FMIC flow rates

[SlowDSM]

Ok, after upgrading from a big16G to a 20G, and not seeing much performance gain, I'm looking at my Greddy "small" FMIC as being a bottleneck. I have been told the small Greddy FMIC only flows 500cfm, which certainly isn't enough. I have also been told the "large" Greddy FMIC doesn't flow all that much more, it just has more surface area.

So I'm doing my research, trying to find the best FMIC upgrade for me. I want a side-to-side flow IC if at all possible, just because I hate the way the top-to-bottom units look (it can't ALL being about going fast :)), but if worst comes to worst, I'll get one. I want something that will flow enough for my 20G, but also be sufficient if I upgrade to a FP Green model, Mutt 4, etc. Here are the options I'm considering, and if anyone has good data on the flow rates of any of these, I'd be really interested in finding out.

Spearco 2-178 core with HKS tanks (from RRE)
Griffin side-to-side core with HKS tanks (from RRE)
XS-Engineering 2G Eclipse kit

Also, if anyone has baseline flow rates for the 2 Greddy IC's, I'd be interested in seeing those as well, since my info is not verrified.

[dyezak]

If you want the highest flowing side to side unit out there, with the shortest piping (all polished also) look up Buschur. That thing is humongus...and I'm not even talking about his full race IC :) Thats the one I'm going to purchase to go along with my 19c Frank Jr.

[SlowDSM]

Buschur's FMIC doesn't fit 2G's, does it?

[widebody]

the intercooler from dsm-performance flows 1230cfm, i just bought one for my mutt3. only downside is that it doesn't come with pipes but for the price it's a bargan

[SlowDSM]

Yeah, I know the guys that run the shop. I talked to them yesterday, and the cores are out of stock right now, and not only that, I don't know of anyone in my area (Austin, TX) that does mandrel bending to build the pipes. Maybe I could buy generic mandrel bent pipes and have someone weld it up... where is a good place to buy cheap mandrel bent pipe?

Also, most aftermarket IC piping is 2.25". What are the pros/cons of running 2.5" pipe. It will be used with a 20G turbo for the time being, then maybe a Mutt 4 or a FP Green later on.

[widebody]

i believe most aftermarket intercoolers are 2.25 in and 2.5 out to the throttle body, you should be able to go to a muffler shop and get the mandral pipes, hell they may even do them for you and if they have never done it before you'll probably get a deal on it. Stay away from the greddys, from what i here the small is only good for 400-500cfm and the large isn't much better. There was a post on here from someone saying he went to a large greddy from a spearco 221 and lost performance and was switching back.

[blunttwister]

i am also very interested of the flow rates of the griffin side to side. 20x10x2.75, gives you a good size fmic,looks like it should flow very well. why dont more people use these intercoolers, they look just as nice as greddy, but at half the price and better flow. maybe some people like to say they have greddy.
here is a couple pics of the griffin s/s if you havent seen one
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/parts/icpics/20x10-39-15.jpg
i plan on getting this one
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/parts/icpics/20x10-39-39-offset.jpg
here is the pic of the inside, yeah i think it flows well.
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/parts/icpics/20x10-endflow.jpg

actually i should be able to get the flow rates for all the griffins, a friend on mine is a dealer for griffin. so if he doesnt know them, then nobody does.

will get back to w/stats.

later

[galantvr41062]

I am going with a Mutt level 5, I like the look of the front mounts on the Gvr4 but performance is a top priority so I am going with a Sperco water to air intracooler. it will flow 700cfm with 3"out let for the throtle body and it mounts over you tranny so the ic piping is short. they also sell a bigger one that flows 1500cfm. I can provide the link if you want but its at Top end Performance for $615.00 for the 700cfm no ic piping though. and you need a seperate water system to cool the IC. other than that DSM-performance does sell nice ic along with buschur. Good choice on the Mutt I think they will be some of the best turbos selling with a warrenty.

~John
LSE performance engineering and design

[Toast]

Most people aren't interested in fabricating a FMIC. They go with what's available which means Greddy, A'pexi, Buschur, etc. I personally chose to make my own FMIC. It uses a custom ordered Griffin core w/ HKS endtanks and 2 3/8" tubing (finding 2 3/8" tubing is damn hard...). The core measures 24 x 10.5 x 2.75 and it flows side to side. Pretty damn big. You can't even see the endtanks inside the fascia opening. All you see is core :)

I can't remember the flow rates offhand. I'll have to check. But I know for a fact it flows well over 50lb/min. I wanted to make sure it could handle a 20G (flows 45/lb min) with ease. I have the flowcharts and specs somewhere so I'll post if I can find them. When I ordered my core, my friend ordered the 20 x 10 x 2.75 core and it flows about the same as mine with a little less pressure drop. I'm sure either or will be able to handle a 20G. I'll know for sure as I'll be upgrading to a 20G most likely within the next 2 weeks.

Since overheating is a concern for me, I didn't want to go with a Spearco core. The only other IC core I was considering using is the A'pexi Skyline GTR core which is even bigger.

You can get cheap mandrel bends from JC Whitney. However, I do NOT recommend using them. Their mandrel bends just plain suck. I ended up ditching the bends from JC Whitney and using Hooker mandrel bends ordered from Summit. Much much better quality.

[blunttwister]

TOAST:
Well you beat me to the griffin s/s. like i said a friend of mine is a dealer for griffin so i should be able to get a smokin deal. do you have any pics of the fmic installed or not. i cant see it in you sig pic. i plan on running it like the buschur if its not to much trouble, so it will give me the extra space for the cold air intake. which hks endtanks did you use? and where the hell did you get 2'3/8 piping? any info would be appreciated since i plan on doing this soon, dahm phoenix,az, summers are killing my car. it was 106 today, feels like a dahm civic.

[95GST]

I am also interested in a custom solution

Do you guys know if the XS engineering cores are anygood:
http://xs-engineering.com/images/intercooler_core/intercooler.gif

They claim to have skyline and sylvia cores, maybe it refers to the sizing only. Or is it better to just get the 2G kit $1200, the core is only $450... I am almost sure if you fabracate custom it would still be cheaper.

Toast I also want more info on your setup. Less pressure drop is good, I believe 20" wide will be good enough for my 20G..

How are the endtanks arrangements? Did you take the shortest route below the coolant bottle?

Do you guys know how much is the BR FMIC core, non-race one, because I cannot find it on their website.

[95GST]

By the way, 2 3/8" is just about 60MM, it is PERFECT to match up to 1G throttle bodies. Please tell us where to buy it.

is it 2 3/8" inner diameter or outer?

[Toast]

I don't have any pics of the FMIC on the car just yet. I'll be borrowing my friends digital camera in a week or two and I'll be sure to snap some pics. I ended up short routing my piping. The upper IC pipe goes directly to the TB not following the stock route. I also made a cold air intake. The air filter and MAS are now located in the fenderwell where the stock IC used to be. You can actually see the K&N logo in the passenger side fascia opening :) It's a nice 9" long filter I special ordered with the chrome cap. I hada to extend the MAS harness about 16 inches but that wasn't too difficult.

I used HKS endtanks #15 (driver's side) and #39(passenger side). With the endtanks welded on, it looks like how an A'pexi or Greddy FMIC is setup excpet the top pipe runs above the IC, not in front of it.

I used 2-3/8" 18 gauge mild steel Hooker mandrel bends ordered from Summit (also sold by Jegs). 18 gauge is easy to cut and light weight. But the 16 gauge in retrospect would have been easier to weld. Just something to think about if you are doing everything by yourself. I had to ask Mike at RRE to find straight 2 3/8" 18 gauge tubing. I searched everywhere else (literally...) but came to a dead end. Thankfully Mike cam through :)

I don't know much about XS Engineering cores. But they are basically the same construction as Griffin cores, except more expensive. Skyline and SIlvia cores would just be the difference in size (roughly 24" vs 20").

I didn't take the route below the coolant overflow. I used the RRE 16G piping in their install kit. I made a U bend shaped lower IC pipe to connect to the FMIC inlet tank. Piece of cake. Fits fine and I retained my foglights with no prob. It wouldn't be possible to fit a 24" core on a 95-96 front end and keep the foglights. My friend fit the 20" core on his 96 and just barely kept the foglights (with a tiny bit of trimming).

And yes, I thought about it and 2-3/8" seemed to be perfect :) The HKS endtanks use 60mm inlets. The RRE TB elbow pipe I used is 60mm. And the 1G TB is also 60mm. So everything works together with minimal pipe diameter changes. 2-3/8" is the OD of the tubing. All tubing is measured in OD. Only piping (like for plumbing) is measured in ID.

[95GST]

thanks for the detailed info!

How do you attach the FMIC to the car?

Do you bead your pipes at all?


Also do you really think the 20" wide core is enough for a 20G? It seems like it has almost 1PSI less pressure drop over the 24" core. But I suck at reading maps.

Make sure you take some pictures of under hood piping.. you described it quite well, but some pictures would really make even easier to understand.

[highpsigsx]

I have a 2g with a Apexi fmic now. I just bought a Spearco core 2-216 which is 28by11by3.5. I had spearco make custom end tanks just like I have now on my apexi fmic. I am going to copy the piping route Apexi took for there piping. I think that spearco makes a killer core and Jeff Mathews at Spearco was a real help. I bought my core for 625.00 shipped through http://www.crowspeed.com. I am considering a Mutt 2 I have a Super 16g now. I will post pics when I receive the fmic this week. By the way http://www.spearcointercoolers.com has flow rates on all there fmic

[Toast]

I attached the FMIC at three points. The top is a 2"x 2" 1/4" thick angle bracket of 6061 welded to the core. That bracket bolts to the the support brace the power steering line attaches to. There is also a 4" x 6" strip of aluminum welded to the bottom of the core. That attaches the FMIC to the body via 2 angle straps that I bolted to the body (using pre-existing holes). It's on there rock solid. I'm sure I could stand on it and break the core before it comes off the car.

And yes I beaded all the pipes since I am (extremely) anal ;) The tube beader cost me about $250 so you'll have to decide whether it's worth it to you. I didn't want my IC pipes having some ghetto weld or epoxy beads so I bought one of these pipe beading tools. Pretty cool but it takes a little practice for the beads to come out right. I used a 1/4" bead tool. But in retrospect 1/8" would have been easier to do and still be acceptable. At least I know there's no way in hell any of my hose couplings will blow off :)

I'm sure the 20" core will work fine with a 20G. But if you are planning to extract the maximum power out of the turbo (450+) then you'll want to go with a race core from Spearco or A'pexi. Personally I'd rather spend the extra money on cams, portwork, nitrous, etc.

[95GST]

I plan to get a welder too.. what do you recommend to weld exhaust and FMIC pipings?

Where did you get your beader too, there is some info on such a machine on the RRE site

[Toast]

You need a MIG welder to do tubing. Forget stick welders. They are cheap but basically worthless for doing tubing. If this is all the welding you are planning to do, then you can save some money and just get a flux core MIG welder. But flux core doesn't come out as clean, has lots of splatter/smoke/slag, and takes a lot of prep work. You need to clean off the weld every time you stop. Very time consuming. I suggest spending the extra money for a gas MIG welder. You'll thank yourself later.

I got my beader off Ebay. I was lucky enough to find someone selling what I needed. But you can order tube beading tools online from several places. Just remember, that not all tube beaders are created equal. There are heavy duty beaders and light duty beaders of poor construction. Here's an example of a light duty beader:

http://wancotool.com/tube.htm

It's got some VERY light duty construction. You'd struggle just to get a good bead on 18 gauge mild steel with this tool. It would probably fall apart on 16 gauge mild steel. Notice they don't show any beads on mild or stainless steel. So remember you get what you pay for. If it can't do the job than it's worthless.

[widebody]

Originally posted by galantvr41062
I am going with a Mutt level 5, I like the look of the front mounts on the Gvr4 but performance is a top priority so I am going with a Sperco water to air intracooler. it will flow 700cfm with 3"out let for the throtle body and it mounts over you tranny so the ic piping is short. they also sell a bigger one that flows 1500cfm. I can provide the link if you want but its at Top end Performance for $615.00 for the 700cfm no ic piping though. and you need a seperate water system to cool the IC. other than that DSM-performance does sell nice ic along with buschur. Good choice on the Mutt I think they will be some of the best turbos selling with a warrenty.

~John
LSE performance engineering and design

your gonna need more than 700cfm out of your intercooler for that size turbo. I looked into a liquid to air for my set-up when we where planning it out and to do the system it woulda required a 1200$ core, on a street driven car i didn't feel it was worth it, on a track only car it would be the hot ticket though.

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

For beading just follow RREs DIY instructions. Wrap two pieces of tape around the pipe with a small gap in between them. Lather on a thick layer of epoxy. Before it cures tear off the tape. You now have a nice strong bead. That's what I did. It works well for me.

[galantvr41062]

well the turbo will flow 800cfm and the out let on the intracooler will be 3" and I will have a 2.5 inlet and the out let on the turbo is 2". I dont know if I will egt 9s but I will try my best. I was also thinking water injection adn NOS(200ish) and FULL built motor. Good Luck

~John
if the intracooler does not flow it I will get the 1500cfm one for $900 then, need to look into it more.
I suppose a 9 is a little fast 10s is what I will go for.

[Endless]

You guys are fogetting the HRC front mount. Its very affordable and the most efficient on the market to date. It has a very low pressure drop, great cooling and allows for the best flow to the stock radiator compared to the other large front mounts. I have had the XS skyline core boased intercooler in the past and it is also a great intercooler. One thing that I will say about the XS cooler is thatis the by far the best looking on the market. It has highly polished tanks and ceramic coated piping. Fit is perfect. My new cooler is the HRC though......www.hrchahnracecraft.com