I'm new to the forum and had some questions about water injection. I recently made a water injection system for my car and have started experimenting with different mixtures to add to the water, but I was hoping to get some information about what other people have used? Such as what mixtures work better to help prevent detonation plus add a little more power to the intake charge? Does methanol work better than alcohol, and what percentages have worked the best 50/50, 70/30, or just plain water?
Make sure the pump can handle alcohol. If the pump isn't designed for alcohol than it will have a short life. Alcohol shouldn't add any power to the intake, it should just cool the air intake temp. Alot of the GN guys with alcohol injection run 70-71% or 91% isopropyl alcohol, some mix with water.
I did some research on this topic a few months ago and found the best info at the GN site http://www.turbobuick.com and a site from one of it's members: Steve Chulpsa. Here is a web site with some great info:
That is some "cool" sh*t... I definitely plan on trying it out. Not sure when though. It sounds much better than just squirting it on the intercooler. Anybody else here actually squirt alcohol into the uic pipe...?
I'm definitely curious as to which nozzle size worked best and what map switch you've used. I can probably get a map switch easily, just curious as to what has been used and worked.
Methanol works best but is corrosive. Denatured alcohol is next. Then comes 91% isopropyl drugstore rubbing alcohol. Thats the order that they fall in. Methanol making the most power.
I run denatured and it makes alot of power that I can actually feel over the 91% alcohol. I have used the 91% for years with great success. There is no need to mix more water to 91% or 70%. In fact I wouldn't even use 70% cause most pumps cant handle the water content. Pumps is the major thing here.
I would not run just water no way! Water creates corrosion. Alcohol (91%) actually cleans out your engine while reducing cylynder temps by as much as 200 degrees.
I also sell kits and parts to make your own, and I am listed as one of the turbo regal/gn vendors for alcohol injection, but I have sold kits to users with Stealth R/T twin turbos, Mitsubishi 3000GT's, etc.
I just recently sold one to LS1 motorsports for their 98 turbocharged camaro. He mentioned me in GM high-tech performance magazine, that just came out at the stands.
These kits work on any turbocharged, supercharged, blown engine, period. Alcohol will allow you to run more boost on pump gas. Kits can be
Denatured alcohol is usually found in stores that carry paint supplies. For example K-mart, Walmart, etc.
Or places like Sherman Williams, etc. It is alot easier to find than you think. Usually sells for around $8.00 a gallon, and that gallon lasts quite a while.
Denatured has no water in it. It is more of a fuel where as rubbing alcohol(91%) has some water in it(9%). My expericences show that both work great, so the major difference is that the denatured burns better than alcohol and water. I see this obviously with an Oxygen sensor gauge and exhaust temperature gauge. 91% giving more rich mixtures than denatured.
For example: with 91% I run fat off the line with 880 o2 volts half way down the track, then the o2's start to drop and when I hit the 1/4 mile mark, my o2's are around 780.
With denatured I leave the line with 820 o2 volts and get to the end with 780 o2 volts.
The differences noted is because of the water content in the 91% alcohol.
Some people e-mailed me on whether or not the kits I sell can be adapted to fit vehicles other than turbo regal/gn's and others I didn't mention in my last post, and the answer is yes. The most important thing is space for the tank and pump, and their location. If there is no space for the tank then your winshield washer tank must be used.
I was under the impression that alcohol and water are used because of their specific latent heats, not just because they burn or can be used as fuel. Personally, I don't want to turn my car into a alcohol funny car, I just want to cool the intake air so that I can run higher boost without detonation (and without a FMIC). In this case, water or any solution of alcohol would be perfectly suited. The fact that alcohol is combustable is simply a benefit. Methanol is too corosive and will destroy just about any pump you use. Straight water is also corosive but not as bad as Methanol. I would prefer to use an alcohol blend or denatured alcohol too, but not solely because they burn.
In the end, I agree. Denatured alcohol is the best choice, not just because of what is--combustable--but also because of what it is not--corosive.
Donnie,
You are absolutely right. The reason I went with water injection was for the same reason you are interested in it. I could not afford to buy a front mount and thought water injection would be a good alternative. Currently I'm running a mixture of isopropyl alcohol and water and it does seem to help cool the intake charge more than just plain water. I'm running 17-18psi of boost with my stock 13b turbo (A/T's have smaller turbos) and have had no signs of detonation that's with 92 octane pump gas. It has helped reduce knock also. The other reason I'm running a mixture of water and alcohol is because even though we don't see to many days of below freezing weather in Arizona it will keep the water from freezing. I had to mount my water pump where my fog light used to be so it's exposed to the cold air and in theory could freeze. This is a link to my install if your curious to see what it all looks like.
Correct Donnie alcohol is used for the heat it creates. 91% flashes the same as 110 octane and can cool cylinder temperatures as much as 200 degress. Yes methanol is corrossive and pumps dont last long with methanol, but my pumps do not corrode because they are designed for methanol. Methanol is fuel really, harmful if you touch,breathe, ect.. Absolutely denatured is great. For your case specific 91% or denatured will work best. you might need that little bit of water the 91% rubbing alcohol has for better cooling. Not sure what you want to install alcohol injection on. Does it have an intercooler?
I want to install it on my '95 Eclipse GST. I can't afford a FMIC right now and the benefits that alcohol injection propose sound very nice. Even if I had a FMIC I'd still want to use alcohol injection to reduce the intake temps even more. It's such a great idea.
Give me some particulars of your system Joe.
__________________ '95 Mitsu Eclipse GS-T
HKS intake, Injen intake pipe, 16G Killer, Apexi BOV, 2.75" RS-R downpipe (no cat), 2.75" RS-R cat-back, Stillen 10lb. flywheel, Centerforce DF, 8mm wires, NGK 7's, Apexi Super AFC, Greddy Profec A, Energy Suspension motor mounts
If alcohol injection is so great then why don't more of the fast guys use it? Are there any disadvantages to using it? I would think that the addition of a non-combustible liquid such as water in the cylinders would reduce the power produced by the explosion of fuel and air.
Also, if used in conjunction with a FMIC and race gas, would that mean that I would be able to run even more boost?
The reason more guys aren't using it is because they don't know about it or they don't understand how it works. There have been several tests done showing that there are really no disadvantages to it at all, in fact it basicaly steam cleans your engine, removing any carbon buildup on your pistons and valves and therefore removes any potential hot spots. The only big problem is if you run out of alcohol or water during a run. You have to remember that water & alcohol injection have been around since the 40's when they used it in fighter planes, P-51's, P-40's you name it. And it was used extensively in the 50's and 60's with the big block guys. The problem is, is that not a lot of people have used it in the import scene. As far as using a non combustible liquid, you have to remember that when the water is injected into the cylinders it vaporizes, and doesn't stay in a liquid form. Besides the whole reason you use race gas is because it burns slower not faster. And yes if you used it in conjunction with a FMIC and race gas you could run more boost. I'm running 17-18psi on my stock 13b with my stock fuel pump and my stock sidemount IC and have no signs of detonation. Try doing that without water & alcohol injection and I guarantee you the engine would'nt be running to long!
You're right. Water is not combustable. In the case of water injection, it is not used as a fuel, it is used as a heat sponge. Water absorbs an enormous ammount of heat in its vaporization process. This is exactly why our cars use water (or antifreeze) as a coolant. Once the water has reached its point of vaporization, it ceases to absorb heat (or at least doesn't absorb as much), and turns to steam.
One serious issue with water injection (and most any liquid injection) is that water is a noncompressable compound. That means that if you put too much water into your chamber you can hydrolock the motor and destroy it. But before you ever reached that point you would be drowning out the spark and losing power.
Another problem with alcohol and water injection is that they cause substantially more cylinder wear than non-injected engines. I guess this is due to a non-gaseous compound in the firing chamber, don't really know. This test was conducted by Mopar way back when and was an endurance test of 100,000 miles. Basically, if you plan on having your foot mashed to the floor for 100,000 miles, you might want to reconsider injection. For us daily drivers, it produces no more wear than normal driving (or so I have heard).
This is all theory and opinion since I don't have the system installed, and don't quote my scientific analysis too much because it's been a while since I had Chemistry (but not that long ago).
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Alcohol injection info
I just want to cool the intake air so that I can run higher boost without detonation (and without a FMIC). In this case, water or any solution of alcohol would be perfectly suited. The fact that alcohol is combustable is simply a benefit. Methanol is too corosive and will destroy just about any pump you use. Straight water is also corosive but not as bad as Methanol. I would prefer to use an alcohol blend or denatured alcohol too, but not solely because they burn.
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