Motor rebuild q's for the widebody

[widebody]

Ok so here is the list of what i'm gonna do and the questions i have. the motor has 70k on it.

I'm going to use eagle connecting rods and have my pistons bored to free float

question 1: i'm using my 97 pistons and going with new rings is this ok as long as i don't have a severe taper in the cylinder
2. should i ream the cylinder and hone it?
3. on the rod bearings should i just use mitsu, or go with clevite standard sizes (not going to turn the crank, i'll lap it if it looks like some wear is evident)
4. the motor has 70k, should i replace the front cover, oil pick-up? i'm defineatly doing the waterpump, but the t-belt is only 5k old so should i leave it or replace it?

i really want some opinions from someone whos done this kinda build, i'm not planning on removing the motor but do it in the car, i guess you would call it a semi-rebuild mainly because the motor is in perfect running order, i just want to make it bullet proof (as much as i can anyway) for the new turbo/cams.

[Rdy2race]

this is FAR from advanced so I will be moving it.

I don't agree that you should be running a floating piston. Knock with kill it. Stay with standard set up. Also if your not going to remove the motor then have fun. In block rebuilds should OLNY be done by people who know the car in and out. have all the proper tools on hand to do a job like this and lastly they will even tell you that this is not the "right" way to do this.

the fact that you even asked this "

2. should i ream the cylinder and hone it?
3. on the rod bearings should i just use mitsu, or go with clevite standard sizes (not going to turn the crank, i'll lap it if it looks like some wear is evident "

shows me that your not ready to do this. yes the block MUST be honed AT LEAST. if your smart remove the block and have the lone bore checked,
"looks" and "Crank" are VERY bad workds to have togeather. you need to mic the crank and have it polished at least to know you won't have a prob.

I personally like both bearings but for a 2G I would stay with Mitsu in your case.

This will better help me understand this.

Why are you rebuilding it? What happened? The FIRST part of a rebuild is knowing where it all went wrong.

BM-

PS I'll let this hang for now but if this doesn't get advanced REAL FAST it's going to gen Tech. This is not very advanced at all.

PSS!!! You have NOT addressed the CW problems that the 2G's are known to have. Make sure that you are addressing the bearings on the lower end and pack you head full of all the tricks for the proper way to install the crank. it should be loaded on when installing. For the most part. judt do it right... if not.... you will be doing it twice. this is not a forgiving motor.

NEVER use a USED T belt NEVER Unless you really don't care.
:D

[widebody]

i was trying to keep it simple, and being that this is the advanced forum i figured everyone would know the little things that i would be doing (i.e. look at the crank rod journals meaning i would mic them out and plastigauge them) anyway.
there is nothing wrong with the motor
there are no signs of crankwalk

i'm doing this work to make the bottom end stronger by using stronger rods, this entails removing the rod/piston and because i'm using eagle rods i HAVE to go to a floating pin set-up (bore the 97 pistons and use a pin/lock). I for one feel the crankwalk issue is because of a bad batch of bearings, so i'm not worring about that if i show no signs of walking how would i address the problem?!

the reason i asked about reaming the cylinder is because of the 3 motors i've gotten into with friends ranging from 45-80k when we pulled the head there was still a factory crosshatch, so if thats the case is it a good idea to hone anyway to ensure a good cylinder bore surface for the new rings?

And finnally, you are a moderator and have every right to move this post, but, look at this forum there are only a handful of people on this board with real knowledge of this type of work, had i placed this in gen-tech it would have been either blown out with a million replys, or pushed way down replaced with posts like " how do i put a k-n-n filter on". This type of rebuild can be done witht he motor in the car, no block work should be needed, and if the t-belt has 10,000 miles on it why should i replace it? do you replace it every time you do a cam job? Anyway at least i got one response

[Rdy2race]

Originally posted by widebody
i was trying to keep it simple, and being that this is the advanced forum i figured everyone would know the little things that i would be doing (i.e. look at the crank rod journals meaning i would mic them out and plastigauge them) anyway.
there is nothing wrong with the motor
there are no signs of crankwalk

OK that is a good point.


i'm doing this work to make the bottom end stronger by using stronger rods, this entails removing the rod/piston and because i'm using eagle rods i HAVE to go to a floating pin set-up (bore the 97 pistons and use a pin/lock). I for one feel the crankwalk issue is because of a bad batch of bearings, so i'm not worring about that if i show no signs of walking how would i address the problem?!

I have to check on that with Eagel rods. To my knowlage they are the correct size for press fit last time I checked. I am not 100% sure on that but I do not remember that being required. The clurch bearing will not effect CW yes the clutch hanging up will but at the moment the blame is being placed all over the clutch hanging up is only ONE of many IDEAS. IMHO the TOB ( or also known as the clutch relese bearing ) is not strong enought to cause CW. it would break first. If the shaft that it rides on it gruved and causing it to not move back then I COULD see that happening but that would be a trany problem not the bearing. To check it measure the crank end play and mic /plastic gauge all the bearings. Many people are doing oil gruves on the thrust bearing to help fight the CW problem. also making sure that the oil holes in the block are clean and not over lapped by the bearing. Some are loading the crank ( pushing on it ) when installing. I have mixed feeling on that one but it seems to be working.

the reason i asked about reaming the cylinder is because of the 3 motors i've gotten into with friends ranging from 45-80k when we pulled the head there was still a factory crosshatch, so if thats the case is it a good idea to hone anyway to ensure a good cylinder bore surface for the new rings?

this is B/c the very high quility of the castings that Mitsu used for the blocks, They are tough blocks. I have opened motors with 100+ on them and still seen this, this is VERY normial to see. Yes it's a good diea to do this as the rings should have a fresh surface to wear in on. As you said before make sure you check the taper of the walls, if you see something funny have it bored over.

[i][/b]And finnally, you are a moderator and have every right to move this post, but, look at this forum there are only a handful of people on this board with real knowledge of this type of work, had i placed this in gen-tech it would have been either blown out with a million replys, or pushed way down replaced with posts like " how do i put a k-n-n filter on". This type of rebuild can be done witht he motor in the car, no block work should be needed, and if the t-belt has 10,000 miles on it why should i replace it? do you replace it every time you do a cam job? Anyway at least i got one response [/B]

you should replave the 200 in parts because the motor costs 2k in parts!!! how is that for a point?? heheh the deal is this. Is it worth it to you to go through all this work and to install a T belt that could fail?? I say no. Also remember this the survice life of the T belt is 60K for a motor that makes 210 FW HP and is not ment to see redline very often if ever. Now your sdking it to spin faster, take on more load and be just as accurate as it ever was.... replace the belts and pullies. ( PS your CRAZY not to yank the B shafts also at this point. ) Another thing is the oil pump like you said. You should be fine but pull it any way and Mic out the gears and look for scoreing in the case cover. In many cases they are fine but you should remove it pack it with P gell and reinstall so that the motor will prime right and not wipe out the bearings on start up.

TRUST ME I agree with you on the moving of the thread this is why I have not yet moved it. We have gotten replys from many that Adv tech is getting "soft" so we want to keep it very geek tech to advoid the K&N Q's like you stated. As long as we don't get stupit simple Q's that is fine. keep it advanced and we will be ok. :D

I have a Q. Who said that you MUST make a full floater piston for the eagel rods. it will work but long term in a street care with the knock that this turbo car dishes out isn't a good idea for the long run. race cars?? Different story.

Good Luck and keep it coming =-)

[TalonEvolution]

I think that as rebuilding a block goes way past what most people know, it should be noted as "advanced"...especially with the questions he has. This is definitely not for Gen. Tech.

[widebody]

when i bought the rods from the local race warehouse they stated that i would need to have the stock pistons bored out to accept a floating pin because the press fit would not work, after what you said i will however be looking into this a closer i would rather not go with a floating piston if i don't have to, but from what i was told by them if i go with an aftermarket rod w/ stock pistons i would have to do this.

I was talking about a bad batch of main bearings when i referanced bad bearings causeing the crankwalk, from what i've heard from a few local mitsu techs is that the bearing material was to soft and hence the walking issue. I will be going through the motor with caution. I have a new t-belt laying around i'll use it.

has anyone used the rally t-belts? from what i understand ralliart makes a super belt for the evo rally cars. Anyone know where to get them?

[TalonEvolution]

Call TAD Motorsports. If anyone sells the Ralliart timing belt, its them.

(847)550-8116 phone
(847)550-8018 fax

[SlowAWD]

There is no such thing as a "rally t-belt." The P/N for the EVO 1-7 timing belt is the same as ours. The only thing you can do is put a new one on. A long with a new tensioner. Combined (with the lack of balance belt) you won't have to worry about it.

[AWDDOHC]

Now this is what I wanted to see in Advanced Tech, and really you guys have missed a few things, so you have to cut him a break and leave it here.

If you are getting eagle rods, why are you using your stock pistons? If you are not making enough power to break those pistons, you could use cheaper 1G rods and be fine.

I don't know about using the stock mitsu bearings either. I hate to be a sheep and follow everyone else, but the clevite list is far longer than the list of people I know using their stock manufacturers bearings. My brothers endurance and street stock cars, my engine builders (and all the engines he builds) not to mention engine builders like John Lingenfelter. Although he does mention in his book that others carry different opinion, their not wrong, just different.

Really, when I took my engine to the machine shop a few weeks ago, we had to spend the better part of the afternoon finding the parts I wanted. Ferrara's catalog didn't have 4g63 vavles, his bearing book didn't list the 4g64, and the amount of time spent on hold with distributors was amazing.


Hmm about the building it in the car.....why? Here's what you should do, take it out, then take it to the machine shop and have them rebuild it, from oil pan to valve cover gasket, and you should folow their advice, because for the most part they will be right. Also any reputable shop will warranty their work if the do all of it.

I guess I could have the joy of bolting my stroker motor together, but why when my engine builder is willing to warranty a fully custom motor that he has never seen before?

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

1. Get rid of the eagle rods. Do not use them. They are weak and have horrible quality control. Get Pauter rods.

2. Pull the block. Trust me it makes life soooo much easier.

3. I would disassemble the bottom end and hot tank it.


Actually here's a MUCH better option. Get a used 6 bolt and rebuild it outside of the car. Drop it in using the magnus's method <yeah I know you like dsmperformance and all, but it's not like you'd be having them do the work>. Anyway that's my .02 cents worth.

[AWDDOHC]

Eagle rods are junk? I think that maybe more of a personal opinion than anything else. My engine builder recommends them and builds most of his engines with them, with the bulk of his business being race cars (grand am, mini fours, and late models). With his sons nine second all motor nova running eagle 6.2" rods being the best example (and yes I have seen the motor torn down).

Granted I won't argue the fact that the pauter rods are better. But I think this is like the people who like Comp Cams complaining about how Crane Cams are garbage

I was going to get Crowers until he pointed the eagles out to me for a cheaper price. Despite the horible quality of these rods, he recommends them even though he will have to replace the mif they break, and would have made more money off of seling me Crowers, which he is also a distributor for

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

Well I know two people who broke Eagles and weren't making a whole hell of a lot of power and were only revving to 8k so I wouldn't call it an opinion, what I saw of their 4G63 rods they are junk......

not disputing they may make good cams for domestics, I wouldn't know, I could care less about anything coming out of detroit.

[AWDDOHC]

well, I guess I'll see- its his money I'm playing with anyways

[widebody]

I'm pulling the motor, after i got it apart i realized what i was up against and after all i'm doin i might as well go all the way, have the block tanked and decked (have to with the metal headgasket) and it'll allow me to have ime to paint the engine bay. reason i was tryin to do it in the car was i wanted to have it together by the shootout, i'm still gonna try but i don't think it'll be done. Anyway, i'm sticking with eagle rods, i don't know what you saw but the machining on these rods is awesome, and they are very very close to balance. Anyway everyone i know who has seen my rods has commented on the quality of the work. The pistons stay unless the block needs to be overbored, which i doubt, i called up race engineering and finding aftermarket pistons in stock bore is like finding a virgin in a whore house.

I really apreciate all you guys comments on this, and thanks for helping me realize that this isn't something i can pull off quickly, I'll take my time and do it right the first time so i don't have to do it again.

[NosLaser]

Okay, I figured I'd jump in here. Mr. Widebody, I must first ask you this question. How much power/how far do you plan on going with your car? That question right there should be your single most determining factor when it comes to what type of rebuild you should do. If you *EVER* plan on making some decent power (500+) then I would get everything done now, and never have to go back in again. Out of curiosity, are you keeping with factory pistons because of money situation, or other reasons? (BTW, I have a set of .020 over ((.50mm)) 2g pistons brand new in the box that I will sell you for my cost if you decide to have your block bored) Here is my idea of a nice rebuild on a short block, and is currently what I am doing to mine: My advice is to get the block bored. It is always nice to start with a nice new cylinder wall surface..the rings will create a perfect seal, and that is where most of your power is. After some heat cycling/mileage, the cylinder walls will get a glaze on them, and will most likely not retain a nice cross-hatch. Get the block bored and honed. Another really cool thing to get done at this point is to have the block align honed. For those that don't know, align honing is when they make your main journals completely round...they will machine off material from the caps (if neccessary) to make "a perfect circle" (Maynard rocks btw!!). Now, I am having my block o-ringed, which I recommend for high HP applications, but may not be neccessary in your situation. You can't run a metal head gasket with an O-ring anyway. I'm getting my block done with a copper O-ring, and will be using a Felpro gasket. (unless plans change) You already mentioned it, but get the block decked as well. Another thing I would do, it have the oil gallies cleaned...you can use a die grinder with a small stone bit to get in there and clean them up a a bit, smooth out rough edges, etc. Remember, any rough edges or casting points are hot spots that are prone to start cracks. By smoothing them out, you are in essence de-stressing the block on a small scale. Of course, replace all the freeze plugs before re-assembling the block. On to the crank. If your crank is in good shape (you can't tell with the naked eye, you MUST have it magnafluxed) then go ahead and have it polished and get the ENTIRE rotating assembly balanced. Crank, rods, pistons, flywheel, clutch, and harmonic balancer (damper pulley). I'm assuming you are doing your own rebuild with the help of friends and what not, so pay EXTRA attention to the following: all your bearing clearances, and your piston to wall clearance. Use the amount of power, and the type of heat your motor will be generating to set your piston to wall clearance. As you know, the pistons will expand as they are heated, so you want to give yourself a little room. I'm going to be setting mine at around .0045-.0055 (haven't decided yet) because I run turbo and NOS, and will be using a zero silicon JE piston. You don't want to set the clearance so loose that you get piston slap at sane engine speeds, but yu also want to take into account the expansion factor. Lastly, make sure the head is decked as well. You wanna get a good seal, especially with those finicky metal head gaskets. Use ARP rod, and head studs, but buy yourself a set of new factory main bolts. You really don't want to re-use them, as I am sure the 2g's have stretch bolts of some sort. Check all your torque specs, yada yada and take your time with the rebuild. You NEVER want to rush to get the car ready for an event. Take time, do the job right, and do it ONCE. There will be other events. Good luck, and let me know if you need anything.

[NosLaser]

<<2001 Mutted and Back in Black
"who wants some">>

P.S. I'll take some when you are done ;)
:::licks lips::: Mmmmmm... 2g's.

[widebody]

Originally posted by NosLaser
<<2001 Mutted and Back in Black
"who wants some">>

P.S. I'll take some when you are done ;)
:::licks lips::: Mmmmmm... 2g's.


thats actually not a bad idea, of course i'll need some dyno time before i venture out onto the highyways of south florida:)

[NosLaser]

Uh oh...feeling confident are we eh? ;) Actually, I wish you best of luck. It would be nice to know there is more DSM bretheren out there with some killer highway mph. My goal is 600+ to the wheels, and I want 135++ traps. JE pistons, pauter rods, etc etc. I'll keep ya'll posted.

[NosLaser]

Rob,

I don't want to talk about it over the forum, but email me privately at noslaser@earthlink.net and let's talk about your motor rebuild. I'll see what I can do for you.

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

As an adition to what Aslan said, make sure that you also use high temp loctite or something of that sort on EVERY SINGLE freeze plug, nut, and bolt. Nothing is worse than having one bolt loosen up and kill a new engine.
Also be VERY VERY careful with the tolerances on the bearings. A local machine shop didn't properly align 3 of my friends bearings and he got crankwalk after 3k. If you screw it up you will get crankwalk <on any engine, not just a 4G63>.

[widebody]

it'll be good, the shop is alighn honing the mains, clevite main bearings, micro polishing the crank. All in all it's the best way to go, but now i'm not gonna be going to the shoot-out, oh well theres always next year

[widebody]

Well, friday we got the motor out and disassembled. Rod and main bearings were perfect, very little wear on the cylinders, and no play in the crank. I'm going to have to go with a .020 overbore and run weisco pistons my buddy who is building the motor doesn't feel safe runnin the cast 95's and wants to go forged. Got a few questions for everyone.

rings: whats everyones experiance, should i go with total seal, or a decent moly standard ring

block girdle: do all 7 bolts come with intergrated mains? when i pulled my 6 bolt apart only the outside mains where intergrated not the thrust, on my 7 bolt all the mains are intergrated. just wondered if this was normal.

front cover: should i replace this, no apparent wear and it meets factory spec on the oil gears, do i need to replace it or reuse the old one?

All in all both i and my mechanic were impressed with the condition of everything in the motor, i guess this is proof in the pudding for changing the oil every 2500mi. I'll keep ya posted, if anyone wants to see pics of the motor being built let me know and i'll snap of a few i'll be working on it every night this week.

[Phoenix]

Sooo...what's so bad about floating pistons? I'm using '90 big rods in my engine, and the machine shop recommended that I have the small ends bored and bushed. There's a nice little bearing up there and the piston has no lateral movement on the rod, just a silly ability to rotate on the pin VERY easily. no slop, just the ability to move. Not tight like the stock setup that was pulled from the motor...

[widebody]

there's nothing wrong with a floating piston. just about any aftermarket piston comes that way.

[blunttwister]

it seems like you are going through a lot of trouble to just have more trouble in the future. 2G motors are cursed! many reputable shops have rebuild 2g motors using only the best machinest, highest quality products and they build motors for a living, and they still get cw(magnus/rre). why do you think they both swap 1g motors in now? if you are pulling the 2g motor i see no reason to put it back in ever.

i was checking out your site and i noticed a few things that should also be addressed.
1. you are still using your 2g head, unless its ported/vavle job(doesnt say on site) its contrasts what you want in a fwd, TOP END.
2. you have a small greddy fmic, these are known to not flow well 400-500cfm(dont quote me), this would be a restriction in your current setup, let alone your future one. sell the greddy($400-500). use that towards a big greddy/apex but for $$$$, i'd get a spearco 2-216 side/side(2.5in/out)(28*3.5*10) flows 720(1.5psi drop) and looks sweet. this would fill the front of your badass ride nicely. if you want a pic i can send you one on/off a 97gsx.


Motor swap:
you have 2 options, the MAGNUS way of re-using your 2g head, get it portmatched to a 1g intake mani/tb and get a decent head job. this will give you flow close to if not better than a 1g head. get whatever rods you want(pauter/eagle/bigrods), get your forged pistons. now you have a setup that can handle all you can throw at it, not to mention a supra killing top end(repeat w/me "we must take out the supras"), and you dont have that evil cw lurking in the shadows.
or use a 1g block and head(rre) which is more complicated, but works as well.

NOSLaser:
<<P.S. I'll take some when you are done
:::licks lips::: Mmmmmm... 2g's.>>>
what about 2g's w/1g insides,
2g looks, 1g speed.

simplified:
so you would need a bare 1g block(cheap), whatever rods/pistons you want. 1g intake mani/tb(super cheap), head job, bigger fmic. sounds simple.

[NosLaser]

<<<NOSLaser:
<<P.S. I'll take some when you are done
:::licks lips::: Mmmmmm... 2g's.>>>
what about 2g's w/1g insides,
2g looks, 1g speed.>>>

Why, certainly!! I'll race anything from a roll...1g's, 2g's, Supra's, Vipers, Bikes, etc etc..

[ShapeGSX]

As far as I am concerned, if you are rebuilding any 4G63T that has not had crankwalk problems, DON'T REMOVE THE MAIN BEARING CAPS!

Getting the thrust bearing aligned is a job that is just too easy to get wrong. It took me 3 bearings before I got it right (at $65 a pop, and a LOT of time and energy).

Mitsu does a good job in this respect...at least on the engines that don't get crankwalk.

Remember, there are a number of causes of crankwalk. One of which I have positively identified as a misaligned bearing cap. Too many people rebuild these engines (6-bolts and 7-bolts) and end up with a misaligned bearing and getting crankwalk 50 miles later.

I see at least one email every 2 weeks from someone who's car stalls when they press in the clutch after a rebuild. And these are from experienced machine shop jobs.

[ShapeGSX]

One more thing to add for the archives. If you use ARP main studs, you MUST get the block line bored.

[Rdy2race]

you will find the flaws in floating pistions soon enough and on your own, I have tried, you will learn. Some need to learn on their own.

It will work just a word of advise stay away from heavy knock, this is the weak point of a floating pin.

N E Way your choise ( PS not all aftermarket pistions are made for turbo car abuse. )

Aslan,
Love the, "a perfect circle" Referance. It hit me before I finished reading the Maynard part of it :D
one of the other things needed for speeding. Good music


just B/C a company make a good V8 rod doen't mean that they make a kick ass 4 banger rod. I am not saying that the rods are good or bad but what I am saying is don't base your opinions on a rod that is NOT made for your car.

Example in point! Felpro gaskets. if I was building a Chevy. SURE they are good gaskets if this is for my Mitsu?? FACTORY is the answer. you will find out about that Fel-Pro gasket also after a few hard passes.

I wish you the best of luck but I am reserving the
"I TOLD YOU SO!!!! NANNY NANNY POO POO" rights when it all goes wrong

Childish? yes. Reasons for it? yes. Do i wih you the best of luck? yes

So with that
Good Luck

BM-

[widebody]

ok i think some of you didn't read all of the stuff i'm putting on the car, no problem i can run down the list no that everything is set in stone. As far as using a 2g 7bolt instead of a 1g block, my motor was perfect when dissasembled, i don't see why i should redo a 150k 1gblock when i have a perfect 70k 2g block, i realize the crankwalk issue makes everyone queasy about this but i have complete faith in my machinist and engine builder to address all the issues i've given them every v-faq and piece of material on the issues that i could find and they both seem to feel that they can build a walk free motor.

so heres the motor:
20 over block, alighn honed, flash removed, balance shafts removed.
Micropolished crank
wiesco custom pistons 8.5/1 compression
eagle rods (i trust them, maybe i'm blind but i've only heard good things about them from the people who know them)
91 head ported polished 1mm oversize valves, bowl work (thats all the porter will tell me, he wants to keep some of his secrets)
91 intake and TB
custom ss equal length exhaust manifold
mutt 3 with the turbonetics housing vice the garrett
dsm performance front mount
crower race grind cams race springs and titanium retainers

arp head and main sutds, mitsu gaskets including mitsu metal headgasket (i have a stocker if you guys know someone who needs one came in the kit) stock rod and clevite main bearings.

I think thats about it i'll be controlling it all with a pms, manual boost control and switching to a early 95 ecu with todds mods (raiseing rev limiter to 8500) I appreciate all you guys input on this it's my first major rebuild outside of the school that i'm doing but the guys i'm using to help are very good at what they do and i trust them completely. We'll see how it goes

[ShapeGSX]

Just make sure that when they go to tighten down the main caps they:
1. tighten down the caps so they are seated.
2. loosen the bolts
3. Tighten them down finger-tight
4. Bang the crank on the timing belt side to push the bearing as far to the flywheel side as they can.
5. (CRITICAL) Pry the crank towards the timing belt side.
6. (CRITICAL) Tighten down the main caps they are prying the center of the crank towards the timing belts side of the engine. It must be pried WHILE they torque.

Then check the thrust tolerance using a feeler gauge. Make sure that it is the same all the way around the bearing. Then check the thrust tolerance using a dial indicator. These values should match! If they don't, restart from step 1.

And I'd also take a look at this page, and consider the mod to the thrust bearing that they make:
http://www.atra-gears.com/crankshaft/

And search for my posts on the DSMTuning list on http://www.yahoogroups.com .

[widebody]

thanks shape, i have that info and plan on following it to the tee.

[blunttwister]

<<<i have complete faith in my machinist and engine builder to address all the issues i've given them every v-faq and piece of material on the issues that i could find and they both seem to feel that they can build a walk free motor.>>

1st of all, i truly wish you the best of luck w/your new setup.

its hard to believe that machinist and engine builders that work religiously on dsm's and still cant build a walk free motors, but your guys are sure they can because they read vfaq and other material. if it was that easy, then CW wouldnt be a problem, but it is. considering the only additional cost would be a 1g block, it seems like very cheap insurance to me.

Well you had everything i thought you needed:
1g head/tb/intake
bigger fmic
cams

So whats the due date on the beast?

best of luck.

[widebody]

it should be up and running the second week of august, it's in the middle of everything as we speak. as far as a 6 vs. 7 bolt, i honestly don't think it makes a diff, what i do think makes a diff in it is the main girdle and people not seating the bearings right when they assemble a 7 bolt....we'll see

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

Don't use crower cams, they are not actually forged. They are too weak of billets for cams. I know quite a few people that have had their's go flat. Similar to the problem with webcams <which also are not actually forged>.

Spend the extra on HKS cams which actually use the proper forged steel <can't remember the grade number off the top of my head>.

[AWDDOHC]

I have to respond to this issue of Crower and Eagle making inferior products.

Between the two of them, I would imagine they have over eighty years of racing experience (without looking it up). They are top of the line, with crower internals pushing cars faster than any HKS car.

Now, to make a billet you pour molten steel into a mold, then put an enormous amount of pressure on it until it cools.

When it comes down to it, a 4340 rod billet for a ford is the same as a chevy, dodge, honda, toyota, ferrari whatever.

The machine work is an area that can be messed up, but my machine shop reported to me that when you buy top of the line (forged) rods, they usually come in perfect condition, ready to drop in.

As far as the cams, again, a mitsu cam is really no diferent than any other cam (save for a geo and new dakota motor that have hollow cams). They all essentially require the same level of hardness.

Also why does extreme (I believe the owners of the fastest AWD DSM) sell web cams if they are such garbage? This company does not already have history longer than most board member s have been alive, so I had to pull a DSM specific example.

So, all things being considered, and realizing that it really would cost no more to produce good rods as opposed to cheap rods with their curent production facilities, why would these companies shoot themselves in the foot as they are entering the import market? A market that in reality, reaches much further than the SB chevy and ford 5.0 market, as imports are spread much further around the world than the big three.

Just a couple of good answers of why they would cut their quality control, and I will call my guy and upgrade to Crower rods and off my web cams for a pair of HKS
units

[blunttwister]

about the web cams, here is an example of web cams going bad. installed in july of 2000 and bad(ground flat) by june of 2001. you can check out his site.
http://www.twingles.com/ideck
just below his dyno sheet is a pic of the worn cams.

just because a company has made quality products for domestics doesnt mean it will be the same for imports. how much experience do you think crower has making cams for a dsm? you dont see hks making cams for sb chevy or 302, do you? no.

[Edited by blunttwister on 07-13-2001 at 01:03 AM]

[AWDDOHC]

ok, I understand that cams go flat. It happens in all cars with all makes of cams.

Of weird things I have actually witnessed, I saw a cam go flat in a GM factory crate motor in less than a months time, and a connecting rod shoot out the side of a jeep with 15,000 miles on it (actually, this was a pretty old jeep, as it had basically been trailered to and from the rubicon each year since it was bought).

I'll get back when I read the site

[AWDDOHC]

Ok, erad the site and have a correction.

Crower has only been in business for 40 years- I had actually thought that they had been around since the original hot rod days (20's and 30's)

The guy who has the webcams site seems to have faith in web cams still, as he is ordering (or has ordered) another set of cams.

I understand that people aren't nessacarily able to transfer skills, but large companies like HKS and Crower have engineering teams that figure these things out.

I am reasonbly sure metalurgy does not know the difference import and domestic and crower and HKS.

Now, I believe that you could argue that Crower has less experience in making cams that out perform HKS cams, but the straight structural strength, I am not convinced of yet.

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

The last disscusion I remember about this was a couple days ago on the nwdsm egroup. I've seen it on a couple boards/egroups. A few time on nabr.

I never said it happens to EVERY cam that web/crower make, but it's not something I'd risk.

Their quality control is the same, really? So that's why all the cam companies jury rig tooling equipment setup for V8s and grind all their cams slightly off index? Hmm I didn't think that was quality control.
That applies to every single 4 cylinder cam I have ever seen, including my HK$ cams. One exception, schrick cams my friend imported for his VW.....

Comparing domestic pushrod v8s to import four valve per cylinder DOHC engines is like apples and oranges. Yeah they're both internal combustion engines, but they are of a different design, and go through different types of stresses.

I could care less if you guys put webcams, crowers, whatever in your cars. They're not mine, it's not my money if you find out you were a test mule and it went wrong.....

BTW Andre didn't buy another set of webcams, they replaced his under warranty. He was very hesitant to put a new set in. He strongly considered getting HKS cams, but decided to trust web/rre.....

From: HWAUTO@H...
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2001 9:20 am
Subject: Re: 420A Cams


--I can only and this. A personal friend of mine just resently
snapped his intake cam which was a Crower type R spec. for a Integra.
He has made a few phone calls to Shops in Cali. and found out that
other people are having the same problem at least in the Honda Cams.

- In nwdsm@y..., "Creative Concepts" <concepts@i...> wrote:
> In yesterday's mail I received Crane Cam's Import power catalog.
They have quite a few grinds for the 420a DOHC Neon Motor. The
best thing is that all their race grinds are made from 8620 billet
and not cheap cast units like what crower is pushing. Thier
pricing seemed a little bit high, but again they are made from 8620
which does cost more money.
>
>
> Email me dirrectly if any of you Non Turbo guy's want some
additional information about the grinds that are available.


> Thanks
>
>
> Quinn


From: "Creative Concepts" <concepts@i...>
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2001 10:20 am
Subject: Re: [nwdsm] Re: 420A Cams


8620 is the only way to do a roller cam blank. (In my opinion). Right now
all Aftermarket cam blanks(except HKS) sold in the US by Crower and WEB are
made from the same company. They are made from cast blanks. Don't be
fooled by their claim of being billet. Cast Billet and 8620 Billet Bar
Stock cams are two different animals. I have a set of custom ground
crower cams here that I purchased to put in my race motor that is currently
on the engine stand. We have decided to go a different way because we
will not run the cast blanks that both Crower and Web are using. I'll sell
the cams real agressively priced if anyone is looking for a set. The cams
are larger than their largest off the shelf grind.

quinn

-What are the grinds for the 4g63 ? I have used the HK$ 264 and 272
in a 96 gs-t w/ t3t04e and found a little better top-end. I have also
seen problem with the Web Cams showing only 9 inches of vaccum. Base
timing had to be advanced to get the car to idle. This has happened
on a few cars. RRE made the Web Cams sound like the Second Coming
with bigg HP gains and Little idle Issues .

[Rdy2race]

Wide B use facts not "what you think. The problem with the bolcs are NOT the bottom end. people are not blowing out the mains, Now also to backj this more then it needs to be the amount of bolts have NOTHING to do with how strong it is. This is only used to tell they appart. it's a simple way

All the lowerend bolts are smaller on you motor. Good for revs but bad for taking a beating. This is the reason people run 6 bols over 7 bolt motors. Mails bearings are smaller in the 7 bolt and blablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablabla

I don't really care to go on but I am only correcting your info that was posted B/C it's not like you even wanting to hear what anybody has to offer you. So this post if for the others and so that they are not mis lead by your "IDEAS" and they can get some "FACTS"

BM-

[AWDDOHC]

I defer to your better judgement.

[widebody]

Originally posted by Rdy2race
Wide B use facts not "what you think. The problem with the bolcs are NOT the bottom end. people are not blowing out the mains, Now also to backj this more then it needs to be the amount of bolts have NOTHING to do with how strong it is. This is only used to tell they appart. it's a simple way

All the lowerend bolts are smaller on you motor. Good for revs but bad for taking a beating. This is the reason people run 6 bols over 7 bolt motors. Mails bearings are smaller in the 7 bolt and blablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablabla

I don't really care to go on but I am only correcting your info that was posted B/C it's not like you even wanting to hear what anybody has to offer you. So this post if for the others and so that they are not mis lead by your "IDEAS" and they can get some "FACTS"

BM-

seemed to me alot of people where throwing around ideas on the subject of crankwalk, and noone knew for sure (still don't) as to why it actually happens to some, and not all motors in the 95-99 model year. It's cool though the motor i have didn't crankwalk and from the shape of the bearings, wasn't going to anytime soon thats why i want to reuse it.

On a personal note, iv'e taken everyones opinions in, pretty much someone on this thread has a opinion on the parts i chose, i'm not saying they are wrong, but I'm sticking with what i have. That doesn't mean i don't value there opinions, and you Bill with your above comment has made me look like an ass, when all i asked was a few questions on rebuild experiances. i understand you own a shop, and you have "your" way of doing things, and i really wanted your opinion but not the atttude.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for your input, and i was reading everyword over and over to make sure i got it all, now when the guys are putting the motor together i'll know what i should be looking at as it is assembled.

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

I think Bill was just trying to point out the fact that, crankwalk aside, the 7 bolt is an inherently weaker engine. 6 bolt swaps aren't just about crankwalk.

[widebody]

I can see that, but answer me this, a 7 bolt does use smaller main bolts then a 6, however it has integrated main caps including the thrust. wouldn't this greatly increase the strength? also Bill mentioned that the smaller size of the bolts adding in a quicker revving engine, how so, i thought only riciprocating assembly came into play, and valve train when it came to building a faster spinning motor.





Originally posted by Rdy2race


All the lowerend bolts are smaller on you motor. Good for revs but bad for taking a beating. This is the reason people run 6 bols over 7 bolt motors. Mails bearings are smaller in the 7 bolt and blablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablabla


BM-

[WickedTalon]

I'm so glad that this topic is being spoken about right now. I have a 90-91 engine sitting on my porch right now that I'm pulling apart with the intention of rebuilding (obviously). My current motor has very low compression (lowest being 115 on a hot motor), but fortunately still runs well. There is a lot of great information that you guys have here. I hope that I can get all the idvice from you guys that I will need. Fortunately, I have a friend that has built up a 4G63 as well as connections to a local shop that has rebuilt quite a few of them.

I plan on doing everything right the first time through as I don't want to have to do it again. Due to financial restraints, I am only going to go with 8.5:1 '95 pistons. What difference will overboring the cylinders make in horsepower and perhaps 1/4 mile time? Also, since I have an AWD system, I'm interested in what I can do to gain as much top end as possible, hopefully without loosing too much low end.

I'm keeping my questions simple, but feel free to get as technical as you wish.

Thank you.

[ShapeGSX]

Basically, my whole point was that by taking apart a perfectly good, crankwalk free 2G engine to rebuild the mains is probably inviting crankwalk to take a visit to your engine. :(

It is better to leave the main assembly alone on a known good factory built engine.

[AWDDOHC]

How many 2g blocks get crankwalk? 1%, 5%?

I would imagine 5% (even 1%) is way to high of a number or a lot of these cars would have had to been replaced as lemons, probaly enough to issues a recall.

one percent doesn't seem like a high number, but compared to the crank walk you get in other motors (probaly less than .1%), its huge

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

A lot of rebuilt engines get crankwalk, it's not easy to get the bearings lined up....

[widebody]

Originally posted by ShapeGSX
Basically, my whole point was that by taking apart a perfectly good, crankwalk free 2G engine to rebuild the mains is probably inviting crankwalk to take a visit to your engine. :(

It is better to leave the main assembly alone on a known good factory built engine.

originally i was, but in order to have the crank checked then polished it has to be out of the motor. as well as balanceing the bottom end. It goes out monday to get machined and all, so i should have it assembled next weekend. I'll snap off a few pics of the bottom end install.

[BoostLE]

diggin up an ooooOOOOLLD post :)

how's the car running widebody??

I'm going through the same situation right now with a dead 7bolt that knocks like Loren's car.

I have 5k to spend and i'm going 6bolt, most likely built by RRE.

[DSMu4ia]

CRANKWALKED!

[widebody]

yep, all the bearings where perfect except the thrust which wore down the thrust side and burnt, caught it before it wrecked the crank, everything looks good despite it, don't believe it was misalighned, guy who built the motor thinks it was oil starved due to the desighn of the mitsu bearing.
On a side note learned something interesting when i went for a new bearing, not only did mitsu change the thrust bearing desighn mid jun 97' the also changed blocks, the post june 97 block has a differant part number then the pre june block. I think i was just destined to fail, oh well I'm building a 6 bolt this summer and hopefully i can limp this motor till then

[countersniper]

WOW this whole thread is a trip. It is awesome. It is the epitomy (hope it's spelled correct) of ignorance. I am just sayin that he was forwarned and he proceeded to build the 7 bolt anyway. He thought he had competent machinists and all that. But look where he is now!

I think this thread needs to be stuck at the top of the forum so people rebuilding their motors can be directed to.

P.S. The 6 bolt will kick ass!

[widebody]

thanks
I appreciate that, maybe i should have built a 6 bolt first, but the motor had no sign of crankwalk when it was disassembled so we went ahead, but why explain myself for every point i make it will have a counter point to be made and this will turn into fued. I'm fixing my seven bolt and we'll see what happens if it fails again then the 6 bolt goes in, besides that every other part in the motor was the right decision.

[Tondar]

I applaud widebody for making an attempt. Too many people these days get their so called education from the internet instead of real world experience/books/etc..

I hope you get it right this time

[BoostLE]

geez countersniper...i wouldn't say he's the epitomy of ignorance man. :rudolph:

It could have worked, and might work the second time around. Maybe if he uses the CRCO alignment stuff on the 2nd motor it'll stay together??

someday someones gonna figure it out. but for poor bastards like me...i'm building a 6bolt as we speak, just gotta decide on ross+eagles, or 7.8+big rods.

[widebody]

Originally posted by Tondar
I applaud widebody for making an attempt. Too many people these days get their so called education from the internet instead of real world experience/books/etc..

I hope you get it right this time


Thanks, I'm hoping it can be resolved. It's true they always run the strongest before they break the car felt extremely good and I was ready to start runnig it and hit the dyno it was funny i had mad the appointment to get the pan pulled and the bottom end inspected before i heard it start to click and was on my way there when it started. So i'll keep everyone updated i want to get it right then i think at the end of the year I'll sell it and start something new, or maybe take the car one step further who knows.

[sleeper142]

as far as the eagle rods and stock pistons are concerned... it cant be done, ive already traveled that road. I ended up getting wisecos (group buy for 390) the reason being is the eagle rods are setup for a full floating wrist pin, and the stock 95 pistons are not, they are meant to be press fit. This is all fine and dandy but even if you bored your rods, i dont think you could do it, because by the time you removed the bushing on the end of the rod (piston side) youll have too big of a hole. And the 21mm (i believe) stock wrist pin wont fit, so then youd need to have custom wrist pins made, and then bore your pistons to fit.... more effort than its worth. Instead, put your money and effort into doing it right (get a 6bolt block, and never have to worry about CW again) and remove the block, trust me its the easiest option in the long run. then youll have a bullet proof bottom end, i would personally NEVER build a 2g bottom end, i think its a lost cause honestly.
hope this helps
Albert

[countersniper]

Originally posted by BoostLE
geez countersniper...i wouldn't say he's the epitomy of ignorance man. :rudolph:

It could have worked, and might work the second time around. Maybe if he uses the CRCO alignment stuff on the 2nd motor it'll stay together??

someday someones gonna figure it out. but for poor bastards like me...i'm building a 6bolt as we speak, just gotta decide on ross+eagles, or 7.8+big rods.

A square wheel doesn't roll. So why try to make it?
Yea I agree that someone, someday will figure out the cause of CW. But unless you have cash to burn, why be the guinea pig?

How many big name shops run a 7 bolt in their car? Although that may not compare as they probably do regular rebuilds. But so many people have tried to fix this problem only to be dissappointed in the end. And end up with the same problem.
Like I said befor ewish ya the best with whatever set-up you go with.

[widebody]

Well we are gonna try and save the 7 bolt i have the crco.com race dowel kit coming and a new set of bearings from clevite to go in and we'll run 20-50 weight in it and see how long it lasts. I lucked out this time the crank was salvagable, hopefully it'll last the year so i can get the 6 bolt built exactly as the 7 bolt was. I'm sticking with the eagle/wiesco combo for the money nothing else can touch it. So i'll be runnin the shit outta the 7-bolt in some ways it's kinda cool not worring about blowing it because you know it's doomed, in other ways it sucks ass.

[Tondar]

I'm sticking with the eagle/wiesco combo for the money nothing else can touch it.

That's the same setup I'm using on my 6 bolt. I got both on group buys, but one of the rods had a little nick in the side (stress risor) so I'm sending them back for another set. Still waiting to receive the Wiseco's.. What are your thoughts on ceramic and teflon coatings?

[sleeper142]

Originally posted by Tondar


That's the same setup I'm using on my 6 bolt. I got both on group buys, but one of the rods had a little nick in the side (stress risor) so I'm sending them back for another set. Still waiting to receive the Wiseco's.. What are your thoughts on ceramic and teflon coatings?


Excellent choice, we prolly got our stuff from the same GP, i have my eagles, and im just waitin on my wisecos... cmon kevin! hehe
Albert

[widebody]

price wise i can run this combo for about the same price as a set of crower rods, I have no experiance with the coatings for the pistons so i can't comment, I hope maybe people will learn from my drama, i think if i could go back i would have gotten the dowel kit while rebuilding the motor, but i thought if i used the same bearings (new not the exact same but same color) and installed the crank according to what i read off the digest i would be cool, but i guess not my buddy with the shop says it is a definate oil starvation problem to the thrust, i told him about the magnus theory and he doesn't think that could be the total problem but would add to the problem he is leaning more towards the bearing itself causing the oil to evacuate the thrust surface to quickly, i hope the dowels help but honestly i have already written this short block off i just want it to last long enough to get the 6 bolt built and ready to go I have to many sponsors waiting on the car to run some decent times to bullshit around, but i will run the shit outta the 7 bolt till then;)

[turboniam]

Wow, this thread is excellent... sorry to hear about the problems widebody... but I think many people will owe you in the long run when deciding which block to build :rudolph:

Speaking of cams, any new thoughts about the Webs???

[sleeper142]

Originally posted by turboniam
Wow, this thread is excellent... sorry to hear about the problems widebody... but I think many people will owe you in the long run when deciding which block to build :rudolph:

Speaking of cams, any new thoughts about the Webs???
actually i just returned my webs, and purchased the hks 264/272 cams. how can you go wrong with hks? plus emissions will rape me with web cams, that and im a bit worried about their grind issues they had. Ive also head things about how their ramp profiles are too tall or something like that, it was in another thread... search button please... Anyways i decided to go with HKS and web valve springs. And from what RRE reccomends this is a killer setup. Plus i think HKS has been out alot longer and engineering cams and such for much longer than web has, more time to work out thier bugs and such.
albert

[turboniam]

I saw the same thread using the search button :)

[ShapeGSX]

I hate to say "I told you so." So I won't. :)

I just hope I don't end up not saying it again.

Err...or something like that.

[widebody]

me too

[Endless]

Originally posted by countersniper
WOW this whole thread is a trip. It is awesome. It is the epitomy (hope it's spelled correct) of ignorance. I am just sayin that he was forwarned and he proceeded to build the 7 bolt anyway. He thought he had competent machinists and all that. But look where he is now!

I think this thread needs to be stuck at the top of the forum so people rebuilding their motors can be directed to.

P.S. The 6 bolt will kick ass!


Hmmm... my 7 bolt pounds out over 400 whp and I dont have crankwalk problems. I beat the shit out of this car too.

[countersniper]

That's great! But as we all are "supposed" to know that there are exceptions to the rule. We also all have seen or heard of small 16's runnin 11's and so on and so forth. I would hope that out of the thousands and thousands of 7 bolts, some are worth a shit. LOL.

[widebody]

so far so good the clevites were not right so we used a new mitsu set, my buddy rerouted the main oil feed so it feeds directly on to the thrust face to see if it would prolong the life. We know it'll walk again we just wanna see how long it'll go. He's gonna write up a vfaq on his bearing design but i'll try to explain it:

Basically he shot two small channels from the main oil feed galley in the thrust bearing to the flywheel side of the thrust bearing, on the thrust bearing face he drilled four small holes at an angle to feed main oil pressure directly to the face. His theory is that the bearing design itself is flawed he showed me a 302 main bearing for example. The holes in the main surface of the bearing feed oil to the crank and it gets squeezed out to the face of the bearing via these grooves on the face, well with the mitsu bearing the groove goes all the way across the bearing face, where as the 302 grooves stop a a little over halfway across the face. What does it mean?, it means the mitsu bearing dumps the oil off the face where it needs it too fast, and the 302 picks it up because the oil has nowhere to go except between the thrust face and the crank.

I know someone is gonna say mustangs get crankwalk to, I know this and so does he but for my problem it was oil starvation on the thrust bearing and this is what we came up with. So now even with double the clearance on the thrust face the car once again feels good, it's just a matter of how long it lasts, depending on that he'll put his design up for the public to try also he just doesn't wann put it out without seeing if it will last.

[widebody]

the bearing desighn is holding, several races and daily driving a total of about 600 miles on a crankwalked motor with way outta spec thrust clearance. Not a cure but this band - aid is working for me so far

[ShapeGSX]

I also did the same groove on my thrust bearing. Over 15k on it so far. But this is on a 6-bolt.

[blunttwister]

Dahm, thats 2bad widebody. But i have to say it sorry "I told you so"

quoted by me in an earlier post:
it seems like you are going through a lot of trouble to just have more trouble in the future. 2G motors are cursed! many reputable shops have rebuild 2g motors using only the best machinest, highest quality products and they build motors for a living, and they still get cw(magnus/rre). why do you think they both swap 1g motors in now? if you are pulling the 2g motor i see no reason to put it back in ever.
Motor swap:
you have 2 options, the MAGNUS way of re-using your 2g head, get it portmatched to a 1g intake mani/tb and get a decent head job. this will give you flow close to if not better than a 1g head. get whatever rods you want(pauter/eagle/bigrods), get your forged pistons. now you have a setup that can handle all you can throw at it, not to mention a supra killing top end(repeat w/me "we must take out the supras"), and you dont have that evil cw lurking in the shadows.
or use a 1g block and head(rre) which is more complicated, but works as well.
simplified:
so you would need a 1g 6bolt block(cheap), whatever rods/pistons you want. 1g intake mani/tb(super cheap), head job, bigger fmic. sounds simple.

Best of luck in the future, but i hope you learned something. Dont build up a 7bolt ever. Its to easy to just swap in a 6bolt now a days.

[widebody]

Originally posted by ShapeGSX
I also did the same groove on my thrust bearing. Over 15k on it so far. But this is on a 6-bolt.

thats good to hear, we cut two channels in the main and basically crossdrilled the bearing, 4 small holes on the thrust face to feed dirctly there, the guy that did it thinks the main problem is the bearing itself, the groove on it goes all the way across the face instead of about a little less then half on most bearings. So far I have good oil pressure and no rpm drop when the clutch is pressed but i disabled the clutch switch just for a little extra safty. I have a 6 bolt block being cut now so when this one goes in goes the 6 bolt....sometimes being a hard head bites you in the ass:)

[DAskren]

Widebody - How 'bout an update to this thread? Is the 7 bolt still going?

[widebody]

Yep, it's still running oil pressure is good, but i don't know how long it will last i maybe have 1500 miles on this thrust bearing i quit driving it so i can still get it to shows and other things the 6 bolt will go in but i'm not sure when.

[909GSX]

OMG this thread just saved me from a big mistake :)
I got a jdm 6bolt but it was in poor poor condition. I sent it back and I was like fuck it might as well rebuild the 7 bolt since I hadnt ever got crank walk figured I was safe guess not