WhoaTed
07-10-2002, 10:21 PM
The following is a compilation from various DSMtalk.com members.
<B>The Huge Camshaft Review: DSMtalk.com discussion summary, Web/HKS/Crower</B>
<img src="http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/images/articles/cams/cams.jpg" align="left" border="0">This was compiled from various threads in the "parts talk" and "parts reviews" forums. This article is intended to serve as a "quick link" to information about cam upgrades, in the words of your fellow DSMtalk.com members. Included are the usernames of those who posted comments, as well as a summary of some members who run the respective cams in their DSM's. For more information, feel free to post relevent comments to the thread linked at the end of this article, send a PM or email to a fellow DSMtalk.com member listed below (please be polite if you contact them, since you are the one asking for info), or speak to your preferred <a href="http://www.dsmtalk.com/links.php?op=viewlink&cid=3" target="_blank">DSM parts vendor</a>.
First, here is a brief summary of the function of camshafts and why you may want to consider upgrading them. Camshafts rotate and use cams (or lobes) to push against the engine’s intake valves to allow the air/fuel mixture into the combustion chambers, and also push against the engine’s exhaust valves to allow exhaust gases to exit the combustion chambers. Valve springs return the valves to their resting position, until the valves are once again pushed by the cams.
The rotating camshaft times the opening and closing of the valves in perfect concert with the pistons, safely returning the valves back to their closed positions at the end of the piston’s intake and combustion strokes.
<img src="http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/images/articles/cams/camshaftanimation.gif" align="right">The animation to the right gives an illustration of how cams work. The configuration shown is not that of a DSM, but the functionalilty of how the cams (or lobes) act on the valves is basically the same.
From the factory, an engine’s camshaft(s) are manufactured such that they provide a compromise between horsepower and drivability/comfort. However, performance oriented camshafts are available that maximize air/fuel and exhaust flows to provide additional horsepower, at certain engine speeds. To the performance enthusiast, having more horsepower where you want it is a good thing, but the “grind” (shape and angle of the cams or lobs) that maximizes horsepower where an enthusiast wants it, typically has a detrimental effect on engine performance at other engine speeds. An exaggerated example of this detrimental effect would be the sputtering and shaking of a top fuel dragster at idle. Finding the right camshaft for your DSM ultimately depends on the car’s use (will it have daily driver duties? will it be drag only? autocross only?).
An often asked question is "When do I need cams for my dsm?" The answer is certainly not cut in stone. Some DSM verterans advise that you wait until you are in the low 12s or 11s in the quarter mile. Others advise the upgrade much earlier. It depends on your other modifications (most importantly your turbo) and other factors, such as the elevation of the track you run at.
If the above brief summary leaves you with questions, you may want to take a look at this article (http://www.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm) which goes into depth.
The following reference was compiled by DSMtalk.com Staff Member 99mmcgsx (http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=1687), and provides a summary of some of the discussions that have taken place in our forums regarding popular upgrades for DSMs from HKS, Crower, and Web.
<br><TABLE BORDER=0 WIDTH=100%><TH BGCOLOR="#616161"><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FFFFFF"><B>Web Cams</B></FONT></TH><TR><TD></TD></TR></TABLE><P><b>- A SUMMARY OF WEB CAMS REVIEWS/POSTS -</b><br>
rollhard.com:
one word. GREAT
these cams give great bang for the buck increase in HP. our test car ran 14.4 without the cams. with the cams being the only modifications, we easily hit 13.9 with our trap speed increasing from 96-98mph. They are relatively easy to install and for about $500, that is a good investment for about 35-40hp gain. any questions or comments, feel free to email me.
oh yeah, you can definately hear the cams in the car. once you start your car after installing the cams, you hear it. the idle is cam idle = ) it will probably vary with your car. my idle sucked to begin with so after the cams were put it, i just played with the afc to adjust it.
Moto'freak:
I have the webcams 546/547 grind with a vpc and that alone will not work unless you have a AFC (?) I have a S-AFR and that solved the low vacuum/rich problems created from lumpy cams.
Endless:
The 546/547 webs are Intake: .400 lift and 272 degrees of duration and the exhaust side is .385 lift and 256 degrees of duration.
Junior:
I also have Webs W/ a vpc. I used a AFC to fix the crappy idle. I dont think you can fix teh idle with the ggc. The cams ROCK! great impact in the cars performance.
BigRedAWD:
When I first put the cams on my car I did not have a AFC, back then everything seemed ok. I love the fact that the cams give you a nice little kick at about 4K.
JW:
Found this at carshopinc:
Part # Description Duration @ .050" Gross Lift w/1.7
STOCK Stock Turbo Cam 174 / 165 .366" / .343"
HKS264 HKS 264 187 / 186 .392"/.374"
HKS272 HKS 272 195 / 195 .399"/.379"
546/547 Web Cams 206 / 206 .400"/.385"
ProjectGSX:
I am having issues with the Webs, period. I don't think it has anything to do with the turbo+cam combination. I can't tell if the Web's are supposed to have this much overlap, or if their quality control is just off.
If I had it to do over again, I would certainly not recommend the Web Cams. Brand new, the HKS run an extra $150. The Crower's might be a good alternative also, since they are about the same price as the Web's and I have yet to hear anything bad about them.
After playing with the BISS and advancing base timing (I have a 1G CAS) I was able to get the idle more consistent. It is still quite lumpy. Because of the jerky idle, the car shakes a lot. It is fine normally, but if you happen to have a headache or an upset stomach, it really makes the car an unhappy place to be.
Webcams did have some wear issues because they got a bad batch of blanks, but they are being replaced under warranty by the company who sold them to you.
4G63Rydah:
Webcams do NOT have higher lift. HKS has higher lift. Webcams are .400" (10.16mm) for intake and .385" (9.78mm) for exhaust. HKS are 10.3mm (.405") for intake and 9.8mm (.386") for exhaust.
BoostLE:
i failed my smog check with the webcams, but i think anycar with aggresive cams set to stock idle speed will fail.
Nick 92 TSi AWD:
Webcams use blank billets that are not really designed specifically for the 4G63. Actually they're not even really designed for a roller rocker arm valve train from what I've been told. If you look at a picture of a car with webcams you'll notice that the lobes are not centered. This contributes to the much worse idle you get with them. Their billets also are not hardened consistantly and many people have had problems with theirs going flat over time.
Webcams changed suppliers for their billets a little while back. They were not good quality. Many peoples cam lobes wore flat. They changed again and haven't had problems now. Take off your valve cover and inspect the cam lobes. If there is abnormal wear call up webcams, they warrantied the bad ones as far as I know.
19CBoosted:
As for the Webcams setup I just know what I have read on the Digest Archives. Some people have gone thru up to 3 sets since they bought them. Seems like there is some problem centered specifically on the lobes of the cams. One guy even lost some valve springs, valves, and valve retainers because of cam failures. All of which were replaced courtesy of Webcams. But, the thing is that this happened using the street setup, I don't want to imagine what could happen with the race setup. If that's the case, I hope they come out with a better design soon (if they haven't done it already). BTW, on Road Race Engineering they have a sound clip about the sound of the Webcams. They sound pretty cool!!
HighPsiAWD:
Almost all aftermarket cams for DSM's will cause a lopey idle, and that's because of the lobe center seperation.
BTW, the bad Web Cams problem has been gone for YEARS now. I've had my Webs for about a year and a half now with NO signs of wear and NO problems.
seegs:
i have webcams installed with my buschur block and 95 pistons.
the idle is very lumpy but cool. it sounds so awesome with the thermal exhaust. my car does vibrate a bit more but its not too bad. idle jumps around 750-1000 rpm. not bad at all. i love them.
as far as power goes, you'll be amazed.
DSM Storm:
In my honest experience, web cams are complete pieces of shit, my recently purchased 546/547 grind was a bad batch when I was assured directly from web that I would have no issues with them, I had a problem with a cylinder head I was building, when my machinist took it to his shop, he measured the stock cams vs. the web cams, the web cams only had 5 more thousanths lift than the stock exhaust cam, the exhaust cam from web was completely off grind, and did not match the specs they gave me, the intake cam however was fine, although my head problem had nothing to do with the cams, it was just luck on my part that my machinist caught that in advance, I got rid of those junk cams and bought a set of hks 272 I/E cams, idle is cherry, it idles and sounds awsome, its definatly choppy but im used to it from hangin out with V-8's with aggressive cams, so it was nothing new to me.
RDRKT:
Just FYI I don’t want to be waving the web cam banner. I want nothing more than to switch over my webs to a pair of HKS 272s when funds permit. Better idle and more power what could be better?
greenstreak:
I believe that it was claimed to have been a bad batch of cams and not all Web Street grinds that were having this problem. Try searching the archives at http://www.dsm.org for tons of info on this as it flooded the digest for more than a week.
ecoli:
The web cams change your idle quite a bit. My car idles much lumpier than my frends cars who have HKS and Crower cams.
It idles lumpy but its really no problem. My friends with the tamer sounding idling cams are jealous.
I don't know if I noticed a peak HP increase, but the increase in the normal HP over about 5800RPMs is very noticable. The car pulls very hard to revlimiter with the cams. I often hit revlimiter even in higher gears, if I am not paying attention, because I don't feel any dropoff in power at all, unlike with stock cams. <br>
<b>- SOME DSMTALK.COM MEMBERS THAT USE/HAVE USED WEB CAMS -</b><br>
rollhard.com
Junior
BigRedAWD
ProjectGSX
talonman69
BoostLE
HighPsiAWD
Seegs
RDRKT
firepower
ecoli
Felix
slow93
Fathouse
dre99gsx
<br><TABLE BORDER=0 WIDTH=100%><TH BGCOLOR="#616161"><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FFFFFF"><B>HKS Cams</B></FONT></TH><TR><TD></TD></TR></TABLE><P><b>- A SUMMARY OF HKS CAMS REVIEWS/POSTS -</b><br>
Sorry, the comments are not all specified as 264/264; 264/272; or 272/272<br>
Endless:
The HKS cam will work with the VPC fine but they are 264 degree cams. the idle sounds damn near stock once they are installed but they have been dynoed at a 30 plus hp gain to the wheels. (Alamo Autosports Arlington TX) on a smal 16G. HKS does offer a 272 degree cam and some people opt to use it as the with a 264 degree cam instead of both being 264's
DiamondsR4EVR:
I just e-mailed Doug's Dyno Power. …. he said the 264/273 combination idles "much worse" than the 264/264. So I'm going for the 264/264. Just though I'd spread the word
DSM Storm:
Ok, got my HKS 272 exhaust cam today, I dont read japanease so I have very little information to offer, but here are the specs on these cams.
idle is cherry, it idles and sounds awsome, its definatly choppy but im used to it from hangin out with V-8's with aggressive cams, so it was nothing new to me.
The 272's are really choppy, and they require alot of fuel to stay running at idle and with that in mind, the fumes sometimes get a bit aggravating but they do sound madman.
Intake cam opens 6 degrees BTDC
Intake cam closes 32 degrees ABDC
Exhaust Cam opens 36 degrees BBDC
Exhaust cam closes 2 degrees ATDC
This gives them a duration or 218 on both intake and exhaust side, I cannot tell you at what lift that Is at, I do not read japanease...sorry, this is the best I can offer.
anoldsman:
I have the spec cards for the 264 and 272 cams in english. They are as follows:
264 Intake
Max Valve Lift - 10.3mm (0.4055")
Centerline at 0mm vavle lift 105 deg
Intake Valve timing at 1mm (0.0394")
Valve opens at 2 deg BTDC
Valve closes at 28 deg ABDC
Valve Centerline 105 deg (WRONG - 103 deg)
264 Exhaust
Max Valve Lift - 9.8mm (0.3858")
Centerline at 0mm vavle lift 117 deg
Exhaust Valve timing at 1mm (0.0394")
Valve opens at 42 deg BBDC
Valve closes at -12 deg ATDC
Valve Centerline 117 deg (CORRECT)
272 Intake
Max Valve Lift - 10.3mm (0.4055")
Centerline at 0mm vavle lift 105 deg
Intake Valve timing at 1mm (0.0394")
Valve opens at 6 deg BTDC
Valve closes at 32 deg ABDC
Valve Centerline 105 deg (WRONG - 103 deg)
272 Exhaust
Max Valve Lift - 9.8mm (0.3858")
Centerline at 0mm vavle lift 111 deg
Exhaust Valve timing at 1mm (0.0394")
Valve opens at 36 deg BBDC
Vavle closes at 2 deg ATDC
Vavle Centerline 111 deg (WRONG - 107 deg)
Notice that the 1mm timing is off from their spec card. Either the card is wrong on the open/close points or the centerlines are wrong.
Feel free to double check my math. I hope that this helps.
SlowRide:
What does the timing need to be set at for aftermarket cams? I have the 264/272 setup. The car doesn't idle below 1000 RPM. Car seems to be happy idling anywhere from 1000-1200 RPM.
I also had a difficult time chooosing between HKS and WEB. I found a guy to sell me my HKS setup for 480 for the 264/272. I am extremely happy with them.
As far as idle goes they sound cool as hell. For a while I couldn't get my car to idle below 1000 RPM. After a little bit of tuning I have them setup to where they idle perfectly at 800 RPM. As far as low end power loss, nope. My car spun all 4 tires on dry pavement with full tread on 17" tires, all the way through first. Love those cams..
JW :
Found this at carshopinc:
Part # Description Duration @ .050" Gross Lift w/1.7
STOCK Stock Turbo Cam 174 / 165 .366" / .343"
HKS264 HKS 264 187 / 186 .392"/.374"
HKS272 HKS 272 195 / 195 .399"/.379"
546/547 Web Cams 206 / 206 .400"/.385"
Nick 92 TSi AWD:
You don't have to degree your cams, but you will get the best idle and the cams will perform how HKS intended if you do. Most people don't actually, but I think it's worht the extra time.
HKS uses a different billet supplier than web and crower. Their billets are designed specifically for the 4G63. No one to the best of my knowledge has ever had any problem at all with HKS quality control. They idle better than the webs do. The 264/264 combo works best for cars with 16gs. The 246/272 works well for cars with a 20g or larger turbo that are street/strip cars. The 272/272 is really only worth it for cars that are pretty much weekend only. I only say that because it is a little harder to tune for emissions tests with the 272s.
I have a 264 intake/272 exhaust combo. The idle is lumpy, but not bad. It pulls like a mother to redline. You WILL find yourself hitting the rev limiter at first.
I have HKS 264/272. They idle pretty well, you can tell it's not stock, but they don't eight stroke like V8 cam. I attribute this too two things.
1. They probably don't have much overlap (HKS won't release the specs, so I can't be sure). This is good for a turbo car. Since you have pressurized air on the intake side it will push out any remaining exhuast gas in the cylinder much quicker than a NA engine. Too much overlap on a turbo car and you will just be blowing the fresh intake charge out the exhaust ports.
2. HKS makes a lot of four cylinder cams, and have for a while. Crower and web don't and haven't. They have equipment setup for tooling V8 cams that is somewhat jury rigged to do four cylinder cams (at least last I checked). There cams are usually a little bit off index (in relation to the crank). I know one person who indexed a set of webs and found they were 7 degrees off index.
The 264/272 did not make any noticeable difference bellow 5k. Normally power drops off around 6k in most DSMs. With the cams there is no drop off in power, it pulls very hard to redline. You hit the rev limiter very easily.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head, hope it helps
This is from another thread, but here's my thoughts:
The two sets of webcams I have seen installed both had their lobes off center. Going towards cylinder 1 the lobes became increasingly off center to the rocker arms. It wasn't major, just barely. The closer I looked it seems like the billet that they are using is not 4G63 specific. The ramp profiles were a little slower than I like for a hydraulic lash adjusted valve train also.
I run the HKS 264 intake and 272 exhaust combo. I am very happy with it. They have a steeper ramp profile than the webs do.
Don't mistake a lumpy idle for "more power". It probably means there is too much overlap. You want to minimize overlap with a forced induction car. If the exhaust valve is open at the same time as the intake valve you will blow charge air straight through the combustion chamber without burning it. Of course a little bit is good because you will get a less contaminated charge (the last spent charge is pushed out completely by the new intake charge).
Unless HKS measures their cam duration at the same lift as web I wouldn't compare the two numbers. While .50 is usually the lift number used in measuring duration, most cam manufacturers measure theirs at different vavle lifts. Comparing duration numbers at different lift points is like comparing apples to oranges.
About a year ago there was a big discussion about this on my local list. We were trying to figure out true cam duration for the crowers. They measured duration at a much higher lift than a 4G63 will see. Their 26x cams really had around a 190 degree duration, which makes a lot more sense.
If any of those cams (hks, crower, web) really had that much duration at our lift they would NEVER idle, hell the car would barely run.
my .50 cents worth
DSM Storm:
I just installed my 272 I/E cams, they took about half hour to install, they idle unbelievably good, they definatly are not as bad as the 546/547 cams, I just recently moved from the web cams to the HKS setup due to a bad exhaust cam that was measured by my machinist to only have 5 degrees more lift than stock, IMHO web cams are phuqin junk, unfortunatly, my engine only has 290 miles on it so Im not able to beat on it yet, but so far I like the cams, they have better idle characteristics than the web street grind.
Justin:
In terms of performance gains, so far so good. To see a list of my modifications, please check my homepage in my signature. I pretty much have all the supporting mods to be had. I have access to my best friend's dyno at Charlie's Motors here in Brisbane Australia. I am running base fuel pressure of about 45 psi, and 60 on the go, and i alter my fuel setting through my Apex SAFC. I am yet to dyno the car with the cams in, but will do so within the next 10 days.
Real Life driving - Having the street intake 264 HKS cam means that i am able to get decent idle, and not have to worry to much about the police hassling me for undue noise. Even though my full 3" exhaust system doesn't help the noise factor. I find that the car sounds like it has a louder, and lower note of tone. The car idles nicely at 700-800 rpm. The HKS 264 inlet cam has a nice sound to it, the usual "brp brp" sound, but it isn't always constant, i find that the idle sound will change at times, particularly with fans kicking in and idle speed changing. The car feels zippier to 5000rpm, and then it really kicks in at 5000rpm and takes me all the way to 7500rpm very quickly. With the stock cams on a 2G, people will know how slow the revs seem to move in this powerband. With the HKS 272 Exhaust cam, this is not an issue whatsoever. The engine note is notably louder at this rpm also. My turbo use to gives me a lot of lag in 1st and 2nd gear. With the cams installed, I can feel boost coming on stronger, earlier, as the car revs faster than with the stock cams. To view video footage with sound of the cams, please see here;
http://dsm20.topcities.com/cams.htm
Overall I am very happy with my purchase. I would purchase through FFWD Connection again, and I am happy to recommend Darren. This is my first ever review, so if I have left something out, please ask. Also, if you would prefer to ask in private, please don't be afraid to do so. We all know that there are some grumble bums on every forum board =) (I personally find that the people who come down hard on others, are exactly the ones that purchase all the wrong products in my opinion.) I have tried to include everything that i wanted to know when i was purchasing the cams. Safe driving everyone!.
When i start the car up in the morning, it idles at about 1100, then drops back to about 700. This afternoon, driving home to work it idled at about 600-700 in my garage which is something i'm pleased about.
4G63Rydah:
Without getting into too much detail, install some cam gears (I'd recommend HKS) and degree your cams and you'll be fine. It'll idle like a champ
A pair of 264s will be a good all around street set with good idle. If you want to go a little bit wilder with fairly good idle then get 264 intake and 272 exhaust. It'll give you a little bit more performance gain out of it while keeping good idle. But if you don't care about idle (or have an S-AFC or S-AFR so you can try to fix the idle) and you want the most performance then get the 272s. I've been told that these will make power up to 9,000 RPM. Not like you'll be able to shift that high anyways...
There are plenty of people with 272/272 combos running with VPC/GCC and they idle fine. With some people you can barely even tell they have cams at all.
The best advice I can give about cams is, if you've had the head/block resurfaced the DO NOT install aftermarket cams without adjustable cam gears. Resurfacing the head/block throws off the cam alignment and you'll need to degree the cams to zero them out (this is where the adjustable cam gears come in handy). Even if you haven't had your head/block resurfaced it's still a good idea to install adjustable cam gears with your cams. You'll be surprised how well HKS cams idle when everything is in time.
Lift is by no means a distant second. Lift is very important. Also as far as duration is concerned, the duration specs that Webcams and HKS list is a weird ass number. From the look of it, they get this number basing on the exact moment that the lobe lifts the valve even the tiniest amount (even though virtually no air is gonna be flowing through at this point). The standard way of rating cams is the way that Crower and some of the other American manufacturers rate them. That's why people think that the Crower cams are "crap" compared to HKS and Web. It's just that they use the standard of measuring duration.
Another important factor to look into for a cam is the ramp speed (how fast the valve opens). The thing to think about though is that with our cars we don't have a whole lot of choices for cams. You either choose HKS, Webcams, or Crower. We don't have hundreds of choices like most domestic V8s do. Out of our three choices HKS seems to perform the best. I think virtually all of the top guys are running the 272 HKS cams. To top of the great power gains the HKS cams don't go flat as quickly as the Webs.
One thing to think about with the webs, our engines have no problems with flowing more air on the intake side, it's the exhaust side that we get restricted at the most (especially 1Gs). Having a shorter duration on the exhaust side than on the intake side seems like an ass-backwards way to approach this problem.
fourg63:
I love my HKS cams.
I've heard of people failing their emissions with web cams.
I passed emissions with flying colors.
264s in and ex.Idle is a little lumpy, but not to the point of being annoying.
AmericanPsycho1:
i have the HK$ combo in my car
very lumpy idle (but still need to adjust idle a hair higher)
very loud lifter tick (also in desperate need for an oil change)
over all, they do pull strong on the top end, and i have stock heads. they seem very well made
good cams... kinda scary with all the lumpyness and ticking, but when you are driving, it's great.
i have the 264/272 combo, and the idle is really wierd, sometimes its lumpy at like 600something, other times it idles all the way up to 1050something...... but my car is an auto... so thats another wierdness.
as for power gains, i have no clue, im running otherwise basically stock, just exhaust and intake work and it makes 3rd gear wicked as hell at the track, it even helped me get a 13.992, so ya cant go wrong.
19CBoosted:
I also have the HK$ (264,272) setup in my car and I love them. Yes, they are a little bit lumpy, but that's part of the fun of having more aggresive cams on our 4G63's. I must say I have a smooth power band, but as "Nick 92 TSi AWD" said, the rev. limiter also comes faster than before.
jw:
The HKS 264/264 is in for about 3 weeks now and it idles fine at 800-900rpm. It is a little lumpy at times when it drops to ~700rpm.
With the MF1 turbo at 15-16psi, my AWD felt like it's going to lose traction in 2nd gear at around 4.5k-5krpm. It's feels like a ON/OFF switch and bam, it take off.
Man, I just dont know how it's going to feel like above 20psi and seriously, I am scared the drivetrain is not going to hold much longer if it hit so hard.
Blackboost:
I have the HKS 264/272 combo on my car and it idles nicely. Just turn up the idle a little bit and you will be set.
Mark PPG:
I put in a set recently. I was told the idle sucked, and I was pretty nervous. After the install I laughed, its not bad at all. No sound clip to send you but my V8 head friend says it sounds like an outboard boat motor now. I up'ed the idle a bit to ~800rpm and it never stalls. Its lumpy for sure, but nice. The top end pull MORE than makes up for the idle
4WARND:
The cams will make the most power over 4500 RPM. I put
the same cams in my car and picked up .2 tenths and
2 mph ! The car pulls like mad now right to the redline
( 8000 in my car ) Of course results will differ for
every car.<br>
<b>- SOME DSMTALK.COM MEMBERS THAT USE/HAVE USED HKS CAMS -</b><br>
DSM Storm
SlowRide
Justin
fourg63
Nick 92 TSi AWD
AmericanPsycho1
19Cboosted
jw
Blackboost
Mark PPG
4WARND
SlowDSM
Rix
Tex
Endless
2wdsux
bbarton@nashfinch.com
NickV
Strand
ForceFED
<br><TABLE BORDER=0 WIDTH=100%><TH BGCOLOR="#616161"><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FFFFFF"><B>Crower Cams</B></FONT></TH><TR><TD></TD></TR></TABLE><P><b>- A SUMMARY OF CROWER CAMS REVIEWS/POSTS -</b>
<br>amkjak:
Just got my new cams in with the springs and titanium retainers. I also put in badly needed new valve stem seals and new lifters. The car revs up faster now and pulls hard all the way to redline. I really need an E-Prom ECU and Tech's mods to raise my redline cause it hits the rev limiter real fast now at WOT in first and second gear. Still have my Mutt L3 in the box and still need more parts FMIC,Inj,ex mani etc....I got the mild Crower cams similar to the 264's.
The car idles just fine I imagine if you went with the longer duration similar to the HKS 272's idle quality would suffer. I wanted just a mild cam upgrade so the crower's I got suit me just fine,nice idle(not lumpy),good power and a stronger pull at the top end. But even with the cams I got a higher redline would help, so the redline would be in the low 8K range, so you can shift higher up without hitting the rev limiter.The car pulls up to the redline now so much smoother and quicker.I 'm sure that the titanium retaners and new valve springs as well as the UR crank pulley also helped.I would like to get a lightned flywheel as well but I probably can't use the fidansa because it might be a little too light considering the UR crank pulley. I think the cams I got should have come with the car. A very nice upgrade indeed.
amkjak:
I have the Crower Cams in my car and all I can say is wow!!! These cams rock!! The idle is nice,not lumpy plus it pulls hard all the way to redline and fast. As far as Crower goes I'm not sure of what their machines are but I know that they have been making cams for a LONG time unlike Web or HKS mind you I'm not bagging on HKS but I'm pretty sure that Crower took their time in making these for the DSM's.My friend who has been around DSM's since '90 repairing,racing,rebuilding etc. was very impressed with the quality and build as well as the way they worked in my car and even qouted "I'd get these instead of the HKS's and spend the extra money elsewhere". Just my 2 cents
BTW I got the Stage one cams
speedy6963:
the smallest crower cams (64412) have good idle, power 2500-7000
the mid cams (64413) have lopey idle great power 4000-7500rpm ( have these in my car)
the 64414 are rough idle and best power 4500-8500
the crower 64412 are comparable to the HKS264
the crower 64413 are comparable to the HKS272
6bolt2gen:
Just put in some crowers and ooooh man what a gain. gonna take the transfer case off and dyno it but im guessing 40hp
<br><b>- SOME DSMTALK.COM MEMBERS THAT USE/HAVE USED CROWER CAMS -</b><br>
Amkjak
AWD_ENVY
6bolt2gen
forcedperf (crower 414cam)
Questions or comments? Please discuss this article here (http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56157).
<B>The Huge Camshaft Review: DSMtalk.com discussion summary, Web/HKS/Crower</B>
<img src="http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/images/articles/cams/cams.jpg" align="left" border="0">This was compiled from various threads in the "parts talk" and "parts reviews" forums. This article is intended to serve as a "quick link" to information about cam upgrades, in the words of your fellow DSMtalk.com members. Included are the usernames of those who posted comments, as well as a summary of some members who run the respective cams in their DSM's. For more information, feel free to post relevent comments to the thread linked at the end of this article, send a PM or email to a fellow DSMtalk.com member listed below (please be polite if you contact them, since you are the one asking for info), or speak to your preferred <a href="http://www.dsmtalk.com/links.php?op=viewlink&cid=3" target="_blank">DSM parts vendor</a>.
First, here is a brief summary of the function of camshafts and why you may want to consider upgrading them. Camshafts rotate and use cams (or lobes) to push against the engine’s intake valves to allow the air/fuel mixture into the combustion chambers, and also push against the engine’s exhaust valves to allow exhaust gases to exit the combustion chambers. Valve springs return the valves to their resting position, until the valves are once again pushed by the cams.
The rotating camshaft times the opening and closing of the valves in perfect concert with the pistons, safely returning the valves back to their closed positions at the end of the piston’s intake and combustion strokes.
<img src="http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/images/articles/cams/camshaftanimation.gif" align="right">The animation to the right gives an illustration of how cams work. The configuration shown is not that of a DSM, but the functionalilty of how the cams (or lobes) act on the valves is basically the same.
From the factory, an engine’s camshaft(s) are manufactured such that they provide a compromise between horsepower and drivability/comfort. However, performance oriented camshafts are available that maximize air/fuel and exhaust flows to provide additional horsepower, at certain engine speeds. To the performance enthusiast, having more horsepower where you want it is a good thing, but the “grind” (shape and angle of the cams or lobs) that maximizes horsepower where an enthusiast wants it, typically has a detrimental effect on engine performance at other engine speeds. An exaggerated example of this detrimental effect would be the sputtering and shaking of a top fuel dragster at idle. Finding the right camshaft for your DSM ultimately depends on the car’s use (will it have daily driver duties? will it be drag only? autocross only?).
An often asked question is "When do I need cams for my dsm?" The answer is certainly not cut in stone. Some DSM verterans advise that you wait until you are in the low 12s or 11s in the quarter mile. Others advise the upgrade much earlier. It depends on your other modifications (most importantly your turbo) and other factors, such as the elevation of the track you run at.
If the above brief summary leaves you with questions, you may want to take a look at this article (http://www.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm) which goes into depth.
The following reference was compiled by DSMtalk.com Staff Member 99mmcgsx (http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=1687), and provides a summary of some of the discussions that have taken place in our forums regarding popular upgrades for DSMs from HKS, Crower, and Web.
<br><TABLE BORDER=0 WIDTH=100%><TH BGCOLOR="#616161"><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FFFFFF"><B>Web Cams</B></FONT></TH><TR><TD></TD></TR></TABLE><P><b>- A SUMMARY OF WEB CAMS REVIEWS/POSTS -</b><br>
rollhard.com:
one word. GREAT
these cams give great bang for the buck increase in HP. our test car ran 14.4 without the cams. with the cams being the only modifications, we easily hit 13.9 with our trap speed increasing from 96-98mph. They are relatively easy to install and for about $500, that is a good investment for about 35-40hp gain. any questions or comments, feel free to email me.
oh yeah, you can definately hear the cams in the car. once you start your car after installing the cams, you hear it. the idle is cam idle = ) it will probably vary with your car. my idle sucked to begin with so after the cams were put it, i just played with the afc to adjust it.
Moto'freak:
I have the webcams 546/547 grind with a vpc and that alone will not work unless you have a AFC (?) I have a S-AFR and that solved the low vacuum/rich problems created from lumpy cams.
Endless:
The 546/547 webs are Intake: .400 lift and 272 degrees of duration and the exhaust side is .385 lift and 256 degrees of duration.
Junior:
I also have Webs W/ a vpc. I used a AFC to fix the crappy idle. I dont think you can fix teh idle with the ggc. The cams ROCK! great impact in the cars performance.
BigRedAWD:
When I first put the cams on my car I did not have a AFC, back then everything seemed ok. I love the fact that the cams give you a nice little kick at about 4K.
JW:
Found this at carshopinc:
Part # Description Duration @ .050" Gross Lift w/1.7
STOCK Stock Turbo Cam 174 / 165 .366" / .343"
HKS264 HKS 264 187 / 186 .392"/.374"
HKS272 HKS 272 195 / 195 .399"/.379"
546/547 Web Cams 206 / 206 .400"/.385"
ProjectGSX:
I am having issues with the Webs, period. I don't think it has anything to do with the turbo+cam combination. I can't tell if the Web's are supposed to have this much overlap, or if their quality control is just off.
If I had it to do over again, I would certainly not recommend the Web Cams. Brand new, the HKS run an extra $150. The Crower's might be a good alternative also, since they are about the same price as the Web's and I have yet to hear anything bad about them.
After playing with the BISS and advancing base timing (I have a 1G CAS) I was able to get the idle more consistent. It is still quite lumpy. Because of the jerky idle, the car shakes a lot. It is fine normally, but if you happen to have a headache or an upset stomach, it really makes the car an unhappy place to be.
Webcams did have some wear issues because they got a bad batch of blanks, but they are being replaced under warranty by the company who sold them to you.
4G63Rydah:
Webcams do NOT have higher lift. HKS has higher lift. Webcams are .400" (10.16mm) for intake and .385" (9.78mm) for exhaust. HKS are 10.3mm (.405") for intake and 9.8mm (.386") for exhaust.
BoostLE:
i failed my smog check with the webcams, but i think anycar with aggresive cams set to stock idle speed will fail.
Nick 92 TSi AWD:
Webcams use blank billets that are not really designed specifically for the 4G63. Actually they're not even really designed for a roller rocker arm valve train from what I've been told. If you look at a picture of a car with webcams you'll notice that the lobes are not centered. This contributes to the much worse idle you get with them. Their billets also are not hardened consistantly and many people have had problems with theirs going flat over time.
Webcams changed suppliers for their billets a little while back. They were not good quality. Many peoples cam lobes wore flat. They changed again and haven't had problems now. Take off your valve cover and inspect the cam lobes. If there is abnormal wear call up webcams, they warrantied the bad ones as far as I know.
19CBoosted:
As for the Webcams setup I just know what I have read on the Digest Archives. Some people have gone thru up to 3 sets since they bought them. Seems like there is some problem centered specifically on the lobes of the cams. One guy even lost some valve springs, valves, and valve retainers because of cam failures. All of which were replaced courtesy of Webcams. But, the thing is that this happened using the street setup, I don't want to imagine what could happen with the race setup. If that's the case, I hope they come out with a better design soon (if they haven't done it already). BTW, on Road Race Engineering they have a sound clip about the sound of the Webcams. They sound pretty cool!!
HighPsiAWD:
Almost all aftermarket cams for DSM's will cause a lopey idle, and that's because of the lobe center seperation.
BTW, the bad Web Cams problem has been gone for YEARS now. I've had my Webs for about a year and a half now with NO signs of wear and NO problems.
seegs:
i have webcams installed with my buschur block and 95 pistons.
the idle is very lumpy but cool. it sounds so awesome with the thermal exhaust. my car does vibrate a bit more but its not too bad. idle jumps around 750-1000 rpm. not bad at all. i love them.
as far as power goes, you'll be amazed.
DSM Storm:
In my honest experience, web cams are complete pieces of shit, my recently purchased 546/547 grind was a bad batch when I was assured directly from web that I would have no issues with them, I had a problem with a cylinder head I was building, when my machinist took it to his shop, he measured the stock cams vs. the web cams, the web cams only had 5 more thousanths lift than the stock exhaust cam, the exhaust cam from web was completely off grind, and did not match the specs they gave me, the intake cam however was fine, although my head problem had nothing to do with the cams, it was just luck on my part that my machinist caught that in advance, I got rid of those junk cams and bought a set of hks 272 I/E cams, idle is cherry, it idles and sounds awsome, its definatly choppy but im used to it from hangin out with V-8's with aggressive cams, so it was nothing new to me.
RDRKT:
Just FYI I don’t want to be waving the web cam banner. I want nothing more than to switch over my webs to a pair of HKS 272s when funds permit. Better idle and more power what could be better?
greenstreak:
I believe that it was claimed to have been a bad batch of cams and not all Web Street grinds that were having this problem. Try searching the archives at http://www.dsm.org for tons of info on this as it flooded the digest for more than a week.
ecoli:
The web cams change your idle quite a bit. My car idles much lumpier than my frends cars who have HKS and Crower cams.
It idles lumpy but its really no problem. My friends with the tamer sounding idling cams are jealous.
I don't know if I noticed a peak HP increase, but the increase in the normal HP over about 5800RPMs is very noticable. The car pulls very hard to revlimiter with the cams. I often hit revlimiter even in higher gears, if I am not paying attention, because I don't feel any dropoff in power at all, unlike with stock cams. <br>
<b>- SOME DSMTALK.COM MEMBERS THAT USE/HAVE USED WEB CAMS -</b><br>
rollhard.com
Junior
BigRedAWD
ProjectGSX
talonman69
BoostLE
HighPsiAWD
Seegs
RDRKT
firepower
ecoli
Felix
slow93
Fathouse
dre99gsx
<br><TABLE BORDER=0 WIDTH=100%><TH BGCOLOR="#616161"><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FFFFFF"><B>HKS Cams</B></FONT></TH><TR><TD></TD></TR></TABLE><P><b>- A SUMMARY OF HKS CAMS REVIEWS/POSTS -</b><br>
Sorry, the comments are not all specified as 264/264; 264/272; or 272/272<br>
Endless:
The HKS cam will work with the VPC fine but they are 264 degree cams. the idle sounds damn near stock once they are installed but they have been dynoed at a 30 plus hp gain to the wheels. (Alamo Autosports Arlington TX) on a smal 16G. HKS does offer a 272 degree cam and some people opt to use it as the with a 264 degree cam instead of both being 264's
DiamondsR4EVR:
I just e-mailed Doug's Dyno Power. …. he said the 264/273 combination idles "much worse" than the 264/264. So I'm going for the 264/264. Just though I'd spread the word
DSM Storm:
Ok, got my HKS 272 exhaust cam today, I dont read japanease so I have very little information to offer, but here are the specs on these cams.
idle is cherry, it idles and sounds awsome, its definatly choppy but im used to it from hangin out with V-8's with aggressive cams, so it was nothing new to me.
The 272's are really choppy, and they require alot of fuel to stay running at idle and with that in mind, the fumes sometimes get a bit aggravating but they do sound madman.
Intake cam opens 6 degrees BTDC
Intake cam closes 32 degrees ABDC
Exhaust Cam opens 36 degrees BBDC
Exhaust cam closes 2 degrees ATDC
This gives them a duration or 218 on both intake and exhaust side, I cannot tell you at what lift that Is at, I do not read japanease...sorry, this is the best I can offer.
anoldsman:
I have the spec cards for the 264 and 272 cams in english. They are as follows:
264 Intake
Max Valve Lift - 10.3mm (0.4055")
Centerline at 0mm vavle lift 105 deg
Intake Valve timing at 1mm (0.0394")
Valve opens at 2 deg BTDC
Valve closes at 28 deg ABDC
Valve Centerline 105 deg (WRONG - 103 deg)
264 Exhaust
Max Valve Lift - 9.8mm (0.3858")
Centerline at 0mm vavle lift 117 deg
Exhaust Valve timing at 1mm (0.0394")
Valve opens at 42 deg BBDC
Valve closes at -12 deg ATDC
Valve Centerline 117 deg (CORRECT)
272 Intake
Max Valve Lift - 10.3mm (0.4055")
Centerline at 0mm vavle lift 105 deg
Intake Valve timing at 1mm (0.0394")
Valve opens at 6 deg BTDC
Valve closes at 32 deg ABDC
Valve Centerline 105 deg (WRONG - 103 deg)
272 Exhaust
Max Valve Lift - 9.8mm (0.3858")
Centerline at 0mm vavle lift 111 deg
Exhaust Valve timing at 1mm (0.0394")
Valve opens at 36 deg BBDC
Vavle closes at 2 deg ATDC
Vavle Centerline 111 deg (WRONG - 107 deg)
Notice that the 1mm timing is off from their spec card. Either the card is wrong on the open/close points or the centerlines are wrong.
Feel free to double check my math. I hope that this helps.
SlowRide:
What does the timing need to be set at for aftermarket cams? I have the 264/272 setup. The car doesn't idle below 1000 RPM. Car seems to be happy idling anywhere from 1000-1200 RPM.
I also had a difficult time chooosing between HKS and WEB. I found a guy to sell me my HKS setup for 480 for the 264/272. I am extremely happy with them.
As far as idle goes they sound cool as hell. For a while I couldn't get my car to idle below 1000 RPM. After a little bit of tuning I have them setup to where they idle perfectly at 800 RPM. As far as low end power loss, nope. My car spun all 4 tires on dry pavement with full tread on 17" tires, all the way through first. Love those cams..
JW :
Found this at carshopinc:
Part # Description Duration @ .050" Gross Lift w/1.7
STOCK Stock Turbo Cam 174 / 165 .366" / .343"
HKS264 HKS 264 187 / 186 .392"/.374"
HKS272 HKS 272 195 / 195 .399"/.379"
546/547 Web Cams 206 / 206 .400"/.385"
Nick 92 TSi AWD:
You don't have to degree your cams, but you will get the best idle and the cams will perform how HKS intended if you do. Most people don't actually, but I think it's worht the extra time.
HKS uses a different billet supplier than web and crower. Their billets are designed specifically for the 4G63. No one to the best of my knowledge has ever had any problem at all with HKS quality control. They idle better than the webs do. The 264/264 combo works best for cars with 16gs. The 246/272 works well for cars with a 20g or larger turbo that are street/strip cars. The 272/272 is really only worth it for cars that are pretty much weekend only. I only say that because it is a little harder to tune for emissions tests with the 272s.
I have a 264 intake/272 exhaust combo. The idle is lumpy, but not bad. It pulls like a mother to redline. You WILL find yourself hitting the rev limiter at first.
I have HKS 264/272. They idle pretty well, you can tell it's not stock, but they don't eight stroke like V8 cam. I attribute this too two things.
1. They probably don't have much overlap (HKS won't release the specs, so I can't be sure). This is good for a turbo car. Since you have pressurized air on the intake side it will push out any remaining exhuast gas in the cylinder much quicker than a NA engine. Too much overlap on a turbo car and you will just be blowing the fresh intake charge out the exhaust ports.
2. HKS makes a lot of four cylinder cams, and have for a while. Crower and web don't and haven't. They have equipment setup for tooling V8 cams that is somewhat jury rigged to do four cylinder cams (at least last I checked). There cams are usually a little bit off index (in relation to the crank). I know one person who indexed a set of webs and found they were 7 degrees off index.
The 264/272 did not make any noticeable difference bellow 5k. Normally power drops off around 6k in most DSMs. With the cams there is no drop off in power, it pulls very hard to redline. You hit the rev limiter very easily.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head, hope it helps
This is from another thread, but here's my thoughts:
The two sets of webcams I have seen installed both had their lobes off center. Going towards cylinder 1 the lobes became increasingly off center to the rocker arms. It wasn't major, just barely. The closer I looked it seems like the billet that they are using is not 4G63 specific. The ramp profiles were a little slower than I like for a hydraulic lash adjusted valve train also.
I run the HKS 264 intake and 272 exhaust combo. I am very happy with it. They have a steeper ramp profile than the webs do.
Don't mistake a lumpy idle for "more power". It probably means there is too much overlap. You want to minimize overlap with a forced induction car. If the exhaust valve is open at the same time as the intake valve you will blow charge air straight through the combustion chamber without burning it. Of course a little bit is good because you will get a less contaminated charge (the last spent charge is pushed out completely by the new intake charge).
Unless HKS measures their cam duration at the same lift as web I wouldn't compare the two numbers. While .50 is usually the lift number used in measuring duration, most cam manufacturers measure theirs at different vavle lifts. Comparing duration numbers at different lift points is like comparing apples to oranges.
About a year ago there was a big discussion about this on my local list. We were trying to figure out true cam duration for the crowers. They measured duration at a much higher lift than a 4G63 will see. Their 26x cams really had around a 190 degree duration, which makes a lot more sense.
If any of those cams (hks, crower, web) really had that much duration at our lift they would NEVER idle, hell the car would barely run.
my .50 cents worth
DSM Storm:
I just installed my 272 I/E cams, they took about half hour to install, they idle unbelievably good, they definatly are not as bad as the 546/547 cams, I just recently moved from the web cams to the HKS setup due to a bad exhaust cam that was measured by my machinist to only have 5 degrees more lift than stock, IMHO web cams are phuqin junk, unfortunatly, my engine only has 290 miles on it so Im not able to beat on it yet, but so far I like the cams, they have better idle characteristics than the web street grind.
Justin:
In terms of performance gains, so far so good. To see a list of my modifications, please check my homepage in my signature. I pretty much have all the supporting mods to be had. I have access to my best friend's dyno at Charlie's Motors here in Brisbane Australia. I am running base fuel pressure of about 45 psi, and 60 on the go, and i alter my fuel setting through my Apex SAFC. I am yet to dyno the car with the cams in, but will do so within the next 10 days.
Real Life driving - Having the street intake 264 HKS cam means that i am able to get decent idle, and not have to worry to much about the police hassling me for undue noise. Even though my full 3" exhaust system doesn't help the noise factor. I find that the car sounds like it has a louder, and lower note of tone. The car idles nicely at 700-800 rpm. The HKS 264 inlet cam has a nice sound to it, the usual "brp brp" sound, but it isn't always constant, i find that the idle sound will change at times, particularly with fans kicking in and idle speed changing. The car feels zippier to 5000rpm, and then it really kicks in at 5000rpm and takes me all the way to 7500rpm very quickly. With the stock cams on a 2G, people will know how slow the revs seem to move in this powerband. With the HKS 272 Exhaust cam, this is not an issue whatsoever. The engine note is notably louder at this rpm also. My turbo use to gives me a lot of lag in 1st and 2nd gear. With the cams installed, I can feel boost coming on stronger, earlier, as the car revs faster than with the stock cams. To view video footage with sound of the cams, please see here;
http://dsm20.topcities.com/cams.htm
Overall I am very happy with my purchase. I would purchase through FFWD Connection again, and I am happy to recommend Darren. This is my first ever review, so if I have left something out, please ask. Also, if you would prefer to ask in private, please don't be afraid to do so. We all know that there are some grumble bums on every forum board =) (I personally find that the people who come down hard on others, are exactly the ones that purchase all the wrong products in my opinion.) I have tried to include everything that i wanted to know when i was purchasing the cams. Safe driving everyone!.
When i start the car up in the morning, it idles at about 1100, then drops back to about 700. This afternoon, driving home to work it idled at about 600-700 in my garage which is something i'm pleased about.
4G63Rydah:
Without getting into too much detail, install some cam gears (I'd recommend HKS) and degree your cams and you'll be fine. It'll idle like a champ
A pair of 264s will be a good all around street set with good idle. If you want to go a little bit wilder with fairly good idle then get 264 intake and 272 exhaust. It'll give you a little bit more performance gain out of it while keeping good idle. But if you don't care about idle (or have an S-AFC or S-AFR so you can try to fix the idle) and you want the most performance then get the 272s. I've been told that these will make power up to 9,000 RPM. Not like you'll be able to shift that high anyways...
There are plenty of people with 272/272 combos running with VPC/GCC and they idle fine. With some people you can barely even tell they have cams at all.
The best advice I can give about cams is, if you've had the head/block resurfaced the DO NOT install aftermarket cams without adjustable cam gears. Resurfacing the head/block throws off the cam alignment and you'll need to degree the cams to zero them out (this is where the adjustable cam gears come in handy). Even if you haven't had your head/block resurfaced it's still a good idea to install adjustable cam gears with your cams. You'll be surprised how well HKS cams idle when everything is in time.
Lift is by no means a distant second. Lift is very important. Also as far as duration is concerned, the duration specs that Webcams and HKS list is a weird ass number. From the look of it, they get this number basing on the exact moment that the lobe lifts the valve even the tiniest amount (even though virtually no air is gonna be flowing through at this point). The standard way of rating cams is the way that Crower and some of the other American manufacturers rate them. That's why people think that the Crower cams are "crap" compared to HKS and Web. It's just that they use the standard of measuring duration.
Another important factor to look into for a cam is the ramp speed (how fast the valve opens). The thing to think about though is that with our cars we don't have a whole lot of choices for cams. You either choose HKS, Webcams, or Crower. We don't have hundreds of choices like most domestic V8s do. Out of our three choices HKS seems to perform the best. I think virtually all of the top guys are running the 272 HKS cams. To top of the great power gains the HKS cams don't go flat as quickly as the Webs.
One thing to think about with the webs, our engines have no problems with flowing more air on the intake side, it's the exhaust side that we get restricted at the most (especially 1Gs). Having a shorter duration on the exhaust side than on the intake side seems like an ass-backwards way to approach this problem.
fourg63:
I love my HKS cams.
I've heard of people failing their emissions with web cams.
I passed emissions with flying colors.
264s in and ex.Idle is a little lumpy, but not to the point of being annoying.
AmericanPsycho1:
i have the HK$ combo in my car
very lumpy idle (but still need to adjust idle a hair higher)
very loud lifter tick (also in desperate need for an oil change)
over all, they do pull strong on the top end, and i have stock heads. they seem very well made
good cams... kinda scary with all the lumpyness and ticking, but when you are driving, it's great.
i have the 264/272 combo, and the idle is really wierd, sometimes its lumpy at like 600something, other times it idles all the way up to 1050something...... but my car is an auto... so thats another wierdness.
as for power gains, i have no clue, im running otherwise basically stock, just exhaust and intake work and it makes 3rd gear wicked as hell at the track, it even helped me get a 13.992, so ya cant go wrong.
19CBoosted:
I also have the HK$ (264,272) setup in my car and I love them. Yes, they are a little bit lumpy, but that's part of the fun of having more aggresive cams on our 4G63's. I must say I have a smooth power band, but as "Nick 92 TSi AWD" said, the rev. limiter also comes faster than before.
jw:
The HKS 264/264 is in for about 3 weeks now and it idles fine at 800-900rpm. It is a little lumpy at times when it drops to ~700rpm.
With the MF1 turbo at 15-16psi, my AWD felt like it's going to lose traction in 2nd gear at around 4.5k-5krpm. It's feels like a ON/OFF switch and bam, it take off.
Man, I just dont know how it's going to feel like above 20psi and seriously, I am scared the drivetrain is not going to hold much longer if it hit so hard.
Blackboost:
I have the HKS 264/272 combo on my car and it idles nicely. Just turn up the idle a little bit and you will be set.
Mark PPG:
I put in a set recently. I was told the idle sucked, and I was pretty nervous. After the install I laughed, its not bad at all. No sound clip to send you but my V8 head friend says it sounds like an outboard boat motor now. I up'ed the idle a bit to ~800rpm and it never stalls. Its lumpy for sure, but nice. The top end pull MORE than makes up for the idle
4WARND:
The cams will make the most power over 4500 RPM. I put
the same cams in my car and picked up .2 tenths and
2 mph ! The car pulls like mad now right to the redline
( 8000 in my car ) Of course results will differ for
every car.<br>
<b>- SOME DSMTALK.COM MEMBERS THAT USE/HAVE USED HKS CAMS -</b><br>
DSM Storm
SlowRide
Justin
fourg63
Nick 92 TSi AWD
AmericanPsycho1
19Cboosted
jw
Blackboost
Mark PPG
4WARND
SlowDSM
Rix
Tex
Endless
2wdsux
bbarton@nashfinch.com
NickV
Strand
ForceFED
<br><TABLE BORDER=0 WIDTH=100%><TH BGCOLOR="#616161"><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FFFFFF"><B>Crower Cams</B></FONT></TH><TR><TD></TD></TR></TABLE><P><b>- A SUMMARY OF CROWER CAMS REVIEWS/POSTS -</b>
<br>amkjak:
Just got my new cams in with the springs and titanium retainers. I also put in badly needed new valve stem seals and new lifters. The car revs up faster now and pulls hard all the way to redline. I really need an E-Prom ECU and Tech's mods to raise my redline cause it hits the rev limiter real fast now at WOT in first and second gear. Still have my Mutt L3 in the box and still need more parts FMIC,Inj,ex mani etc....I got the mild Crower cams similar to the 264's.
The car idles just fine I imagine if you went with the longer duration similar to the HKS 272's idle quality would suffer. I wanted just a mild cam upgrade so the crower's I got suit me just fine,nice idle(not lumpy),good power and a stronger pull at the top end. But even with the cams I got a higher redline would help, so the redline would be in the low 8K range, so you can shift higher up without hitting the rev limiter.The car pulls up to the redline now so much smoother and quicker.I 'm sure that the titanium retaners and new valve springs as well as the UR crank pulley also helped.I would like to get a lightned flywheel as well but I probably can't use the fidansa because it might be a little too light considering the UR crank pulley. I think the cams I got should have come with the car. A very nice upgrade indeed.
amkjak:
I have the Crower Cams in my car and all I can say is wow!!! These cams rock!! The idle is nice,not lumpy plus it pulls hard all the way to redline and fast. As far as Crower goes I'm not sure of what their machines are but I know that they have been making cams for a LONG time unlike Web or HKS mind you I'm not bagging on HKS but I'm pretty sure that Crower took their time in making these for the DSM's.My friend who has been around DSM's since '90 repairing,racing,rebuilding etc. was very impressed with the quality and build as well as the way they worked in my car and even qouted "I'd get these instead of the HKS's and spend the extra money elsewhere". Just my 2 cents
BTW I got the Stage one cams
speedy6963:
the smallest crower cams (64412) have good idle, power 2500-7000
the mid cams (64413) have lopey idle great power 4000-7500rpm ( have these in my car)
the 64414 are rough idle and best power 4500-8500
the crower 64412 are comparable to the HKS264
the crower 64413 are comparable to the HKS272
6bolt2gen:
Just put in some crowers and ooooh man what a gain. gonna take the transfer case off and dyno it but im guessing 40hp
<br><b>- SOME DSMTALK.COM MEMBERS THAT USE/HAVE USED CROWER CAMS -</b><br>
Amkjak
AWD_ENVY
6bolt2gen
forcedperf (crower 414cam)
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