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Outlander 4g64 in a DSM?

14K views 28 replies 12 participants last post by  MysticMarine 
#1 ·
Well I found one of these for insanely cheap and decided to pick it up. I knew I could at least use the crank for a stroker build, but it would be best if I could use the entire block. Well, if my measurements are corrrect (12.5" between lower most trans bolt holes), it's a narrow block! And that's not even the coolest part... Here's some pics.









Here's the coolest part: A factory knock sensor! :cool:. That means no drilling and tapping for a knock sensor. That oil pressure sending unit would also make a good secondary source for an oil pressure reading.


So I'm fairly certain I'm breaking some new ground here by using a 4g64 from a 2003 Outlander. So far, it seems 100% possible to use this engine in a DSM. I plan to build it over time and note any differences/issues I run into by using this block.
 
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#3 ·
They are indeed transverse mounted in the Outlander. I'm pretty sure it's the same engine as the 3g Eclipse GS. But from my understanding, that's mainly an issue with the head and engine mounts. So if I use a DSM DOHC head, DSM motor mounts, and a DSM trans, in theory it should work. Unless I'm missing something big. I guess we will find out! :D
 
#6 ·
The benefit is that it cost less than a carton of cigarettes for the entire long block. And I still cant see how it would be a ton of work. Especially since the head bolted right up and is facing the right direction...

Cam gears are on the right side.


Exhaust ports face the new "front" of the engine.


Intake ports are correct.


All head bolt holes lined up perfect.


The water pump faces the front as does the T-stat housing. Even the balance shafts are the same orrientation as the 2g 4g64/4g63 with the higher shaft on the front and the lower shaft on the back. I haven't torn into the timing case yet which I will be doing shortly. But I'm sure I'll find it's basically the same orientation as the 2g 4g63/4g64. It's possible that the Outlander 4g64 is not mirrored like the 3g 4g63/4g64, rather flipped and with a mirrored head installed.
 
#9 ·
Not perfectly, no. But IIRC the drain holes to the 4g63 aren't spot on either. However, the 3 drain holes in the head do sit over drain holes in the block, just slightly off. The rest would be the typical holes that need to be plugged when putting a 4g63 head onto any 4g64 block. When I get the pan off I'll see how much oil they can flow. If anything, just taking the casting marks off the oil drain holes would open them up quite a bit.



Here's the timing components. The oil pump is in the right spot and the pulleys seem to be in the right spot as well.


Just to clear the air I'm not trying to prove anything right or wrong. I'm just as skeptical as you guys as I'm just waiting for something to be horribly off. But so far, it seems to me that it's possible. If I can get this to work, that just means we all have another source for 4g64 blocks. If not, at least I tried :).
 
#13 · (Edited)
Yeah they looked cast to me.



I'll have to use the same oil pan since it bumps out at the dipstick. Thats not a big deal though, I could just have an AN fitting welded on for the turbo oil return.



I also tested the oil drains with a gallon of barely used oil. All of them function perfectly and the head didn't flood even after pouring the whole gallon into the head.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Guys... There are not that many differences between the engine blocks. I'm not sure why everyone thinks just because they flipped the engine around that they made major changes to the design of the block. THEY DIDN'T! Starter used to be in the back - now it's in the front. Oil filter used to be in front - now it's in the back. Pretty much everything is identical - just turned around.

The big change was the head, but even that was pretty much just a flip in design.

The one thing they did change, and it's noted below, was the oil pan layout. Just like a 6-bolt and 7-bolt oil pan are different, so this one is different. Other than that, not much changed.

Now, that said, the pistons are WAY different, so not sure how that will work. On a standard 4G64 from the 94-99 era, the pistons were dished, but came up to the top of the cylinders. On the newer flipped around engines, the pistons are flat top, and do not come all the way to the top. Not sure of the strength of the flat tops, or how they will clear. Given how far they sit down in the cylinder, I'd guess they will clear, though.
 
#18 ·
I have never looked too deep into swapping the newer 64' into anything old 63' powered, but I remember there being some issue with it and I thought that Buschur racing said that they found that its not feasable for whatever reason.
 
#20 ·
Minor speed bump has been found with the bell housing bolt pattern. The only difference I can tell of is the bottom right bolt hole is in the wrong spot. The top right bolt hole which has the dowel pin is in fact on the 2g 4g63/4g64, just not with a dowel pin. If you look at these pics from Project Zero G, you can see the difference between this blocks bolt pattern (which is the same as Evo 4-9) and the the USDM 7-bolt's.

Here's the Evo 4-9 block which is the exact same bolt pattern as my Outlander 4g64.



Here is the USDM 7-bolt (found in DSM's)




So I'm juggling idea's right now on how to solve the issue with the one bolt hole being off.

First idea: Install the trans with 1 less bolt and bore the hole where the new dowel pin will go. This would be the easiest and cheapest way to do it. This might not be the optimal idea for the really high horsepwer drag cars as the trans could use all the support it needs under 600hp+ launches. But with case hardened (or even chrome) bolts that would be installed plus the addition of a bore for the new dowel, I'm certain it would hold up to some pretty good power regardless of a missing bolt.

Second idea: A full adapter plate. This would have to thick enough to cover the dowels completely as well as include new dowels for the 2g trans. It would also need to be thick enough to supprt the entire tans. However, even at the bare minimum to cover the dowels and support the trans, I would be shifting the entire transmission over about 1/2". This means the passenger side axle would be an 1/2" too long and the driver side axle would be 1/2" too short. That would be acceptable, but I doubt the carrier bearing for the driver side axle would match up. So that would mean you now need a custom bracket for the carrier bearing. Then you have the issue of the transfer case on AWD cars since it bolts up to the transmission. The transfer case being shifted 1/2" could cause premature wear on the driveshaft. This could be solved by extending the adapter plate to fit the transfer case, but then your reudcing the surface area of the output shaft which could cause the splines to wear prematurely as well. Here's a rough sketch of what I'm talking about. The red is where the adapter plate would go, the blue is where it would need to be extended for AWD application. It would also need to extend to house the starter which isn't shown. Overall, this idea seems too complicated to be justified.



Third idea: Custom bell housing. F*** that. Moving on.

Fourth and best idea: A small triangle shaped peice of aluminum or steel that bolts to the engine side of the upper right hand trans bolt. It could have a dowel on it for alignment and then I could remove the dowel from the wrong spot. Or bore the trans bolt hole so there are 3 dowels supporting the trans! This would be cheap, very easy, and would give even the high HP guys a chance to use the 3g blocks. Here's a rough sketch of what I'm talking about:



This would truly be the most optimal way of doing this and will be the route I try to take first. It would let me keep the trans bolted straight to the engine, support the trans with all of the factory bolt locations, and I could use a very thick (around 1" or so at the corner) bracket for the missing bolt hole location.

Thoughts? Questions? Alternative ideas?
 
#22 · (Edited)
Not for the average person just looking to get a 2.4. I'll admit the 2g 4g64 would be much more cost effective, easier to find, easier to install, etc. But I think it's a pretty cool little side project. And if one bolt hole is all that keeps us from using 3g 4g63/4g64 engines, then it would be beneficial to everyone if I can figure it out.

I mean imagine if instead of the answer being "No, it won't work at all", the answer would be "Yes, all you need is this funny little bracket that some crazy guy came up with". Especially around here where every DSM in the junkyard has been stripped clean while the 3g Eclipses sit there untouched taunting you with their 4g64. :D
 
#28 ·
4G63 head on a 4G64 is quite common, you will have a problem clearing the Water pump with the cam belt idler Info here.

http://www.hotrodcoffeeshop.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=626

The 4G64 Block DOES come in 2 major configurations, Narrow Block 12 1/4 inch Bell-housing, and Wide Block 13 1/4 inch Bell-housing. From My experience Transverse mount Transmissions are Narrow.

This is where you will get screwed if at all.
 
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