When to shift?

[Maurice]

I just got done racing for my first time. I was having a little trouble trying to figure out what rpm to shift at in 2nd and 3rd gears. I have a basically stock AWD with just a K&N Filter.

[91TSi of CDSM]

problem is that you are a ricer, you pronounce your name mo-rice right? mo- short for homo, and u for you and rice for being rice right? i am only jokin steve. i found your post for once. and another question to add, since i have a fwd where should i be shifting around? i am basically stock cept for the airflow mods, i have been shifting around 6000 for the first shift then after that takin it to 7000

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Brian
91 TSi

[Maurice]

Laugh out Loud.

[kid-tsi]

I don't know if any one has ever heard of this method, The Short-Shift?
But i will the you it works because it does!
In 1st shift at like 4500-5000, but in 2nd shift at about 3500,and 3rd shift at like 4500-5000.
Sound stupid right?
The reason is, when you hit full spool you get full boost, so you get a hell of alot of torque and it starts to pull harder and harded.
I do this, and i drive a 1g Fwd, many AWDs get met on the line, of course but 2nd threw 5th I leave them at about 4 to 5 cars.
It works great for me, you just have to find the gears power band.
In colder weather you see a way big difference too!!
kid-tsi

[NOSLO2PT0]

that might be okay for the people with the T-25 with it's quick spool up. I still don't think it will fly but....

As for me, i have 16G with ZERO portwork and my turbo doesn't even spool up until I hit 3500rpm. So I would be shifing out of second before i even hit spool. everyone shifts right around redline. Maybe next year when my tranny is done and I take it out, i'll waste a run or two trying it. but just shifting into 3rd about 300 rpm quicker, I would lose about .2 in the 1/4. Just my .02

Mike

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"Usually when you go for broke, you get there."
"It's hard to go home a winner if you never go home."

[TSi92]

Here's how I do it. I shift 1-2 @ 6500 rpm's 2-3 @ 6000 rpm's and then keep it in third all the way. If you have the stock exhaust you should shift like I do because the engine chokes at high rpm's, but if you have an aftermarket exhaust you should shift at redline. Anyway the best way to knowis with a dyno sheet.

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'92 Talon TSi FWD
K&N cut air can, DDP mbc @ 15 psi
14.71@96 2.5 60ft

[Cazzo]

My $0.02- Kid-tsi. I believe short shifting means shifting to a higher gear but without using the clutch. This by all means is way slower since you have to wait for the gate to open every time you pull it from gear and hold in the gate of the next gear until it pops in. I occasionaly do it but only from 3rd to 4th since the rpm drop between the 2 gears is small and it basically pops out and right in to 4th---no clutch! You may be confusing short shifting with speed shifting, which is when you shift at a lower rpm say 5500 and shift to the next gear without letting go of the gas. You shift sooner to avoid hitting the rev limiter thats all---unless your a cyborg and can shift in a nanosecond. Just curious but is this why your shifting at 4500 in 1st? For me if i shift at 4500 id have like 2000 rpms or something too low for 2nd and no low end power in my motor. Kind of like coming around a corner at a light at 20 and leaving it in 2nd which = no power. Just my $0.02 as i said. Anyway can someone correct me on the terms of short and speed shifting?

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HKS EVC IV
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K/N
Free Mods
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T-Too small for bumper cars
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[Van]

Speed shifting is shifting without letting off the gas. (rev limiter bounce, probably)

Power shifting is shifting without letting off the gas or using the clutch. (rev limiter bounce and frequent tranny work)

Never heard of short shifting...I would think shifting that way you would end up with a slower time, but I've never tried it.

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Rocky Mountain Talon - modified
Live, Learn, Love and Bleed DSM...
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[2GAWD]

Hey there! If all you have on your car is just the air filter then I would shift at 6500rpm because the t-25 really is weezing hard at that rpm. What are you launching it at? What times are you turning with it?

[2GAWD]

Guys! Common! One thing we as a racers need to understand is 1st these cars from the factory are restricted big time compared to many of the other cars out there. 2nd why in the world would anyone want to waste their time and money on a friggen Hot Dog aka Honda. I don't care what the top guys are running! Look at how much it costs them compared to what it cost us to get our DSM's to run the same times. Last but not least, what Speed Shifting, Power Shifting and Short Shifting is...

"Speed shifting is shifting without letting off the gas. (rev limiter bounce, probably)" Thanks Van

"Power shifting is shifting without letting off the gas or using the clutch. (rev limiter bounce and frequent tranny work)" Again You Da Man Van!

Now your history lesson...Haha Class pay attention!

Short Shifting is an old trick that derived from the Muscle Car era. Chrysler was one of the first car companies to successfully dragrace an AUTOMATIC transmission back car in the Ramchargers with their "pushbutton" cars with 426 MaxWedge. This was a problem for Chevy, Ford and Pontiac, because they were running 4 Speeds and the drivers were struggling with traction. They didn't have tires like we do! Anyway, to get through the tire spin when they would launch the car they would shift early(short shift) to bring the rpm's down. This would cause the tires to stop spinning and hook up. After that they would "Power Shift" from gear to gear. However, with the advent of good tires and automatic transmissions the need for "Short Shifting" is a practice that is no longer necessary.

There you have guys. Anyone older than myself (30) would know this and me personally with my Talon I wouldn't short shift it, because our cars don't have enough torque to pull from such low rpm's.

Lastly, I was raised just after that lost art of Power Shifting, but I've learned how to do it. Believe me no FWD or AWD can take it to long before expiring the trans. It's too hard on the internals and until a company like Jerico or Richmond makes heavy duty internals for our cars I wouldn't do it ( Power Shifting ) unless you have a fat wallet.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to clear everything up for everyone!

Later,

[Van]

Thanks 2GAWD,
Class is in.
I'm 35 and had never heard of that. It's good to learn something "new." I used to race a '69 Nova SS with a built turbo 400 and B&M Starshifter. So, I never had to use the short shift method. Used to whip on the 4-speeds though.

[Maurice]

im launching at like 5000-5500 and my best was a crummy 15.8@86mph.

[2GAWD]

15.8@86mph...Hmmmmm. Mine ran a 14.62@92mph. If all you all done to her is just the filter it should easily run in the mid to low 14's. However, if your track is not close to sea level that would slow it down too. One thing if you haven't replaced the clutch and it's a stocker be prepared as the stocker clutch hates launching at 5000 - 5500rpm. With the T-25 I would launch it at 5000rpm, but with the car bogging a bit. Now with the 16G launching at 5000 I get clutch spin which means she's making power, so with a ACT2100 or 2600 this would translate into tire spin. I'm figuring the car should turn low 13's. The fastest it ever ran with the T-25 is a 13.93@96mph. This was with perfect weather 60 degrees and low humidity.

Well, I hope you can figure out what's going on with it. Practice makes perfect.

[Maurice]

The track is very close to sea level. Ive never heard of anyone with just a better air filter run in the mid 14's but i dont really know that much. I think my problem is that i shift to early. I shift from 2nd and 3rd at around 5800-6000 and i was told shift around redline but i just dont know.

[2GAWD]

What track do you go to? Shifting where you do is fine, because the T-25 is working really hard at that point.

Good Luck and be patient.

[Maurice]

I went to Norwalk, Ohio.

[2GAWD]

Well! If you were going to a track closer to me here by Philly I would go watch and see what was going on. These cars were gifted with hidden ponies inside and it's a matter of combination to get them to run.

Here is what you should be doing..This is merely a suggestion.

On cooler days let the engine warmup.

let tire pressures down to the mid 20's

Do NO burnouts go AROUND the water

Get right to the line with rev's at 3000 and then get both staging lights lit.

As the lights come down you should have the rpms at 5000 to 5500. It almost seems like an eternity awaiting for the lights, but relax and hold on to the wheel with two hands cause an AWD car hooks hard.

First gear flies by and as it gets to 6000 whack the clutch very hard and very fast and yank the shifter like you want to pull it outta the floor. Above all do NOT lift the throttle. When she engages second she'll jump hard.

As second gear winds out you have to prepare for third because these cars don't engage third very nicely. You may have to lift a small amount on the throttle to unload the trans a bit. Then at 6500 go for third gear. Be sure to put your weight behind the change

At this point a stocker will actually start laying over because the T-25 can't blow and harder. However, it'll run right up to 100mph in the quarter provided everything is ok.

Good Luck!

[Stephen]

heh, cool. I have to say I just got my 95 Tsi and am findinf all this very usefull. Now I have to smack my scared arse into trying to launch. This is my first manual transmission ever. Never even sat in one before this, hehe sad I know. Ive had it for 3 weeks and can drive it normally with the occasional bump while shifting(sometimes i forget to gas it, DOH!) and was wondering about the whole best times to shift while in a moment where "fast accelleration is needed" -=Stephen 95 Tsi awd green

[2GAWD]

That's a tricky one there...However FYI these cars are actually 3 Speeds with two overdrives. First gear is very steep like 3.30 something to 1 then it drops down to 2.20 something for second gear then 1.11 to 1 third and .095 etc.. these are exact, but I know for a fact that 3rd gear is very close to one to one and fourth gear is like over drive.

Anyway, back to your question...I personally have down shifted to 3rd while going 70 to 75 mph and stabbed the throttle to the floor and found out fast I had to up shift quickly, because the car accelerates <sp> quickly. One before you do this understand that you MUST blip the throttle UP to where you think the rpm's will be to bring engine speeds up to vehicle speeds otherwise what happens is the car could lock the tire trying to slow instead of going. Not only that the car will buck hard.

This subject takes us toward road racing territory and I think the guys at RRE would best be suited towards this as they are professionals. Still, if you watch a road race and can hear the drivers as they approach the turn they do the same thing except they are really trying to slow the car so they use the brakes too along with the engine. As for a stock Talon I'd say you'll find second gear to be your acceleration gear. Mine with a 16G(stock) 2.5 to 3" exhaust UIP, BOV and nothing else really yanks hard in second from 4k to 7k and the boost hovers around 16 to 18psi, but slowly works it's way to 20psi. The nose of the car never drops down like a stocker will at high rpms. So for those of you out there thinking about the upgrades a 16G will be the single best investment. However be forwarned..As you apply more power to this engine everything else will wear quicker too...Like the clutch!

[Donnie]

Okay... Where to shift? Go to the local dyno and make a few pulls. This will give you a graphical depiction of exactly where and when your car makes power. When you see the peak of the horsepower graph, move just a little farther to the right and that's where you want to shift. That way when the rpms fall back for the next gear, they fall just to the other side of max power and you pull through it again. You ALWAYS want to be in max power when racing. Shifting too early will not allow the car to ever make it to max power and shifting too late will bring the rpms back right at max power but the power will fall off the entire pull in that gear. You want constant accelleration.

My example:
My car was on the dyno in June and pulled 212fwhp @ 6000rpms with 225lb-ft @ 3200rpms (14psi). I shift at 6500rpms, just as the max power starts to fall off. That brings me into the next gear at around 5000-5200rpms, which is where my power band is leveling out.

First gear is wicked tall in my car. No traction is to be found there at all under WOT. At the track I will launch at 4000-4500rpms. The engine will bog and then the tires will spin like mad when the turbo spools. Second gear pulls like a rocket sled. At 40mph, traction can become a serious issue. At 80mph third gear pulls strong enough to put my head against the headrest. Fourth gear pulls but not hard enough to be a threat and fifth gear is mainly for cruising and not to be raced in.