Locating the short

[Midnite Stalker]

I used the search and used one of the methods to locate a
short. I disconnected the neg. cable on the battery, connected
the test light and the light came on. According to what was said
the probe is not to come on. So I proceeded to pull each fuse
one by one, til I reached the last one it which went out.
That fuse was the one that goes to the headlight retractors
and seatbelts. Now, do these circuits have constant draw,
cause the headlight retactors go up and down with the ignition
off and the passengers side seatbelt goes on when the door
is open whenj the ignition off. I need some help cause I'm
on my 9th alternator. I took it to a mechanic who added a
additional hotwire and ground(4alts. ago). Symptoms are spikes
in the elec system til it starts to die. These alts. are from different
places.I'm really fustrated cause the car left me stranded in
N.C somewhere at 2 o clock in the morning going home to Philly
from Nopi... Anybody out there with this similiar problem?:rolleyes: :mad:

[alanseijas]

"Now, do these circuits have constant draw, cause the headlight retactors go up and down with the ignition off and the passengers side seatbelt goes on when the door is open whenj the ignition off."

They should not have a constant DRAW, but they are hooked to constant power. You did a great job searching, and using the test light BTW. Have you checked your owner's manual to see every component that this fuse is responsible for? You must eliminate each by unplugging them ONE BY ONE to see if the test light goes out (or really dim). Start with the seat belt motor.

Did you say NINE alternators?!

[Midnite Stalker]

Thank you for responding.
I pulled each one by one, with the test light connected between
neg. post & the neg. cable. Finally the very last one I pulled made
the test light go out. This fuse has the headlight with 2 arrows
and the seatbelts pics on the fuse box cover.
With the fuse back on, I proceeded to disconnect the seatbelt
connectors then the headlight retractors and still the test light
remained on.
:confused:
I have the slightest idea where to go from there.
Oh yea, 9 alternators within a 3 year period.
Thanks again for responding ...........

[Midnite Stalker]

OH, I checked the battery voltage earlier today and(with the car off) it checked at 13.6 and then started the car which read 14.6 constant....

[alanseijas]

You must look in the owner's manual, and see what other components that fuse is responsible for. They will not ALL be listed on the fuse box cover.

[Midnite Stalker]

I looked at the owners manual and the repair manual
and didn't find any wiring diagrams or specs on what that
fuse feeds power to.
Although the repair manual did say there shouldn't be
any current with the key off at the fuses..........

[alanseijas]

Really? I've been in the auto electric business for 13 years, and have always been able to look at the owner's manual to find out what the fuses are fusing for every car I worked on. Don't look for a wiring diagram in there, but look in the index for fuses; and there should be a chart for fuse listings. If you cannot find what the fuses fuse, you cannot fix or find the problem. The only way to find a draw is to eliminate the components on the fuse that shows a draw ONE BY ONE. What number fuse is it, where is it, and what is it's rating? I will try to find out what it does for you if you can't.

[Midnite Stalker]

I did found it earlier. Its in the owners manual on page 127,# 4 fuse, 10a. Its the headlight pop up switch & automatic seatbelts.

[alanseijas]

The only thing you can do now is pull the fuse block out, look behind it, and see how many wires comes from the cold side of the fuse. What this means is: there are 2 sides to every fuse. The hot side, and the cold side. The hot side provides the power, and the cold side leads to the components that the fuse is responsible for protecting. Multiple wires should come from the cold side, and you must cut each 1 by 1 to see if the test light goes out while it is set up as you described earlier. Re-attach each one if the light does not go out, and move on to the next. When you find the one that makes the light go out, leave it cut; and try everything in the car to see what isn't working anymore. Hopefully there isn't a distribution block leading to several things, and you will be able to find one culprit.
Good luck. It is hard to help more without actually being there.

[Midnite Stalker]

Thanks, I will do exactly what you said this weekend..
Yesterday I hooked up a voltmeter to the battery after
a 8 hour day at work, without starting the car.
1 The bat read 13.6, a mechanic told me that the bat was
overloaded, and was unusaul, he recomended to swap batteries,
for a while. This battery is not even a year old, its the optima series with the yellow top.
2 When I started the car it read just over 15v. Also I put the volt
meter on the neg. post(with the car on) and the alternator
case. The voltmeter read 0.03 and lower. The mechanic told me
the ground was good.
3 Do you think this short is enough to make me go through 9
alts., 4 in one day. Another thing I can't get access to a wiring
diagram for the connector wiring on the alt. Where do they go
and do you think this might also be a suspect?
4 Again, I really appreciate the time you take to help me out.:)

[alanseijas]

1. Optima Yellow Top batteries are dry cells. It is not uncommon for them to hold at 13 volts. My competition truck has Hawkers, and they rest around there too.
2. 15v is much too high. Running that high risks burning out many components including every light bulb in the car. The ground does sound like it's good.
3. 9 alts, and 4 in 1 day is ridiculous. That MUST be a record or something. I don't have access to the wiring diagram for your car's alt, but I will call my friend who has All-Data. This computer program has everything for every car. MEANWHILE, do some homework yourself----- I recommend you find out if you have a remote voltage regulator. I have a 2g, and it is internal to the alt. The All-Data will tell me about your 1g, but it is Saturday, and I cannot get in touch with my buddy. If you do, this sounds like the culprit.
Lastly, DO NOT DRIVE AROUND WITH 15 VOLTS. YOU WILL EVENTUALLY FRY LOT'S OF IMPORTANT THINGS.
Talk to ya' later.

[Midnite Stalker]

I m glad the battery is still in good condition then.
At times when the alt. is telling me that its about to go out.
The instrument panel gets extremely bright, the o2 gauge
starts reading richer. One day I had the logger on the car
when the alt started to give and it read 16-17v for several
minutes. Then the car will slowly die. The alt. is internally
regulated and there is a connector with two wires leading
up to it. These wires are sometimes so crispy you just barely
touch em and they will crack right in 2.
I'm going right now to do what you said in your last thread.
................................THANKS

[Midnite Stalker]

After 2 hours of trying to get eay access to the main fuses
box ,I found the main connector to make the test light go out
at the battery! Its the wire that powers the pop-up mechanism
cause everthing else works just fine. Now I'm going to follow
that one wire too see if there is any point where it might ground.
Or is there another way?....................Thanks Man..:D

[Midnite Stalker]

Maaaan, I'm stuck like chuck!
The white wire with the green strip and red spots, doesn't
continue where I can see it or follow it. The wires at the pop-up
mech. has different colored wires,not helping me at all.
What now?:confused:

[alanseijas]

The wire will not ground out. You have a DRAW, not a short. A short BLOWS fuses, a draw pulls current from the battery when the vehicle is at rest. You are testing for a draw, and you're on the right track. Tell me, by pop-up mechanism, do you mean the headlights? I assume you do. Do they still work with the wire cut? If not, I have a way to help you. Leave the wire cut, and test EVERYTHING in the car. Let me know.

[alanseijas]

Oh yeah, by the way, hate to tell you, ummm- You have two separate problems. We are searching for the fix that will cure your draw. I highly doubt that the removal of the draw on the battery will help your repeated alternater failure. 15 volts is way too high for your car, and with an internal voltage regulator; it sounds like you've gone through another one. We'll work on it later.

[Midnite Stalker]

I tested everything and everything looks o.k
I mean that everything works, except for the headlight
retractors. I turn on the headlight switch and the lights
come on but the stay down. What should I do now?

[alanseijas]

How many wires lead to the popup motors, and what colors are they? Are they the same colors for both motors? Sorry it takes me so long to get back, I'm actually at work. I've still got an amp and 4 speaks to finish.....

[Midnite Stalker]

I reconnected the wire that feeds power to the
pop-up mechanism. There's 5 or 6 wires that are right at the
connectors of the motors. I don't know if they are the same
colors. I know for sure that the wire that comes out of the
fuse box is a different than the wires at the connectors.
Man , this really sucks, the wires, the wires.
I checked (about a foot and a halfs worth)the wires that goes to the connector on the altewrnator, did some cuttin and retaping
,and started the car checking the volts which read a steady
14.3-5, even wit the lights on.

[alanseijas]

"I checked (about a foot and a halfs worth)the wires that goes to the connector on the altewrnator, did some cuttin and retaping
,and started the car checking the volts which read a steady
14.3-5, even with the lights on."

Make sure you solder all of your splices.
14.5 is an acceptable voltage reading, but it's on the high side. Keep an eye on this with a volt meter inside the car.

This is very hard without having the car right in front of me, but here's what I would do:
Let's examine the facts first. We know there is a draw, and we know what is causing the draw. There are, however, 2 headlight motors that use the same power source. We must eliminate each motor 1 at a time, and look again for the draw.
Reconnect to wire you found that you cut that eliminated the draw, hook up the testlight bat neg to test light, test light to neg cable - like you did earlier. The draw should be present. Disconnect each headlight motor separately, looking for the test light to go dim. If the first one you unplugged does not cure the draw, plug it back in; and do the other.
If the motors don't unplug, you must find out which of those wires is responsible for turning the motor on to raise the light. With the battery connected in a normal fashion, and the wire you cut connected, turn on the lights. This should raise the light. Poke around with your computer safe test light to see what each wire is doing. Is it ground, is it hot, or does it make the test light act funny (ie resisted voltage). Now turn the lights off, and test again. What are the changes? Is one wire getting positive power when the light switch is on? Are 2 wires changing? Write the colors and the polarities down, and do the last test. Poke the wires that changed, and have a friend work the light switch, so you can watch the changes during the motor's operation.
Let me know what the changes are, and we'll go from there.
Also, do the 6 wires also work the headLIGHTS too?

[alanseijas]

"One day I had the logger on the car
when the alt started to give and it read 16-17v for several
minutes. Then the car will slowly die. The alt. is internally
regulated and there is a connector with two wires leading
up to it. These wires are sometimes so crispy you just barely
touch em and they will crack right in 2."

By the way, WOW !! You're killin' me on this one. NINE aternaters, FOUR in one day? Holy crap! Where are you gettin' these things? -Walmart? You got me on that one. It seems like it has to be the car's fault, but....... I can't come stop thinking about WTF could be up with that! Maybe my buddy will know have a clue. The one with the All-Data. I'll ask him on Monday.

[Midnite Stalker]

Wow, thanks for the info, however man tired of this
freakin problem. I worked on the car on Saturday for
several hours. And the alt I put on was the spare, luckily
I had stripped a car like mines and took the alt.
So I got another rebuilt and put that on, again, I
decided to have the other one as the spare.
I turned on the car, turned on all the accesories and the
voltage reading would go the down to 12.9 gradually and
as I turned off the accs. the volt. would slowly go back to
high 13s to low 14s. Now it just reads 13.6 with the lights on
and the radio. I tried disconnecting the motors(cables)
and I did, reconnected the battery and using the test light
probed all the wires as my friend pressed and depressed
pop-up mechanism. All the probe woyld do is light up as the
motor went up and went down then turn back off.
I did this on both sides. My limited electrical knowlegde,
and do mean LIMITED, elec. knowledge has been exhausted.
How far are you from Philly? If its not to far I'll drop by and
let my car have you talking to yourself:), then again its
probably something very simple.I'm just tired of this already:(.
Hit me up before my car leaves me stranded again, she
leaves me(car) stranded at the farthest places, dorney park,
hatboro, jersey, the tow fees? Talk to you later.........THANKS

[alanseijas]

My shop is in Netcong, NJ. Not sure how far you are, but I would assume you're not very close.
I doubt it's something simple!
One way to fix the draw is to use a relay, hook up the wire that you found drawing the battery; and make it switched power instead of constant hot. Your headlight motors would not operate without the key in the on position, but who cares.

85 to ignition fused with a 30 amp fuse
86 to ground
30 to one side of the cut wire that is drawing
87 to the other side of the cut wire
87a not used.

I doubt this will cure your alternater killing problem, but it's a start. BTW, I'll bet you're a pro at changing alts in your car by now. I wouldn't want to race you!!!

My friend w/ All Data will be in on Thursday, 10/3. I'll ask him 4 U.

[Midnite Stalker]

Netcong? I'll check in mapquest.
So my pop-up won't work if the car is off?
I guess then I'll use the relay like you said.
LOL, you don't wanna race me, man everytime I go
in there I strip something....................... Thanks
Get back with me.............

[alanseijas]

So my pop-up won't work if the car is off?

Not wired the way I described. Only with the key on. Do you really care?

[Midnite Stalker]

Naw, I really don't care about it. Its just that when I'm washing
the car,but thats no biggie. I will try to do what you said this week...............................................OH!
I put another rebuilt on there and it reads 13v when the lights are on and sometimes drops to 12 when idling.......Thanks again

[alanseijas]

12v batteries will not charge unless they recieve a minimum of 13v. Does the voltage increase with rpm's?

[Midnite Stalker]

Yes, it climbs, but it stays in the 13s and the datalogger
only reads a constant 13. Sometimes it pulsates into the
12s. The repair manual states it should be between 14-15
volts. Thats why I'm a little worried that the might leave me
stranded soon. Darnit I want to go to e-town this weekend!:(

[alanseijas]

Wow, your car is a problem child! I don't know where or what e-town is, but if you disconnect your battery when you park; you should be okay. I wish I could help you more my friend, But I'd need to actually see your car to test it with my equipment. How far are you from my shop? It may take an exorcism, but I'd love to chase your demons away! I'd go down in history as the man who slayed the alternater killers!

[Midnite Stalker]

Rebuke my car brothea, can I get a amen! lol That was funny.
I looked up the distance up from philly to netcong 2.5 hours.
Are you near wildwood or something? E-town town is short
for Englishtown Nj.Old bridge township drag way or something
like that...............................................:)

[alanseijas]

Wildwood is 3 1/2 hours from me!
OH! E-Town! OK, OK.

[Midnite Stalker]

Dam, 3.5 hrs from wildwood goodlord! Yes E-town..