare to Extreme's 17C? I figure the 17C would be good cause its bigger than the 16G but not as big as a 20G. I know this has nothing to do with IC's but can someone clear up this Griffin core for me. Is that core the same as the Spearco's? The reason I ask is cause I want the proper IC to go with my new turbo...so how do I pick a good size, company and for the money?
Sorry if this doesn't fit in. If you decide it doesn't fit I am prepared to be scolded. Just trying to gather some info.

[91TalonTSi]

Originally posted by GSXXXguy
Sorry if this doesn't fit in. If you decide it doesn't fit I am prepared to be scolded. Just trying to gather some info.

I dont see a problem with what you ask here, Its on the topic of IC's and makes for good conversation. :)

Originally posted by GSXXXguy
I keep hearing that the 16G is not a good street turbo...what is then?

IMO the 16G is a GREAT street turbo, But falls short of a 20G on top end. Some dont like the lag that the 20G has, But its really not that bad. On a Buschur 20G, boost hits 15psi by about 3200 and 20psi by about ~3500 rpm. IMO thats not bad at all, so here again the 20G IMO is a VERY " Streetable " Turbo. It all comes down to, do you want lightning fast spool or bad ass top end ?

Not sure about the 17c, Ive never had one :)

[GSXXXguy]

Well, I'd like a little of both...I like the quick spool of the 16 and thats why I was considering the 16G "killer" cause someone said its a ball bearing design hence even better spool up. I have a 1G and someone told me it wouldn't fit and the IC pipe would have to be modded. But the Mits tech that works on my car said it would work fine with a FMIC cause the "killer" tube is on the bottom instead of the top? Anyone follow so far?
So the 16 ball bearing would offer tire shredding accel but not that great top end. I've also heard that the 18G isn't that great for the money.
So if you clip a 20G to make up a little bit of low end accel would you then lack that top end power thus causing it pointless to get it(the 20G) anyway.
And back to the IC thing.....I know someone here mentioned Griffin....someone has told me they are the same core as the Spearco. ??? And my tech explained to me yesterday that the Buscher would probably be the best to go with because of the design and the short plumbing. I know I have a lot of he said stuff in here but thats why I'm asking...from people who have actually done it and know about this...experience.

[91TalonTSi]

Originally posted by GSXXXguy
So if you clip a 20G to make up a little bit of low end accel would you then lack that top end power thus causing it pointless to get it(the 20G) anyway.


Actually when you clip the turbin wheel, you will loose some bottom end and gain top end.

About the Griffin and the spearco.. Im not sure. Anyone want to help out with this one ? :)

[kid-tsi]

So what is considered the best "bang for the buck" FMIC?
An IC good for 16g-20g street car?
kid

[boostedcat]

Okay, back to the intercoolers. What do you all think would be better, the Supra SMIC or the Starion FMIC. I'd expect the Starion to heat soak less... but I'm thinking the Supra intercooler would have a superior design for flow, and have less pressure drop. Another question I have, is about the pressure drop. With a 20G, do I really care about this? I mean, obviously if I have to run 18 instead of 16lbs, it's not going to really affect my turbo's temps as much as say a 14B or 16G. Also, people were talking about how much the intercoolers from Spearco will flow. Does anyone know what the stock intercoolers flow, and what the Starion FMIC flows? Also, on a side note, where do most of you all buy your pre-fabbed mandrel bent peices from?

Kyle

[kid-tsi]

What is the average pressure drop on these IC's?
Is it normal to have say like a 4-5psi drop?
kid

[91eclipsegsx16boy]

if youre goin bigger than a 16g, get a real FMIC not a hack one

-aaron

[BigTone]

Well, I don't visit here often, but I am really glad that I did. In 2 days I will be installing my starion fmic. I do all the work myself because i love the challenge. and for a grand total of $101 including all the pieces and parts, its definitely a bargain compared to the big $$$ fmic's. I am using all big mandrel upper and lower i/c pipes (dave brode) and 2g tb elbow currently hooked to my stock 13g turbo. I am saving the turbo upgrade until last so that it will feel right at home :) I have prepped the car so that the piping will be routed through the hole (to be slightly enlarged) in the body to the left (as your facing the engine bay) side of the radiator. to do this aesthetically, I am also extending my MAS to be relocated where the smic used to be. coolant overflow will be clipped to the battery case. this seems to be a cleaner installation and will allow some better shielding of the open k&n from engine heat. I got a lot from the technical discussions already and would love to hear some feedback on this idea. I understand the limitations and potential pressure drop issues, but the install is happening for the right reasons i feel. so i will look for your insights and feedback. the whole process will be documented with my digicam to share should anyone be interested. thanks guys (and girls?).

Tony
1g fwd laser rs

[Nitrox]

The abovementioned setup is just about what I got. Short pipes, enlarged outlets, cheap price. I lost about 2-3 psi, but the car pulls like a raped ape on top end and doesn't heat soak for a very very long time. The turbo is a stock 14B, but since I won't be upgrading any time soon, consider it the best bang for the buck mod on the car.

Price list:
core $70
welding: $60
misc pipes and clamps: $40

Another observation - on stock IC, stock turbo would die out under 6K rpms. With Starrion it pulls all the way to 6,600 or so.

I would run some comparison tests but the car is taken apart at the moment.

Oh, and did I mentioned going from 100mph trap speeds to 102mph?

[Edited by Nitrox on 09-29-2001 at 06:02 AM]

[BigTone]

Well, it took 14 hours total, but the fmic and cold air relocation are complete. I would say that creativity, patience and good friends are the key's to success if you plan on doing this install. Also, have a dremel and reciprocating saw to make life easier when it comes to fitment under the bumper. Unfortunately I wont be able to give a direct before and after evaluation because the car goes into the tranny shop today for the shift kit and end clutch install. I will compare it against my previous best of 15.03 though.

Issue 1: idle seems to drop to an uncomfortable 500rpm momentarily when coming to a stop now. odd. no fluctuations that are indicative of a leak since it rises back to 750 and stays there.
Issue2: boost is almost instant now but spikes to 19 before settling in at the mbc setting of 15psi. it used to spike to 16.

Any thoughts on these 2 tuing issues would be appreciated. and thanks again for such a nice technical forum to discuss more than body kits and idle resets, lol.

Tony

[DeepBlue]

Does anybody have a Starion intercooler to sell? I actually have a non-intercooled Starion and need one. If you can sell it fairly inexpensive, email me at: im_gonna_get_you@hotmail.com thanks!

[BigTone]

Well, since I can actually post an answer i will. The results of the install are definitely positive. This was intsalling an unmodified starion fmic. meaning, I didn't enhance the in/out's. I made 3 passes at the track last night. Previous best was 15.0. 1st pass came in at 14.8, 2nd 15.1 (wicked wheel spin, too much boost at launch) and 3rd run at 14.87. other items I noticed I was running much leaners without having changed anything but the fmic and intake location. so apparently I am getting more air at the same boost levels. According to my boost gauge I have had no boost pressure loss. all in all its a fantastic mod that just happens to take an inordinate amount of patience and creativity to carry out. But there are enough vfaq's out there that even I could do it. So if you only have $100 to spare and want a fmic and a little more performance, this is the mod for you. Hope this helps someone.

Tony

ps. it look cool too :)

[klipzracer]

i'd have to agree with the above stated on this one. more money for more goodies. not everyone has money to just throw around. let's come back to reality.

[talon_boy69]

what's better for a starion FMIC, both tubes 2.5 or a 2" inlet and 2.5 outlet???

[Dan4g63]

where could i go to get the piping done or where could i find out more info on the pipes?

[marshall]

i took a bunch of pictures of my starion and cold air (fender) install. check out http://www.streetdynamics.com in a few days (hopefully by monday, 11-5-01) i should have everything up.

my vote is for the starion definately, found one for 25 bucks, piping was free for me (www.skydynamics.com)...

don't have any numbers, but seat of the pants the car is faster. very wothwhile mod.

marshall

[EuroGSTSpyder]

I was just wondering why everyone seems to be choosing between starion,supra or aftermarket IC's(i.e. Greddy,buschur etcetc)? There are alot of IC's that can be used to do a FM on...I am personally checkin up on using a SAAB 9000 turbo IC in front.They have the right measurments and size...I can easily make pipings for it..I am just trying to find out the values for it regarding flow and cooling abilities.There must be ALOT of IC's to be used..right?

Just a thought...dont flame me*lol*

[firepower]

I just gained 21 peak hp and 50 hp at redline. I went from a starion with 2.25" mandrel bent inlet outlet to a 2.5 spearco intercooler. My EGT's dropped 100deg and my timing went up from 16 to 20 deg.

Save the time, get a better intercooler.

FWIW I got my Spearco core used for $275. About the same I got the starion after all the welding and piping. The piping on the spearco was $200 with couplings and clamps.

[talon_boy69]

I bought my car without any intercooler cause it broke in one of this bumpy roads (Puerto Rico) but I was thinking about the Starion FMIC but can't find it, I found a Spearco SMIC, it's 2x thiker than the starion but half the large, Ill be raising the boost to 15 or 16 psi and see the diference!!!

[Rdy2race]

Originally posted by GSXXXguy
Well, I'd like a little of both...I like the quick spool of the 16 and thats why I was considering the 16G "killer" cause someone said its a ball bearing design hence even better spool up. I have a 1G and someone told me it wouldn't fit and the IC pipe would have to be modded. But the Mits tech that works on my car said it would work fine with a FMIC cause the "killer" tube is on the bottom instead of the top? Anyone follow so far?

He is correct this is like the t25 or a TDO-5H that has been rotated to the bottom for shorter IC pipes or a 2G stock pipe install. I am not a big fan of BB turbo's. Not really proven on the street and cost is a MAJOR problem. The "16G KILLER" is over rated. With the turbo and the plates that are used to mount it, this is all where the problems start. Long term effects of warpage to the mounting plates and more chances for leaks is another thing. A 16G "big" is a good turbo and good for 12's on a proven combo. I have a friend with a GVR-4 and a 16G. 12.9 car. EVO GVR-4 FMIC. ( same as SQ FMIC but no mods needed to fit. Pipes face the right way but it is small.)

Yes custom pipes will be needed to make this work.


So the 16 ball bearing would offer tire shredding accel but not that great top end.

Lets not get out of control now :D Only if it's a FWD and any turbo will do that :) Now the 16G killer is BB but this is from the F1 school. Where turbo's need to last a race and not fail with heavy thrust loads on them.With a faster spool time and less friction then a oil bearing turbo they do have less drag. BUT!! ( always a but ) the problem lies in that the bearing are so tough. they do not fail and the shaft rubs it. This goes on to where a oil bearing would fail but the BB doesn't till the shaft snaps. ( it fails ) with this you loose all oil pressure and if this were to happen at lest say 7-8K RPMS this is a long way down with out any oil pressure.

I've also heard that the 18G isn't that great for the money.

Man who do you talk to?? this is a matter of opinion. I for one love the 18G turbo, can be passes off as a 16G to the unknowning ( to fast to be a 14B, so you say 16G :D )with the right combo can make 400+HP

So if you clip a 20G to make up a little bit of low end accel would you then lack that top end power thus causing it pointless to get it(the 20G) anyway.[quote]

As stated above clipping is for top end. And you have a 4 banger when did you get low end :D hehee it's all about RPM's and boost :cool

[quote]And back to the IC thing.....I know someone here mentioned Griffin....someone has told me they are the same core as the Spearco. ???

No not even close. differnt sizes and core design. better core then Spearco but easy to do damage.

And my tech explained to me yesterday that the Buscher would probably be the best to go with because of the design and the short plumbing.

This is true but what FMIC from BR? A top to bottom flow FMIC will have the shortest possable pipeing



Did some one say 17C?? Good for low boost ( 19 PSI and down ) so it makes a GREAT pump gas turbo but is to large to make very high boost B/C of it's weight and size. It's noting more then a Syclone compressor wheel in this housing. They have tons of cores so hence.. the birth of the 17C and 19C TDO5-H Frank Jr. 18G is a much better all around unit IMHO.

Happy boosting
BM-


[Edited by Rdy2race on 11-19-2001 at 01:09 AM]

[FRCFD6]

Another good intercooler wich can hang with spearcos and the griffin is the Porsche 951 (Porsche 944 Turbo S) intercooler. it flows over 750 cfm with little pressure drop. they are somewhat hard to come by though. plus you would have to get the endtanks rewelded....

[FastGSXauto]

BM, what makes you say the griffin is a better core than spearco? The griffins use a tube design, while the spearcos use a bar and plate which is supposed to be more efficient in terms of pressure drop and cooling. Have you heard otherwise?

[FRCFD6]

Originally posted by FastGSXauto
BM, what makes you say the griffin is a better core than spearco? The griffins use a tube design, while the spearcos use a bar and plate which is supposed to be more efficient in terms of pressure drop and cooling. Have you heard otherwise?

btw the porsche intercooler is also bar and plate

[COLSDSMVP]

I Just took my 90 talon to the track w/ the new modded starion FMIC and OH BOY what a diff! :) I picked up .25 thenths. Have you ever cut off the tanks and looked at the core design? I think is should flow great. I just took mine and cut them off and welded on some new tanks with 2 1/4 inch mandrel bends and located them through just like the buschur's FMIC piping. All I have into this little project is like 150 bucks and a little welding practice ;) for the money I think that it was worth it!!



Dan Weaver

[DCJ98GST]

Check this out...

http://www.dsm-performance.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=59

This seems like the best deal I found. Flows 1280 CFM @ 1.5 drop for $599! They can also fab the piping for about $350. I like this one because the top down intercoolers flow the best with the same cooling effects. The piping is very direct. Here are some pictures of the piping.

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/intrusive97gsx/lst?&.dir=/My+Photos&.src=ph&.begin=1&.view=t&.order=&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/intrusive97gsx/lst%3f%26.dir=/My%2bPhotos%26.src=ph%26.view=t

This is what I am going to get when I upgrade to a FPBig28 someday..