here an idea on crank walk prevention

[daves1997gst]

im a mechanic, anyways i was pondering today what kills main bearings,HEAT kills them, heat causes the friction which causes massive wear. so has anyone tried running an over sized radiator, and a thermastat with holes in it to drop the temp of the motor down some. plus an oil cooler might help the high quality mobil 1 some.
well its only a thought. im goin to try it on mine
if the crank doesnt walk first.....

[dyezak]

Well, first off it's not the main bearings that fail from crank walk, it's only 1 main bearing...the thrust bearing. And the reason for this failure is in the design of the 2g block (wonder why 2g's have this problem and 1g's dont?). Well here it is, it's the 2g oil squirters. The 1g blocks get their oil supply from the main oil gallery, and have a pintle type regulator in them that is very reliable. The 2g oil squirters get their supply of oil from the (get this) main bearings. They also have a different type of regulator in the squirters. It seems these squirters hang open once and a while lowering oil pressure to the main bearings during idle. When you depress your clutch at this time (with low oil pressure to the mains) you wear that damn thrust bearing out, thust inhibiting crank walk. Higher pressure clutches agrivate the problem also. This is also why some 2g's have the problem and some don't. SOME of the oil squirters hang SOME of the time...you might be lucky if you don't have crank walk. Even if 1g squirters hung they get their supply of oil from the main gallery, not a problem. I believe RRE were the people who took a couple of 1g and 2g blocks and hacked them apart to find this out. It seems RRE blocks off all oil squirters on their 2g buildups now and have had nobody come back due to crank walk. Not heat, but poor engineering.

[roadpie4u]

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!

Now that is dumb, I didnt know that. so RRE managed to block the squirters and stop the problem? Idk, we shall see. There's gotta be a good way to fix the problem, either that or buy a 2g body and a 1g block and get ready for headaches!

There's gotta be a way to solve the problem up front. Does RRE have info on this stuff? I'd love to know if there's anything to be done on it. I've got a 1g and buying a 2g, so I'm good if I need components (The block has 80k on it, and still runs well, but I'd rather start with a 2g block, I doubt it'd just drop in, knowing my luck. But I could, and would, tear apart the block for the pieces to the oil system if I needed to. Whatever it takes, ya know? It's the thrust bearing... hmmm... Either diverting the oil system to the 1g setup, replacing the regulators, or perhaps if you *attacked* the block all crazy ass style, you could set up it differently, just as the turbo has it's oil feed lines and people put in oil coolers and turbo timers, you could change the system to put the oil in different places...

Hey! Wait a minute! What about the oil gauge on the dash? Does that thing suck? If pressure fell lower then normal at idle, wouldnt you be able to see it? At which point, just as you can make your own A/F Gauge by watching the voltage of the O2 Sensor, and a Knock Sensor, what about an LED to an additional, or the stock Oil sensor. If pressure got too low, it'd pop the LED on, and you'd know the things are sticking. Granted, it wouldnt happen long or often, but just as a knock sensor led lets you know, this would too. Perhaps that'd be a possibility? If we cant prevent crankwalk, we might as well know it's happening, to be prepared.

Then something really undesired - what if you kept the oil on the very top end, if not slightly beyond, the full mark. If you have extra oil, technically, the pressure in there would be a little bit higher... technically... But that risks problems of its own.

There's gotta be some way... Some people are totally crank free, and I'm not going to just say "Some stick, some dont" As an Engineer by nature, that dosent make statistical or logical sense. It would seem some people are doing something and keeping crank at bay without knowing it. It could be the driver, perhaps not letting the clutch in hard, and riding it slowly. It could be they keep the oil constantly changed and really damn full. It could be something totally different. But of tens of thousands of cars, something this dramatic would hit them all unless prevented. There's gotta be some way...

[dyezak]

Number one, the 1g block will bolt into a 2g...ez fix.

Number two, there is no way to change with oiling passages in a 2g block...impossible. And 1g squirters wont work.

Number three, yes, the oil pressure guage in the stock cluster sux.

Number four, when the pressure drops it doesn't drop in the main oil gallery (that's why you're not having valvetrain problems), it only drops in the main's gallery. The pressure sensor takes it's reading from the main gallery, so your LED light idea is thrown out.

Number five, there are manufacturing tolarances...lets say the sqirters are manufacutured with a 10% tollerence. If you get a car with -10% on all 4 injectors...more than likely you are going to get crank walk. If you get a car with +10% on all 4 injectors, more than likely you are in the clear. Keep in mind NHRA and IHRA showroom stock racing. They have Z28's in the 11's, with ONLY factory pieces, and no mods to those pieces. These guys blueprint everything and pick only the best of the best...they'll buy 100 valve springs and use only the 16 that have the highest seat pressure. The same goes for all the parts on these showroom stock cars. Impressive what blueprinting can do.

Number six, RRE has a kit for bolting in a 1g block into a 2g. Although there is one company (cant remember which one) who says RRE's meathod is to complex and they have their own way...suposidly much ez'r.

[roadpie4u]

Yeah, I just read up on RRE and the linked pages on what they had done. Very interesting. It's stupid that mitsu did that. My engine isnt in the greatest of shape, I'd do a full tear down/rebuild on it before I slapped it into a new body (Look at me mom, I'm doing a heart transplant! :)) and I just replaced my ECU Caps (Brain Surgeon! :)) and I replaced my exaust system (Let's not go there! :)) Slapping a 1g block into a 2g definatly has it's advantages. I however am at one slight problem. I bought my car, wrecked, from my insurance company (I killed it) for $300 and rebuilt it (only front clip, easy fixer) And it's a 2L NT... and I'm looking to find a wrecked Spyder to rebuild next. Either they have the 2.4SOHC(I dont think so!) or the turbo. I want the turbo. The 140HP is nice mind you, I got nothing against it, but I'd rather have a turbo to play with. So I'd have to go buy a 1g Turbo block to do the swap with - if I needed an engine I'd do that rather then use a 2g block! But who knows, only time will tell. But if I find one with a block intact, I'm not going to want crankwalk (duh)... RRE's got some good ideas. They keep mentioning that fried chicken. Perhaps that's a good place to start...

[I Killed Tupac]

http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/crankwalktheory.htm

[Redsand187]

The 1g engine into a 2g is by far a easy swap! It goes more in depth then you want to know. Has anyone had there thrust bearing cryogenicly frozen? Maybe that would help, and someone needs to figure out how to "oversize" the squirters, to keep them from clogging.

[DSM Storm]

Are you guys forgetting that 6-bolts have been crankwalked too, In the past 2 months Ive seen 3 cases of crankwalk on a 6 bolt motor.

[99gst]

Originally posted by DSM Storm
Are you guys forgetting that 6-bolts have been crankwalked too, In the past 2 months Ive seen 3 cases of crankwalk on a 6 bolt motor.

That is just what I was thinking. The reason Marco at Magnus developed an easier way to swap a 6-bolt into a 2G is because nobody was interested in a fix but just determined to do the swap. Everyone seems to think that swapping a 6-bolt motor from a 1G is the "magic pill". There are no guarantees that you will not walk again. Doing the swap should definetly reduce your risk but does not eliminate it.

What if you check for crankwalk on a regular basis and caught it before it damaged your engine (at the stage where its just out of spec) and you replaced the thrust bearing? Could you get by just replacing the thrust bearing periodically whenever it just get out of spec treating it as a maintanence item? Maybe every year or so. How expensive would that be?

[4G63Rydah]

First off, I'd like to say that this seems to be more of a Gen Tech post than an Advance tech post.
Second, for those people that were saying that RRE did the research and found out that the oil squirters were bad. That was Marco at Magnus Motorsports, not RRE.
Third, I'm not surprised that there have been a few cases of crankwalk with the 6-bolts. You do know that "crankwalk" is not unique to DSMs? It is just that a design flaw made it very common in 2G DSMs. Performance oriented V8s have been experiencing "crankwalk" for years (Although I think they just call it thrust bearing failure). If you search around you'll see all kinds of different designs that claim better oil lubrication of thrust bearings for V8s. I believe Miatas have even had problems with it. Basically ANY car that puts severe load on the crank (via performance mods such as a heavy duty clutch) is at risk of getting "crankwalk". But for most cars this is like a 1 in 10,000 chance (i made that number up so don't say "i couldn't find that number anywhere"):)

[roadpie4u]

This is very true, it does happen to other cars. But then there's also just the simple fact that it happens like friggin crazy in 2g dsms. Anyway, cryogenically freezing the thrust bearing may not do any good in the long run, and oversizing the squirters so they dont clog would be a difficult process. There is no magic pill, and there have been cases of 1g trust bearing failure, but a fraction compared to the 2g. We are putting so much force onto the damn bearing that of course it's gonna suffer. But I think there still is great potential for coming up with a fix, and not a swap, because I doubt most people have the cash laying around to hop down to the store and just pick up a 1g block. Granted, they arent toooo expensive, and they dont guarantee the bearing wont fail, but it's a minor chance. I think unfortunatly, Also, it sounds like the bearings can fail really damn quick. And last I knew, it was a slightly extensive procedutre to do. I personally dont own a 2g, and havent even actually pulled open my block yet, I dont know how long I'll have it, so I dont know if I ever will. But most people dont have the tools or time to constantly check the bearing to make sure it's in spec. Granted, if you're smart you'd learn, but until better regulation and understanding comes around of atleast an estimate of the lifespan of the thrust bearing, then we shouldnt start jumping. We need to try to come up with a working solution. Magnus has been at it for a while, and their solutions of altering the bearing and block are getting really up to expectations, but we need more thoughts flying. I mean, I'd have thought it was something far more complicated till magnus tore open the blocks and said it was the oil squirters. I mean, really. They did damn good, and I think we need to try to keep up with them on our end.

If we can get more data, that'd be a help. Firstly we need to get similar drivers on similar vehicles and get the failure milage, and the damage incurred.

Prevention. What can we do? Tapping a new pressure sensor right at the thrust bearing? What about fitting the bearing with a feature, be it electrical or whatever, so that once it gets ground down, it sets off a red light. That could be done several ways. But if people just sit back and do nothing, nothing will get done. There are so many of us here in this site alone all trying to figure something out, let's put our heads together.

[roadpie4u]

Something else interesting - The bearing fails under pressure. What if we assume we cant stop that pressure drop. What is the next logical thought? If we cant potentially change the pressure situation, what about changing the bearing. What is that thing made of? I dont know, but how much does a new one cost? What about dipping the thing in liquid nitrogen? That bearing is supposed to have a healthy supply of oil, and I think it'd be good to assume that we cant stop it from NOT getting it. That's one route. The other is to figure out a way to solve the problem.
We upgrade our fuel pumps above factory spec and pay a lot for it. We go bigger injectors, bigger air filters, bigger rims, bigger tires, bigger subwoofers, bigger turbos. What about upgrading to an above factory oil pump. Granted, the oil pressure would live at the highest point on the acceptable chart, and that might hurt other things in the long run, but I think that running really good oil and changing it religiously will knock such issues out. But if they get clogged open, we can still provide ample pressure to keep pushing.

Lastly, I know it sucks, but on magnus's links, one guy rode the gas pedal before he put the clutch in so the pressure went up. It'd not be great for milage, but what about adjusting the idle. Increase the idle, increase the running pressure. Just pushing it up a few hundred RPM, and loosing even a mile or two per gallon i think is worth a possible solution to the problem.

[ippkiss]

you guys say that there is no magic fix but there is, just get an auto. out of all the cases of walk i have only seen one auto with it. hows that for one in a million. the only problem is that the autos are slow as shit. if only we could get some one to build us 6spee autos, with high stall torqu conveters and stiff shift programs. then the auto dsm would be un stopable. well if you guys do decide that beffing up an auto is the way to go let me know i am tired of seeing my friend's gsx taillights



justin with the sad 95 tsi awd auto

[blunttwister]

you may not get cw, but then you have to drive an auto. hurts me to see sports cars w/auto. drove a vette w/auto and was very disapointed. i would rather get cw than ever own an auto dsm. buy a stick and use the money you saved and get a 1g block(cheap), use your 2g head(you already have one) and do the swap the magnus way, simple
http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/1g2g.htm
dont even try and mess w/cw, many have tried, all have failed. if you do get a fix, i'll be the first to use it, but i'm not crossing my fingers. just looking for a 6bolt and someone to put it in. and then i dont have to worry about cw and you dont need rods until 450 or so.
1g strength plus 2g looks, doesnt get any better.

i know of 3 auto's that walked, so its part oiling problem/clutch/alignment/oil squirters, but is all on mitsubishi and there weak ass specs and no balls to back up there mistakes.
i'll get off my soapbox now.

[99gst]

Last week I was talking to the local DSM expert here (Foreign Connection, its on the vendor list at DSM.org) and he said there are upgraded thrust bearings that can be used which are much harder to wear out. I don't remember the name of the manufacturer but I remember he said the are the same ones that make thrust bearings on Nascars. He has installed these on a 95 TSI AWD so its something we can use.

[95awd'n'BC]

So how hard exactly would it be to just swap out the thrust bearing every year or so? if its not that expensive then we could always just look at it as another maintenance item, i mean some of us replace 4 tires every year or so, and personnaly i'd rather drive on some worn tires for awhile than have my crank eat through the sensors and kill my car completely.

Anyone know what ever happened with the "$18 crankwalk fix"?

[ippkiss]

money i saved? if there was any way i could get out of my talon i would. it would cost me more money to buy a manual dsm, than to build my auto to manual level. have you ever tryed to sell a auto dsm? dosnen't work.

[blunttwister]

there was a 96 silver gsx on the trader w/o engine for $7000. it came w/16g, ported ex mani, dp, catback, suspension, etc. i was really tempted considering i have silver a 95gst, its like i would get the same car only better. still trying to find one w/o engine or tranny.
1000 for a nice 6bolt
??? for a 2g head
<150 1g intake/tb
??? portmatch heads to intake
??? install
2-3k for it all is a VERY rough estimate, find a buddy who can install it and you have a very mean and rare 1gina2g for under 10k nicely modded. the engine swap should raise the value of the car to an enthusiast considerably. just a thought

do you really think you would still loose money? you may loose a little cash, but wouldnt have to worry about seeing your friends tail lights. and if you ever plan on going all out you dont have to spend the $$$ on rods, unless you want insane power. this is what i plan on, just will take some time.

99GST:
if you are getting new bearings, make sure to send them to get coated, Swain technologies are leaders in coatings. they can coat them w/some shit that will keep oil on them, same stuff they use on the sides of pistons, this would surely help extend the life.i talked to him a while ago about coating bearings, this reminds me i need give him a holler.

whats IPPKISS, i would get that you kiss PP's. i hope not. please explain.

[ippkiss]

as for ippkiks, my last name happens to be stanley so everyone calls me stanley ippkiss. if i was relay lucky i could get 7000 grand out of my car, i still owe like 7500.
i have all ready decided to keep my talon as my street car and buy a supra turbo for suping up. i mean 380 rwh for 2000 in modds, i don't even think dsm's have that kind of bang for the buck.

[Tevenor]

or the same expense up front as a supra either.

[blunttwister]

if i had the $$$$$ for a supra then i would sell my gst and get one, but i dont. plus the insurance on a Supra tt and a 19 year old male would not be pretty, even w/a clean record. i asked when i was getting quotes for an eclipsegst/gsx/z28/prelude/supra. they gave me all the numbers,but said that there was an asterick next to the supra, she said she didnt know why, but probably because they wouldnt even insure me on it.

[ippkiss]

well by the time i buy a supra i will be 22 or 23 so insurance shouln't be that bad, and i have seen tt supras for 13,500 in utah. i was a 94 but that aint bad. and by the time i get my loan payed off not even 97 supras will be that expensive.

[Stephen]

There has to be a prevention method to crankwalk... even if it was used in conjuction with a thrust bearing replacement.

How about if you changed your oil every 2500 miles, and every 1250 miles you dumped tons of oilcleaner in your car? then on top of that every year/2 years you changed your bearing for a newer better one. On top of this you changed your oil pump for a higher pressure one. It could become a routine thing at a dsm shop like bushcur's. it could prevent crankwalk altogether, but who knows!

I just got an act 2600 and my car gets in mood swings when it doesent like to go in any gear. This could the clutch setup as a hole, but it could also be crankwalk. i have moderately high oil pressure so I am not to worried about it, but the thought always lingers.

Crankwalk isnt going to go away. Even if 1gs are less prone to getting it, they still get it. Something needs to be done.

[1997EclipseGST]

yeah whats up with this? i have a 97 gst with 93,000 miles on it, never crankwalked. why? i have no earthly idea. commuting is alot of the mileage, highway miles mostly in 5th gear, so that eliminates the use of the clutch alot, which in turn means less wear on the thrust bearing, which apparently means less chance of crankwalk. i change the oil myself every 2900-3000 miles, no a problem. im not very hard on the car and dont take off hard much, usually just accelerating fast after i get grip. im gonna be upping to an act 2600 soon, so hopefully i still wont have crankwalk. i dont know.

ippkiss: about the autos getting less crankwalk, i dont think thats true, the proportion is the same as manuals. first of all there is a small chance of crankwalk on a 2g, assuming there were many many less autos than manuals(i havent seen the production numbers, so im assuming) than that would mean you hear about it ALOT less, hence the illusion that it doesnt plague autos. 2nd point, autos are like a second slower with the same mods, why? less power into the ground, less power means less wear and breaking parts. so we assume that most autos dont have the power to wear the bearings like a manual does, making chances slim that it will happen. of the fraction of crankwalked auto owners, id be willing to bet that they, more often than not, are is the really hopped up auto 2g eclipses who are the only ones with crankwalk. can anyone tell i just got out of my statistics class? :)

-Aaron

[ippkiss]

you guys do know that it was just a joke right? i mean i have to justify the fact that i drive an auto some how. yes they are slow, horibly slow. i still love my car, no it dosen't have crank walk, but i has every other problem, lets see sence i bought it in december i have put on new break pads, new plugs, a new timing belt, new water pump, new plug wires, turned my rotors, new coils, new fan belts, a new fule filter, and i will soon be puting on new tires on some nice rims, when i told my self that they were high matinace cars i had no idea of how right i was.