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Old 02-23-2012, 10:03 PM   #16
BISHILVR
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Re: Outlander 4g64 in a DSM?

Hopefully it can, some of the blocks dont exactly bolt up though.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:28 PM   #17
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Re: Outlander 4g64 in a DSM?

Guys... There are not that many differences between the engine blocks. I'm not sure why everyone thinks just because they flipped the engine around that they made major changes to the design of the block. THEY DIDN'T! Starter used to be in the back - now it's in the front. Oil filter used to be in front - now it's in the back. Pretty much everything is identical - just turned around.

The big change was the head, but even that was pretty much just a flip in design.

The one thing they did change, and it's noted below, was the oil pan layout. Just like a 6-bolt and 7-bolt oil pan are different, so this one is different. Other than that, not much changed.

Now, that said, the pistons are WAY different, so not sure how that will work. On a standard 4G64 from the 94-99 era, the pistons were dished, but came up to the top of the cylinders. On the newer flipped around engines, the pistons are flat top, and do not come all the way to the top. Not sure of the strength of the flat tops, or how they will clear. Given how far they sit down in the cylinder, I'd guess they will clear, though.
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:37 AM   #18
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Re: Outlander 4g64 in a DSM?

I have never looked too deep into swapping the newer 64' into anything old 63' powered, but I remember there being some issue with it and I thought that Buschur racing said that they found that its not feasable for whatever reason.
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:33 AM   #19
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Re: Outlander 4g64 in a DSM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bettfootball View Post
Can it bolt up to a 2g trans?
From my measurements, yes it can. That would take care of the other 3 mounts.

Spyder4g64 is correct, the pistons are not dished they just simply sit down from the deck around 1/8". I was planning to swap piston/rod for a forged setup, but it would be good to note the differences anyways.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:51 PM   #20
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Re: Outlander 4g64 in a DSM?

Minor speed bump has been found with the bell housing bolt pattern. The only difference I can tell of is the bottom right bolt hole is in the wrong spot. The top right bolt hole which has the dowel pin is in fact on the 2g 4g63/4g64, just not with a dowel pin. If you look at these pics from Project Zero G, you can see the difference between this blocks bolt pattern (which is the same as Evo 4-9) and the the USDM 7-bolt's.

Here's the Evo 4-9 block which is the exact same bolt pattern as my Outlander 4g64.



Here is the USDM 7-bolt (found in DSM's)




So I'm juggling idea's right now on how to solve the issue with the one bolt hole being off.

First idea: Install the trans with 1 less bolt and bore the hole where the new dowel pin will go. This would be the easiest and cheapest way to do it. This might not be the optimal idea for the really high horsepwer drag cars as the trans could use all the support it needs under 600hp+ launches. But with case hardened (or even chrome) bolts that would be installed plus the addition of a bore for the new dowel, I'm certain it would hold up to some pretty good power regardless of a missing bolt.

Second idea: A full adapter plate. This would have to thick enough to cover the dowels completely as well as include new dowels for the 2g trans. It would also need to be thick enough to supprt the entire tans. However, even at the bare minimum to cover the dowels and support the trans, I would be shifting the entire transmission over about 1/2". This means the passenger side axle would be an 1/2" too long and the driver side axle would be 1/2" too short. That would be acceptable, but I doubt the carrier bearing for the driver side axle would match up. So that would mean you now need a custom bracket for the carrier bearing. Then you have the issue of the transfer case on AWD cars since it bolts up to the transmission. The transfer case being shifted 1/2" could cause premature wear on the driveshaft. This could be solved by extending the adapter plate to fit the transfer case, but then your reudcing the surface area of the output shaft which could cause the splines to wear prematurely as well. Here's a rough sketch of what I'm talking about. The red is where the adapter plate would go, the blue is where it would need to be extended for AWD application. It would also need to extend to house the starter which isn't shown. Overall, this idea seems too complicated to be justified.



Third idea: Custom bell housing. F*** that. Moving on.

Fourth and best idea: A small triangle shaped peice of aluminum or steel that bolts to the engine side of the upper right hand trans bolt. It could have a dowel on it for alignment and then I could remove the dowel from the wrong spot. Or bore the trans bolt hole so there are 3 dowels supporting the trans! This would be cheap, very easy, and would give even the high HP guys a chance to use the 3g blocks. Here's a rough sketch of what I'm talking about:



This would truly be the most optimal way of doing this and will be the route I try to take first. It would let me keep the trans bolted straight to the engine, support the trans with all of the factory bolt locations, and I could use a very thick (around 1" or so at the corner) bracket for the missing bolt hole location.

Thoughts? Questions? Alternative ideas?
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:21 PM   #21
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Re: Outlander 4g64 in a DSM?

With 7 bolt 64 so common, is this worth the work?
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:49 PM   #22
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Re: Outlander 4g64 in a DSM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swade View Post
With 7 bolt 64 so common, is this worth the work?
Not for the average person just looking to get a 2.4. I'll admit the 2g 4g64 would be much more cost effective, easier to find, easier to install, etc. But I think it's a pretty cool little side project. And if one bolt hole is all that keeps us from using 3g 4g63/4g64 engines, then it would be beneficial to everyone if I can figure it out.

I mean imagine if instead of the answer being "No, it won't work at all", the answer would be "Yes, all you need is this funny little bracket that some crazy guy came up with". Especially around here where every DSM in the junkyard has been stripped clean while the 3g Eclipses sit there untouched taunting you with their 4g64.
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Last edited by Wes393; 02-27-2012 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:33 AM   #23
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Re: Outlander 4g64 in a DSM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BISHILVR View Post
Hopefully it can, some of the blocks dont exactly bolt up though.
^^^ Bump lol.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:50 PM   #24
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Re: Outlander 4g64 in a DSM?

Keeping an eye on this post. Hope something really awesome comes out of this adventure!
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Old 02-28-2012, 08:14 PM   #25
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Re: Outlander 4g64 in a DSM?

I ordered a starter plate today so we can see just how much off the trans bolts are. From looking at pics the lower right hand corner might not be the only problem area, but we'll see!
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Old 02-28-2012, 08:30 PM   #26
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Re: Outlander 4g64 in a DSM?

Did you put this in your talon yet?



Haha
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Old 02-28-2012, 09:05 PM   #27
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Re: Outlander 4g64 in a DSM?

^ Yup got it built up, thrown in, and tuned all in 45 minutes!
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:30 AM   #28
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Re: Outlander 4g64 in a DSM?

4G63 head on a 4G64 is quite common, you will have a problem clearing the Water pump with the cam belt idler Info here.

http://www.hotrodcoffeeshop.com/foru....php?f=8&t=626

The 4G64 Block DOES come in 2 major configurations, Narrow Block 12 1/4 inch Bell-housing, and Wide Block 13 1/4 inch Bell-housing. From My experience Transverse mount Transmissions are Narrow.

This is where you will get screwed if at all.
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Old 04-09-2012, 06:49 PM   #29
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Re: Outlander 4g64 in a DSM?

Nice, I can't wait for the final results.
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