Pro EFI vs Haltech

[Fully Spooled]

I've searched for information on this topic and have found some information to give me a slight idea on the topic but...I'm not 100% sure on the differences.

From what I gather, the big difference is that the Pro EFI has the capability to tune itself (if need be) based on the knock sensor where the Haltech cannot.

Feel free to expand...

[Peter 92TSI]

Moved to Advanced Tech

Peter

[HighPsi91]

I have no experience with the Pro-EFI but I do currently use the Haltech E6K. So far I am pretty pleased with the Haltech especially for its relatively low cost. The mapping is not 3d like the pro-efi but it is a real easy interface to use. Depending on the level of mods you have tuning it without a dyno can be very trying. It has all the features I would want (except for the lack of knock sensor) and no useless bells and wistles. I do think the knock sensor is a nice thing to utilize... however they can be misleading. I will have around 10hours of dyno time logged untill I am happy with my maps... so if you are striving for perfection you will end up on the dyno. The Haltech does not have any auto-tune capability as does the pro-efi. If I would have known about the pro-efi when I was shopping for engine management I may have chose to go that way instead.... but I would need to learn more about it.

[turbotrix]

Edit By Rdy2race
Jeff is this you. Please reply to me so that we know this is you. ( bill@holeshotperformace.com )
All that was here was a quote from HiPSI Killed for room as nick post is LONG!!



[Edited by Rdy2race on 07-26-2001 at 04:24 PM]

[Mid-Engine]

What i suggest for you awd guys is go with the autotronic it is autotune and ideal for awd. Since its hard to find a dyno to tune on. I am currently using a TECII in my mr2. Celica alltracks guys really like the autotronic vs haltek yes it cost more but there is just more tuning capabilities.

[ProjectGSX]

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=20905

I meant to post a reply and accidentally added a new thread. :P My bad. Anyways, that thread above has a link to Shawn Gradek's ProEFI install. Seems to be a much easier install than the Haltech.

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

Andre just got his at the shootout from John Shepard. He made a post to the proefi group asking for definitions on some the menus he didn't know yet. This gives you an idea of how much control you get with the proefi:

From: "Andre" <andre@s...>
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2001 8:26 am
Subject: Need help on TERMINOLOGY


I was going over the entire parameters and tables with Shawn (thanks shawn!)
for over 2 hours last night, and got about half way. I need to know if
anyone who is familiar with everything, can fill in the missing information,
and check that 'our' information is correct? I would like to have a
complete and revised version of this QuickINFO sheet so I can print it and
use it when tuning the proefi. Thanks (no i did not have the actual manual
for the software, only the 'how to move around the menus' manual)

View Menu - TABLES
------------------
- CrankFuelTable: extra fuel given to motor, on top of the other fuel maps,
when starting (fuel vs Scaled tpsPosition)
- SpeedTable: assigns the rpm intervals that you can modify upon, on the
other tables, just like the NEpoints on the safc (rpm vs rpms points)
- KnockNoiseTable: sets the filter point of knock per rpm. Basically
determines what knock is just noise, and YOU asign that noise value to the
rpm value, and that becomes the new "0" mark for real knock (knock scale vs
engine rpm)
- OXFBICONSTTable: ??? (??? vs engine rpm)
- IdleCoolTable: how much fuel gets added, on top of the other fuel maps,
depending how cold the engine is. (fuel vs coolantTempinC)
- IdleSpeedTable: controls the opening/closing of the IAC motor, at xxx
rpms. Open/close the IAC yyy amount to keep the rpms at the value set in
the "IDLE" option. (scaled IACvalues vs engine rpm)
- IdleSparkTable: control the timing as well, depending how far the rpms
wander, at idle. (timing vs rpm wandering)
- AirCompTable: how much fuel, overall, the fuel maps get, depending on the
air temp sensor values. (fuel% vs air temp in C)
- BatteryCompTable: control the injector's dead time as voltage changes in
the system, to keep the injectors running consistent even though voltage may
drop/raise from normal. (fuel ms vs battery V)
- OXErrorTable: ???
- WarmUpTable: how much fuel, overall, the fuel maps get, depending on the
coolat temp values. (fuel% vs coolant temp in C)
- ColdFuelTable: how much fuel gets added on top of the CrankFuelTable,
depending on coolant temp (fuel vs coolant temp)
- AccelAmountTable: ??? (??? vs engine rpm)
- DecelAmountTable: ??? (??? vs engine rpm)
- CTFuelNormTable: ??? (fuel% vs engine rpm)
- BoostErrorTable: used to control boost
- CTFuelPBWTable: ??? (fuel% vs engine rpm)
- AccelTPSTable: ??? (fuel% vs throttle scale)
- CatRTDLimtTable: used for egt probe in cat
- BoostLimitTable: used to control boost
- AITSparkTable: offsets the spark table as a whole, depending on the air
temp (timing vs air temp in C)
- AITIdleTable: offsets the fuel table as a whole, depending on the air
temp, at idle, depending on the intake temp (fuel% vs air temp in C)
- StartExtraTable: fuel needed to start car depending on engine's temp (fuel
vs coolant temp)
- StartDecayTable: time over which startextra fuel decays to 0 (seconds vs
coolant temp)
- StartPulseTable: additional pulse of fuel added to the first injection
depending on engine temp (fuel vs coolant c)
- LambdaTable: calibrate af ratio based upon lambda value?? (??? vs ???)
- NOSFuel and NOSSpark table: NOS related

View Menu - MAPS
----------------
- FuelMap - Basic fuel map adjustment
- IgnitionMap - Basic Timing map adjustment
- TPSRetardMap - ???
- SparkLimitMap - ???
- BoostTargetMap - Boost control map
- FuelLimitMap - ???
- ThrottleModMap - ???
- WastegateLimitMap - ???
- InjAngleMap - ???

- FuelMapLog - ???
- TimingMapLog - ???
- UserScalers - ???

View Menu - Options
-------------------
BoostLmtWG
PBWIdle
AITFcut
AITFcutrate
AITFcutTPS
Fuelcut
Fuelcutrate
Ignitioncut
IgnCutRate
KnockRate
KnockRtd
KnockInc
KnockRich
KnockDec
KnkFuelMax
KnkRtdMax
OXFB.+ve
OXFB.-ve
EngineOK
OXswitch
OXFBGain
OXFBRate
MinAFUEL
OXFBP
OXStep
OXLoad
OXspeed
DFCOLoad
DFCOSpeed
>12voltidle
A/CIdle
IdleRate
HiIdleCool
IdleTrottle
IdleSet
IdleSet+
Idleset-
HiIdleSet
HiIdleTime
HiIdle
MaxIdle
TPFilter
AccelTrig
AccellDecay
DecelTrig
DecelDecay
AccelM
AccelC
AccellLimt
IGNOffset
FuelOffset
FuelSync
TPSmin
TPSMax
microSec/Bit
LD0MPC
..Assortment of PBWs on/off..
SprayAir
SprayAon
SprayAoff
SprayLoad
FanStart
AFScaler
Pickupcomp
DelayAngle
Coilfactor
AFTrip
AFREV
WGfeedback
AltAccel
AutoEE
MassAF
TPSALSSWT
BAR
MAP
AirFlow
PBWAirMax
PBWoffspeed
Fpumpspeed
FpumpTPS
MapMin
Mapmax
Mpress
Kpress
CTTPS
CTSpeed
WGPeriod
CoolRtdStrt
CoolRtdRate
AirTempMin
AirTempMax
AirDefault
coolantMin
CoolantMax
CoolDefault
AFLWswitch
RevLight#1
RevLight#2
SprayCool
SprayCOn
SprayCoff
AccelRtd
AccelRdk
a/cOffTps
NOStpsON
Nostpsoff
alsArm
alsRelease
NoALSarm
Pumpevo3
wginvert
errorlight
IGN#Amod,b,c,d
Fuel#amod,b,c,d
CatTempM
CatTempC
Nosloadon,off
NosSpeedon,off


View Menu - Parameters
----------------------
+dthrottle
+dZthrottle
accel fuel
accel mod
accel rtd
accel trg
ADVmod
ADVcomp
ADVknock
AirFlow
AirPressure
AirPrsrF
Airtemp
AirtempF
AITIdle
AITSpark
ALSon/off
AltFuel
AltSpark
BatCompF
Battery
Boost
Boosterror
3 CAT parameters
ChargeTime
ColdTempF
CoolTempF
Coolant
CoolantRtd
CrankFuel
CrankTime
CYCCNT
dIdleSpeed
Debug1,2,3
-dThrottle
Dwell
-DZthrottle
EngineSpeed
Error1
Error2
FlowPerRev
FlowSumC
FlowSumRaw
Fuel(map)
Fuel(mod)
FuelAir
FuelAlt
FuelBaro
FuelCrank
FuelKnock
FuelLdF
FuelLimit
FuelLmt(m)
FuelLmtMod
FuelMod
FuelOXFB
FuelPulse
FuelPulse#a,b,c,d
FuelWarmUp
HiIdleCount
Idle
IdleCounter
IdleMod
IdleSet
IdleSpeed
IgnLimit
IgnLmt(m)
IgnLmtMod
InjAdvMod
InjAngle
INJDTIM
Injection
Injection#a,b,c,d
Knock
KnockFuel
KnockRaw
KnockRawPk
KnockRtd
Lambda
LMTSTAT
Load
LoadPoint
MapAsLoad
MapRaw
Max+Afuel
Max-Afuel
..few OX parameters..
OxygenRaw
PBWMode
Ptime
ResetCount
RetardMod
SINJTIM
SparkAdv
SparkIdle
SparkMod
Spark#a,b,c,d
StartPulse
STATFLG
TargetBoost
TempAFuel
Throttle
TPSFuelMod
TPSPoint
TPSRaw
TPSRetard
TPSrtd(m)
VEMap
VE*FMOD
WasteMod
.. some WG parameters ..





Andre - dre99gsx - NJ Dsmer
http://www.twingles.com/ideck






It comes with values already in. Most of those menus you will never even touch, but if you need to they're there. Most important is the knock commands. You tell the proefi how much timing to retard for a given knock count, how much fuel to add for a given count. When to start changing values for a given knock sum. Also you can tell it to ignore knock counts up to a cetain level at given rpm points. Pretty badass. You really have full control of EVERYTHING.

haltech is good, but it doesn't even compare to proefi for adjustability.

I recomend you get your current setup tuned as well as possible, datalog all your parameters. Then take your timing values and injector pulsewidths and plug them into the proefi. That should eliminte some headaches.

You can sign up for the egroup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ProEFI-Tuning and read through the archives to learn more.

Dennis Grant's install page: http://www.farnorthracing.com/ click on "the car" and then go to the bottom, click on proefi ecu install.

[TheHondaKiller]

I run the Haltech E6k, and have also run an Autronic SMC. I think the Haltech is definately as good, escpecially with the easy to use software. The cost is damn near 1k less too. Both are more than adequate for any car, street or race. They have a signifigant amount of outputs and great datalogging. If your too lazy or cheap (to hire out) to put in the hours tuning your car and need autotune you have no business even thinking about installing a standalone in your car. Also I think the tec-II's suck, I don't want to reverse calculate fule tables off of volumetric effienciency, escpecially when many other factors can effect fuel that the tec-II can't even account for, let alone the ass backwards maps.

[HighPsi91]

It looks like the ProEFI has an incredible amount of control. For someone that really knows EFI and how to tune, it would be perfect. The haltech doesnt have anywhere near the amount of fuel control so tuning for perfect driveability with the haltech is a bit harder. Plus I dont think you would ever be able to get driveability as good. However the amount of control on the ProEFI could leave some people feeling very overwhelmed... even more so than the haltech. I recommend anyone looking at going standalone evaluate their goals, knowledge, and their patience closely. Making the best choice for yourself will yeild the best results.

[TheHondaKiller]

If you look at the quanity of maps the Haltech and Proefi are the same, it has some more options as far as correction factors and optional inputs, but nothing even mildly neccessary. Basically you pay near $1000 more for a few extra correction trims... what a deal!! For people with extra huge pocket books and Motec wannabe's get the proefi, otherwise save you money and put it towards something worthwhile, like your brakes to keep up with all the newly found power.

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

Knock control is a rather import feature that the haltech lacks.
It also depends on what you want to do with the car, if you are dragracing then your requirments aren't so stringent, all you care about is WOT. However for road racing, autoX, rallying, etc... you do need the extra tables to get the engine running running near the edge under ALL conditions, reliably. Remember it's not all about short blasts of WOT ;).

Also keep in mind that the PROefi does come with tables preset, while the main ignition timing and fuel maps will not be matched for your setup, the smaller nit picky controls should be fine for whatever you are doing. Until you start getting nitpicky.

Not that the haltech is bad, I just believe it's better suited for drag cars.

[Blitz]

Nick,

Do you have a Pro-Efi on your car ?

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

Nope I still have efi systems PMS. I will be getting a proefi sometime in the future though.

[TheHondaKiller]

I have a post somewhere that explains the downfall of knock control. Mainly it points to what a factory ecu select few call "phantom knock". I think tuning your car to the edge of knock then backing it off a bit is much better than using some little sensor to constantly check for knock and interpret it how it see's fit as the final say for your ignition timing, fuck that... I have the final say on my timing... I have a Haltech. I am also picking up a bit of a "proefi holier than thou" attitude here. It is totally uneccessary to use, and to answer people's questions the Haltech is perfectely streetable, I in no way see how it is biased for WOT or drag racing.
Done Venting... :-)

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

Originally posted by TheHondaKiller
I think tuning your car to the edge of knock then backing it off a bit is much better than using some little sensor to constantly check for knock and interpret it how it see's fit as the final say for your ignition timing, fuck that...

Mike then you haven't looked at the proefi deeply enough. You determine at what sum of knock the proefi pulls timing and/or adds fuel. You determine exactly how much fuel, if any, it adds for a given knock sum. You also determine how much, IF ANY, timing gets pulled. There is also a feature that allows you to have the proefi ignore knock in a given rpm range. Say you always get a knock value from 3-4k (which most of us do) due to the harmonics of the bottom end, you can have the proefi completely ignore that.

Proefi ain't PMS.

[HighPsi91]

The Pro-EFI sounds awesome. I just went 11.603 my first time out with my car. If I cant get it into the 10's I will be looking at the pro-efi real close. Tuning is so critical. I feel the Haltech lacks some very key features and maps.... that would enable tuning to the max much easier.

[TheHondaKiller]

I basically don't trust knock sensors very much due to the fact they interpret all sorts of noise as knock as well as the frequency for all engines is different. But being able to ignore the sensors input under certain conditions is very helpful, I just don't feel the need to use one at all in my case.

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

Not everyone does. It definetly is something that you have to figure out yourself.
I know Lowell Foo (flat 12 at around 120 on pump gas and a low 11 the only time he has run on race gas, with a frank 3 mind you) doesn't use a knock sensor with his M48 pro. he feels the same way.
It all depends on you and what you want to do.

[TheHondaKiller]

Obviously the Haltech is the best choice for non-knock sensor equipped vehicles for under 2k, but for people looking for knock sensing or wanting another set of correction trims then the pro-efi may be the choice for them, escpecially when compared to the pricey Motec. It really depends on your taste... and your wallet.

[Geovannie]

Who distributes the Pro EFI? Is it only for DSMS?

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

John Shepard and Jason Seibels (I can never spell Jason's last name right, I might have butchured it). Jason uses it on a RX7. It can be setup for any car, but you would have to figure out the wiring yourself.
For a dsm you can get it with a plug in harness to the stock ECU.

[Geovannie]

Yeah i know somebody building a turbo bmw thats why I ask. This seems like a really nice system. We where just planning on using Haltech.

[TheHondaKiller]

Ahh... I remember Jason from his old shop in Omaha. That's funny that he distributes ProEFI, he used to do Autronic. Where is he at these days? He still trying to run 10's in the rx-7? Small world...

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

He might still do it, I'm pretty sure he does more than just the proefi. I don't know where he lives at, but I do know he's still working on the RX7. He just added some parts and is working on the tuning again....

[dsm1gen]

jason seibols is now working for AEM and lives in California.Last time i talked to him when i lived in omaha he was working for HP motorsports. As for his RX-7 he ran a 10.3 in chicago and was close to a 9 second run but his engine blew at a little past half track.I believe he is selling the RX-7 and bought a Supra.

[EuroGSTSpyder]

Nick

I saw you typed about the plug in harness for DSM cars...I am gonna go high HP on my GST Spyder and wanted to get the connections(plug in stuff) and dataprograms for mapping the ECU...any ideas what to look for and where?

I have a friend here with a 550+ 3000GT that is willing to help me out and he has a program for that car..but I dunno if its possible to use it on a 2G Eclipse?He is ampping his 3KGT and knows alot about it but I thought I would ask you guys too...who knows alot..*S*

I wanan be able to tune the engine from the very start of the tuning part...then >I know exactly what happens with the engine while tuning it up..it would help alot!

**Sold the GS..a Spyder GST on its way:-))**

[Nick 92 TSi AWD]

You can get any obdII logger to log the stock ecu. A safc will probably be enough to control fuel.
What exactly does your friend have, a logger, fuel controller,etc..

[TRBO4WD]

I have a ProEFI. I have had it for around 7 months now. I think I have only put on about 4000 miles since getting it. I have had the worst luck with breaking parts.
So far most of what I have read over this topic has been pretty accurate. It is nice having knock protection but it can also be misleading. The knock sensor is a microphone that has a 0-5 volt output. It doesn't care if the noise is knock, external wastegate, solid hub clutch disks with drive line noise...
I also agree that the ProEFI can be overwhelming at first. You need to learn which maps and tables to play with. Some of them are strictly for better streetability. It is also important to learn right away that Maps are the base line and Tables Modify Maps. Options set up the boundaries for the Maps and Tables. Parameters allow you to view what is going on.
I went with the ProEFI because of its ability to be a plug and play ECU. I can switch back to my stock ECU with minimum effort.
I can't speak for the Haltech, but from my understanding you need to do all the wiring and splicing yourself. If you are building a race car where you don't car about the bells and whistles, it might be a better way to go... not sure...
I have spoken to Jason (the guy working on the ProEFI's) and he is currently working on modifing them to work with other types of cars... V6's with different ignition systems and so on....
-Shawn