timing survey

[blunttwister]

alright, i want to know.

How much timing do you all tune for?
i know it starts lower and builds, so lets say a 3rd gear pull from 4k and up. i have a 2g so i cant count knock.

keep answers short and to the point.

i would say 20 degrees by 5-5.5k.

thanks

[Van]

I got 26 degrees of timing advance at 6000rpm, top of third gear, 17 psi of boost, pump gas, and .88v O2 with 0 knock. I just logged this earlier... :D
Logger and an empty mountain hiway, oh yeah!

[whiteGSX]

Van, do you know how much knock you can have (5, 10?) before timing is pulled? Reason I'm asking is because I've read about someone that had 25 deg. @ 7k made more power than 27 deg. @ 7k. I'm confused since I thought more timing meant more power? Or is it possible to get too much timing while getting a bit of knock?

Also, does timing continue to climb to redline or is it suppose to fall off after 6k?

[Van]

I'm not sure if 2g's are the same or not, but on the 1g, a knock sum of 3 or less and the ecu will advance timing, with 3 to 7 knock sum it holds timing advance steady, once you get to 7 and above it will pull timing back.
http://www.vfaq.com/TMO/

The 25 @ 7 vs the 27 @ 7000rpm is possible...If he raised his boost say 1 psi and could only get 25 @ 7, (instead of the 1 psi less boost and 27 @ 7,) he would be making more power. Obviously, his turbo was/is still efficient at 7000 rpm at whatever boost level he was at.

My timing steadily rises, but there are flat spots within the "curve" too. Where it will stay steady for a bit. Keep in mind that I'm new with the logger and am learning a few things too. I read somewhere that it seems harder to get the 2g's to give alot of advance; I do not know if this is true or not though.

For my current set-up and running pump gas; I've discovered that 18 psi of boost with the 14b, just seems to make alot of heat. I have to adjust for ALOT more fuel with the s-afc, this pushes my IPW too high for me to be comfortable with, I hit fuel-cut easily, and it still knocks. It feels alot faster with 17 psi and the most timing advance, until the 14b runs out of steam.

[Geovannie]

do you guys have your timing set at 5degrees when grounded? I have it like at almost 8 when grounded. I dont have datalogger or anything yet so i dont know if my timing is being pulled. I should probably put it back to 5 right. Im on stock turbo and only fuel pump. no other fuel related mods. Boost is at 17psi. It does not feel as if timing is being retarded but of course there is no way for me to know that w/o a datalogger.

[FastGSXauto]

Is it possible to knock from being too rich? Because first of all, I get a jump to 15 knock when the turbo hits hard around 4000RPM, then it steadily drops down to about 9. My o2 voltage are around .94-.96 at 4000RPM.

[whiteGSX]

From what I've read...when you run too rich you get missfires that is picked up by the knock sensor as knock, this pulling your timing. With an EGT gauge you can easily tell if you are running too fat.
Originally posted by Geovannie
do you guys have your timing set at 5degrees when grounded?
I'd set it back to 5 degree (grounded) until you are able to datalog your car. If everything seems ok and you are getting good timing and no knock, then you can experiment advancing the base timing 1 degree at a time and log from there.

Thanks for tips on tuning, Van. :D

[Edited by whiteGSX on 06-27-2001 at 05:32 PM]

[FastGSXauto]

At WOT, my EGT doesn't get over 1400F, my O2's are around .91 yet I still get knock and my timing gets pulled. This is in 86 degree weather. Why would me EGT's be so low?

[whiteGSX]

What kind of gas are you using? How high is your boost? How old is your o2 sensor? 1400 seems pretty low, but I'd believe that over the o2 voltage since they vary so much. Try leaning it out more to see if you get any MORE knock and higher EGTs. My guess is your intake air is too hot due to the weather along with way too much fuel.

[FastGSXauto]

I'm using sunoco 94 octane. These tests were run at 18psi on a big 16G, my o2 sensor is 50k miles old. I'm thinking it's the weather too.. 86F. But still, I would think giving it enough fuel I should be able to run 18psi with 550's.

[whiteGSX]

What year is your car and what are you using for fuel control? A list of mods would help also.

[FastGSXauto]

93 GSX, AT. 3000GT fuel pump rewired, rx-7 550s injectors, old shcool AFC. It seems like as I turn the AFC leaner in the higher ranges, the o2 voltages don't even go down. My EGT's are always very low. And knock sum jumps way high when the car shifts. I think it could be some backfiring.

[Van]

Originally posted by FastGSXauto
93 GSX, AT. 3000GT fuel pump rewired, rx-7 550s injectors, old shcool AFC. It seems like as I turn the AFC leaner in the higher ranges, the o2 voltages don't even go down. My EGT's are always very low. And knock sum jumps way high when the car shifts.

Your last sentence, I believe, is a tell-tale sign of too high of base fuel pressure, only from what I've heard... I don't know anything about the 3KGT fuel pump, so I'm not sure. Hmmm, I just noticed that you must have the A/T FPR too...
Your low egt's and "unadjustable" O2's support this theory also. :)

Just out of curiosity: Are your RX-7 injectors the Lo impedance or the Hi impedance?

[whiteGSX]

Have you hacked your MAS yet? If not, then you'll have to really lean out the 550s since you'll run so rich. But yea, I think the problem is too rich one way or another...

When you log your car at night when it's cooler, does it make a difference?

[MikeVgsx]

I run base of 12 at track only on race, i see 32 degrees at redline.

Street 5 , 24 by redline

[TheHondaKiller]

On my Haltech E6K I have it set for 20deg then it rises to 22deg at redline for 15psi, and 19/21deg for 17psi. I'm still laying out a base tune for my 1000cc's so I haven't played with the timing in a long while. I'm thinking that 25deg or more isn't out of the question. Does your dataloger show the advance of the ECU then you have to add the base to get total timing? So 5deg base and daltaloger says 20deg so you actually have 25deg? Is this the way the car is timed with the stock ecu?

[FastGSXauto]

Van they are high impedance.

[91eclipsegsx16boy]

yea!!! my knock count LEAPS! from 0 to 20 when shifting?!?!? im all stock - just k&n/hacked maf. when temps start risin my knock goes frm 0 to teens, then even 20's at 6500 rpm. i had 43 adv at one point - isnt max 45??? im gettin the max i can get on my a/f gauge (.99)

Van, a little help? heheh :-)

-aaron

[Edited by 91eclipsegsx16boy on 07-06-2001 at 03:07 AM]

[Van]

Originally posted by 91eclipsegsx16boy
yea!!! my knock count LEAPS! from 0 to 20 when shifting?!?!? im all stock - just k&n/hacked maf. when temps start risin my knock goes frm 0 to teens, then even 20's at 6500 rpm. i had 43 adv at one point - isnt max 45??? im gettin the max i can get on my a/f gauge (.99)

Van, a little help? heheh :-)



With your mods, I'm thinking that your knock sensor is picking up some kind of mechanical noise. Are you shifting "normally," or shifting without stepping off the go pedal?

The temp and the knock sum rising together, is normal, for the most part. I'm assuming we're talking about air intake temps... Is your air can hacked up? If so try to fabricate a cold air intake supply or a heat shield of some type, that should help some.

That 43/45 degrees of advance happens when you are decelerating. :)

Your last sentence puzzles me... Exactly when, are you getting .99 O2 volts? And with what are you reading .99 O2 volts, a logger? .99 O2 volts is dead rich Aaron! But at your mod level, it doesn't surprise me. You need more air flow! :D

[91eclipsegsx16boy]

Van-

thanks for the help man, if you have AIM or on IRC or soemthing maybe we can talk not through dsmtalk.com

anyway, i have one of those autometer .79 to .99 meters and it goes as high as it can at WOT and stays there. i borrowed my buddy's pocketlogger for intake and coolant temps and knock and timing.

sometimes i speed shift, sometimes not. i should really use the TPS sensor to see what the hell im doin - WOT or decelerating...

the coolant temps got as high as +220!!! so i have a 180 in there now. air intake temps were around 130. i put the air can back on cause it was +90F deg in Michigan for awhile and the car was slow as balls with the can off (i.e. sucking heat in).

thanks a bunch
-aaron

[Van]

Originally posted by 91eclipsegsx16boy
if you have AIM or on IRC or soemthing maybe we can talk not through dsmtalk.com

Notta, I dislike that chat room stuff. Sorry.

Originally posted by 91eclipsegsx16boy
anyway, i have one of those autometer .79 to .99 meters and it goes as high as it can at WOT and stays there. i borrowed my buddy's pocketlogger for intake and coolant temps and knock and timing.

That's what I figured, and that's a good friend. You could get a boost gauge and a mbc for now. As rich @ WOT as you are, you definitely got some room to up the boost a little.

Originally posted by 91eclipsegsx16boy
air intake temps were around 130. i put the air can back on

Man, that's warm for pre-turbo air! It's definitely a good idea to shield the intake from some of that heat, anyway you can.

[BlkGost]

Originally posted by 91eclipsegsx16boy
i borrowed my buddy's pocketlogger for intake and coolant temps and knock and timing.

Heh heh must be some nice fella you know :) (not to mention gifted with the ladies)

[QUOTE]Posted by VanThat's what I figured, and that's a good friend.

Hell yeah thats a good friend :-P !!! Hey Van I think he's running a f'ed up o2 sensor. His logs show it cycling, but if I recall what aaron said correctly his guage only works at WOT. Maybe the tapping of the o2 sensor is wrong (tapped at the 02 dianostic port in the kickpannel), or the guage may be screwy. Who knows....D.S.M= Don't Start Modding

BTW Van how could you tell your knock senosr was fried??

[Van]

Originally posted by BlkGost
[QUOTE]I think he's running a f'ed up o2 sensor. His logs show it cycling, but if I recall what aaron said correctly his guage only works at WOT. Maybe the tapping of the o2 sensor is wrong (tapped at the 02 dianostic port in the kickpannel), or the guage may be screwy.

BTW Van how could you tell your knock senosr was fried??

Because his gauge is one of the blinky light meters (modded) that only gives .79v to .99v (that's what he said), it's not gonna show anything else. :) Yet another reason that the Jumptronix or the s-afc blue wire mod is better. Anyways, that why it only seems to work at WOT. The kick panel lead is good but it reads slightly different than what the logger will show...

knock sensor re: I suspected that it was bad, but didn't know for sure. At that time I had a local club member log it for me and I was getting knock when I "knew" I shouldn't be.

[BlkGost]

ahhh sensai Van u are wise beyond your years :D

[Van]

sensai, LOL, just glad to be able to help out when I can...I'm not fast enough to be a sensai yet. Someday!

[BlkGost]

<-----hears's a GONG!!!! Sound