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my company developed the evo 3 gt and we're damn proud of it. i'm pissed that our sales have been hurt by liers with a website. if you got a built DSM car the GT will scream. not a cheap chinese knock-off. i know the cheap chinese factories personally ... i would rather go out of business than sell their junk. our stuff is made my reputable factories with cutting-edge technology and meticulous quality control. please see my site for details.
Developed as in from ground up or reverse engineered then minor changes made? About the name, you have to admit it is a little deceiving. If I called a car a Modena 360 GT, you'd think that it had something to do with Ferrari wouldn't you?
Lastly, is the compressor housing a one piece casting or is it a two piece epoxied one?
I'll tell you what I told David Buschur. Take your imitation POS and shove it. You design a direct rip-off of a turbo with a well deserved reputation, market it with the help of shady vendors who use their reputable image to gain consumer trust that they wont steer them wrong, and then when the truth comes out you backpedal and try to explain how "superior" it is to the real MHI product. And to top it all off, you continue to price it at the same number you can buy a real MHI EVO3 for.
Great, it's ported (PS, it's not. It's cast without a step. Learn the difference and get back to us). Gee, it has a flapper that's bigger. So basically, it'll blow open over 24psi and have shitty top end? Woohoo! How about the compressor wheel that has blades that are twice as thick as the real deal? It's called efficiency. It's why the EVO3 outflows the regular Big 16G. Maybe if you learned to innovate instead of make poor imitations you'd understand that.
As for the name... ' “Evo 3” because it fits all Evo 3 applications' ?!?!? WTF does that even mean?? since when is your target market EVO3 owners? More like "EVO3 because we can dupe people into buying it under the impression that it's an MHI EVO3 turbo".
The simple truth is that you're relying on the fact that this is such a niche market to protect your ass. If Bailey, Banks, and Biddle were to start selling a fake Rolex called the "Rolex GT" as a real one, then when people caught on fessed up that it's fake but swore that it's as good as a real one and then continued to sell it - at the same price as a real Rolex, no less - do you know what would happen? They'd be under federal investigation and on the cover of many American newspapers, that's what. And Rolex would likely drop them as a vendor.
On that note, I'll point out that I've already sent a letter to Mitsu Corp. informing them of this blatant rip-off and I'd advise anyone out there with a shred of morality to do the same before the marketplace becomes flooded with crap like because of vendors who are willing to put a dollar before their integrity.
Lets try to keep this thread civil, any useless posts that clutter it up will be deleted.
Now with all the testing that you say you performed on the turbo, why wasnt a compressor map or even a dyno run released comparing it to the regular evo3 turbo.
If you really want people to think this is a better performing turbo, i better expect to see some proof.
__________________
Dave - 1993 tsi awd
"Power you can't use on a 2 wheel drive system can be maximized on a 4 wheel drivetrain" - Initial D
Here is some information that we received on the EVO3 GT series turbos. Read it and do what you want with the information. I found it pretty darn informative. Also, we have sold about 50 of these to date. I haven't had any failures still and have had nothing but good reviews. Just my two cents again.
Introducing the
Evo 3 GT
Lately there has been a lot of commotion in the Mitsubishi enthusiast community about the new turbo that was introduced by Turbochargers.com called the Evo 3 GT. “Evo 3” because it fits all Mitsubishi turbo applications, and “GT” because it is upgraded straight out of the factory—no need to pay extra to have it ported and flapped by a machine shop.
Distributors, retailers, and customers that have evaluated it, tested it, and used it, praise it.
Retailers who don’t sell it have knocked it.
This site explains it once and for all.
Ported Turbine Housing
The Evo 3 GT comes equipped with a standard ported turbine housing upgrade. The inside is not shiny, like a normal port job, because the porting was done in the casting and not done by a machinist.
When machinists port a turbo, you never know what you’re going to get. Some port jobs shave too little metal and do little to increase performance. Some port jobs shave too much metal and leave the walls of the turbine housing too thin to withstand the 1200º+ (f) temperatures and 120,000+ RPM spinning of the shaft, and lead to failure.
The GT’s designers studied many different porting designs, and ran each through sophisticated computer tests before we decided on the turbine housing design. And once we arrived on the perfect porting, we reinforced the walls of the turbine housing to MHI factory spec to give the turbo more resilience to heat than a regular ported Evo 3 turbo.
With the Evo 3 GT, customers get a perfect porting every time, with no risk of weakened turbine housing.
Increased Flapper
We increased the size of the wastegate and flapper to help avoid the ominous “boost creep.” This feature on the GT is identical to the aftermarket upgrade available from any turbo shop. The only difference: This upgrade is done at our factory at no additional cost.
Turbo Quality
Nobody wants to buy a turbo and pay for installation only to have the turbo fail in short amount of time. We understand that, and created a turbo that would stand the test of time and abuse as well as, if not better than, the Mitsubishi Evo 3 turbo.
First, the FACTORY used to develop and manufacturer this turbo has a reputation as Taiwan’s highest quality turbo factory. Again, I say Taiwan, not China. Mainland China indeed has a bad reputation for turbo quality, while Taiwan has a reputation for being the best quality manufacturing in Asia. Those companies that are losing customers to the GT want you to believe it was made in China. Not true. This factory is Taiwan’s leading volume turbo factory, and a major supplier of turbos into Japan, and for good reason—quality.
Second, our factory had help FINE-TUNING the turbo before we started selling it. This help came from a mechanical engineering Ph.D. from the Industrial Research Technology Institute (ITRI)—a nationally-subsidized R&D facility in Taiwan that is considered the “NASA of product development”—and from experts at Turbochargers.com.
Third, the Evo 3 GT underwent extensive TESTING before it was released to the public. A factory can develop a turbo in 6 weeks. We took 6 months developing the Evo 3 GT, and 4 of those months were spent testing and fine-tuning.
Test processes
This enormous air compressor pumps heated air into the turbine housing or cool air into the compressor housing. Through the use of sophisticated equipment, they are able to control the heat of the air and flow rate to simulate every circumstance the turbo may encounter during use, then the advanced software (shown below) maps out the results.
Compressor Wheel Testing
To ensure that the compressor wheel can withstand any amount of abuse without breaking, we performed a thorough series of “stop tests.” This is performed by bringing the turbo up to 120,000 RPMs through pumping air into the compressor housing inlet, then, to test the strength of the compressor wheel blades, the compressor housing outlet is blocked, thus putting literally tons of air pressure onto the compressor wheel blades. This test is performed over and over again until the president of the factory is satisfied, usually 40 or 50 consecutive times.
In order to comfortably pass this rigorous compressor wheel strength test, we decided to make the blades on the compressor wheels thicker than Mitsubishi’s. Fundamentally, Mitsubishi’s 49178-01470 (Evo 3) is designed to be stock replacement turbo. The Evo 3 GT was designed and built for racing.
Wheel Balancing
We used state of the art balancing equipment to balance the Evo 3 GT cartridge to Mitsubishi’s exacting tolerances. (see balancing machine below)
This is the most critical part of turbo. During racing conditions, turbos often heat up to 1200+º degrees (f), and therefore the turbo needs to be built to handle those hellish conditions with ease.
TURBINE WHEEL: Extreme heat can weaken the wheel’s metal alloy and cause it to stretch, bang up against the turbine housing, chip, and then consequentially destroy the turbo. This is the most difficult part of the turbo to test, requiring the turbo to run at red-line speeds for 7 days straight at great expense to the factory. Needless to say, the turbine wheel passed this test with flying colors, not even stretching a fraction of a millimeter.
TURBINE HOUSING: The turbine housing is equally susceptible to heat damage as the wheel. Improperly designed turbine housings can warp and distort the ultra-fine tolerances, or simply crack (like how cheap headers crack). This is tested at the same time as the turbine wheel, 7 straight days of 150,000 RPM at an average temperature of 1300º (f). Like the wheels, the turbine housing performed beautifully.
MATERIAL COMPOSITION: Turbine housings are composed of 42 different elements, but the most important element is nickel (Ni). The Evo 3 GT’s turbine housing is composed of 12.45% nickel, higher than Mitsubishi’s, which gives the GT greater resilience to heat.
COLOR: The difference in color between the GT and Mitsubishi Evo 3 has more to do with the trace elements than the primary materials. Our competitors want you to believe that color is a reliable indicator of quality.
Rather than using shoddy packaging as from Mitsubishi [per UPS reqirements], we chose to spend more money and package our premium turbo with premium packaging. Each Evo 3 GT comes in a ¼”-thickness box, with form-fitted foam for maximum protection during shipping, and two separate pieces of foam for easy removal.
Some of the Evo 3 GT’s competitors are working very hard to convince Mitsubishi enthusiasts that the Evo 3 GT is a fraud, a failure, and a fake.
The truth is, nobody has ever attempted to pass off the GT has a genuine Mitsubishi turbo. Why would we? The GT is a specialty performance turbo that is affordable, not an overpriced stock replacement with overpriced upgrades.
The “China GT,” as some call it, is NOT made in China, but rather in Taiwan—the quality manufacturing capital of Asia. This is a deception of the lowest caliber perpetrated by individuals who are proving themselves to be of low integrity.
Don’t judge the performance of a turbo by its color. Test the GT against the normal Evo 3 on a car, on a dyno, or in a testing lab, and you won’t find an inferior turbo in the GT.
The critics of the GT are so desperate for arguments against our turbo that they have resorted to using fake pictures. The most egregious example of this slander is from Slowboy Racing’s comparison of a “good” Mitsubishi-made Evo 3 thrust bearing against a “bad” Mitsubishi-made thrust bearing. They are claiming that the bad thrust bearing is from the Evo 3 GT. In fact all the pictures are of Mitsubishi thrust bearings. None is of the GT. Notice that both of the thrust bearings they compared have the same numbers?
The GT was created to provide the Mitsubishi enthusiast community with a low-cost, high-quality turbo for their Mitsubishi cars. As is the case with any new product, some people with vested financial interests in the current product will say anything, true or false, to ruin the market for the new product. Don’t be fooled by these slander artists into paying more money. The GT is an excellent turbo at an excellent price.
It's only fair that both sides are provided. Also a local kid just returned after spending $10,000 at Buschur's to have a stage 3 block and head with alot of other maintenance and performance stuff (car had a blown motor and was almost stock when it went there) and one of these EVO III GT turbo's on the car and he absolutely loves it. Car has had no issues so far.
The Turbochargers.com connection is not a good thing in my opinion. That is purely based on the numerous posts I've seen over the years associating them with shoddy work, denied warranties, etc. However, based on the increasing number of people who have posted here thinking that vendors shipping stuff late and leaving stuff out of shipments and causing them delays is cool and all these days; I'd guess that the new Turbochargers.com EVO III GT turbo will be a smash success.
The internet is a great place to be deceived and it is unwary consumers who get taken. We've seen that here before a few years back. So in the end the people who believe that this is a better turbo than what has been race proven for many years will be the ones who prove this turbo out. Most people don't like to be told, "We told you so," but as long as they provide direct feedback about any failures the "truth" will wash out pretty quickly.
Until that happens, I'd say stick with what is known to work and provide great reliability. Unless you feel lucky...
Please note that the quote attributed to Buschur above is copied word-for-word from the Turbochargers site here: http://www.turbochargers.com/Evo3GT.htm (presumably they are the original authors). This is the exact same page posted by the thread starter.
I find the original poster's intentions are questionable. Are you trying to promote your product (i.e. advertising) or are you trying to start a legitimate debate on this turbo. So far, with only one post I am leaning towards the former but I'll give you a chance to demonstrate otherwise.
Everyone, thanks for the comments. let me sift through them.
1st, Jehu, i don't think it's decieving to call it "evo 3 gt" because if we didn't call it "evo 3" people wouldn't know the application. and "gt" because it was altered a little bit to be better than the stock evo 3. and yes we reversed engineered and made some changes...we wouldn't be the first. there is a huge global market for aftermarket turbos. some are good, many are bad. you need to listen to people who have used them and judge by who is distributing it--a distributor with a good reputation would not sell a shoddy turbo.
2nd, Steve93Talon, say 'hi' to your friends at slowboy for me. I don't like your tone. we have never passed this off as an MHI. if you had ever seen an MHI evo 3 then you'd know that is doesn't say "Evo III GT" in big block letters on the compressor housing. and putting the dollar before integrity? since when is challenging a behemoth multinational company like Mitsubishi a demonstration of a lack of integrity? grow up.
... gotta run. will get to everyone else's comments tomorrow. but to respond to AWDterror quickly, i'm trying to both get feedback on the turbo, about people's experiences and thier perception, and clear the air a little bit from some low blows dealt by a company with a strong finanical interest in the stock Evo 3s.
Funny that PTE, AGP, Bullseye, FP, and any other turbos that are designed or altered to bolt directly onto DSMs don't need Mitsubishi-copy names to sell well. I don't have any friends at Slowboy, sorry. I have seen real EVO3 turbos, BTW. I can easily see through your disception. The point is that there are people out there who have not seen a real one, would not know the difference, have been or will be duped, and I'm proud to be one of the people looking out for them. That's what these forums are supposed to be about.
__________________
Think Different
Last edited by Steve93Talon; 06-05-2005 at 06:18 PM.
I personally believe that there is a alot of deceptiveness in how the GT is named. Although it does use a VERY simliar name, the actual name of the product is at least listed on the turbo in big bold lettering. That guy selling them on ebay was advertising them as 'EVO III' instead of 'EVO III GT' which probably got alot of people's to purchase this product without knowing what they were buying. That is just bad business. I also have a feeling that it is him who started this thread again. Its only a thought, but that is another story.
Now that all of this stuff is finally coming to light the people who are considering the purchase of a new turbo will at least be informed. This give them the ability to make the choice themselves instead of possibly being duped into buy the GT turbo unknowingly.
I think more proof in the performance and reliability is needed. Performance isn't that hard to prove, dyno both turbos. They're nearly identical, bolt up the same and could probably be done in a weekend. Somebody has to prove one way or another how it performs. Why doesn't a vendor step up and do its own testing? This would have to be from somebody like Buschur, RRE or Extreme Motorsports.
Proving the reliability is a much harder thing to do. It'll possibly take years and/or many miles to see how time tells its story with the GT turbo. Unless a 3rd party or one of the reputable vendors wants to step in and run its own high end stress tests on these new turbos.
Fact is, its still an unproven turbo. There are many things that need to be discussed and proven one way or another.
I want to see alternatives on the market, but not cheap knock offs. Prove that this and any future turbos are indeed reliable performers and you have my vote.
My two Canadian cents,
Chris.
__________________
~Chris -
1995 TSI AWD - 12.95 @ 104.3mph w/1.71 60ft - August 2006 - RIP
1997 TSI AWD - 12.63 @ 108.1mph w/1.70 60ft - August 2007
the gt may be equal or superior to the mhi. i really can't say. here's what i do know.
1. it's taken 6 months since the gt came on the market for bbl automotive to respond to the negative publicity.
2. if the gt is a copy of the mhi, then, it's mitsu that invested their resources to research and "develop" the evo 3. the only thing bbl automotive did was pay some contractor to copy the evo 3. "develop"... i think not.
3. "lower cost"? really. why would anyone pay for a generic no-brand turbo when they can purchase a real mhi for nearly the same price?
4. what has a lot of dsm'er up in arms is the unethical, deceptive naming and marketing of this generic no-brand turbo.
*If you pay before 3pm, we ship it the same day. The shop is MAC autosport, they're in parker. They sell the exact same turbo as the one I have on ebay, as I sell them turbos as well. Their price, though, is higher than mine. http://www.macautosport.com/ and their phone number is 303.841.1176. Just play it cool and ask them if they have an turbos for Eclipses/Talons, and he'll tell you the specs for the only one he has in stock, which is my EVOIII GT.
The only warranty work I've done to date is to two turbos that were're installed correctly, one wasn't installed correctly and the owner didn't like to ever cool the turbo down, so it failed pretty qucikly. When you install a turbo, you have to disconnect the spark or fuel pump, and crank the engine untill the oil pressure light goes off. Both turbos I warrantied that were this exact model didn't have this done, but we warrantied them anyway.
The EVOIIIGT turbo is pretty new on the market, but I've sold about 100 of them and have had no complaints or other warranty problems with them at all. They're a solid unit that makes HP, plain and simple, and on a big scale.
Brian
4CTP
Original Message -----
From: Greg Dombrowski
To: sales@4ctp.com
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Response to your question for eBay item #7977325044 - TD05H BIG 16G EVO III EVOIII GT TURBO 4g63 DSM eclipse
Brian,
How long will it take to ship the turbo once I win the Ebay auction? I would really appreciate it if you could give me the shops info, I have never heard of this turbo before and want to make sure it is up to the task. What kind of warranty work have you had to do to these turbos to date?
Greg Dombrowski
----- Original Message -----
Subject: Response to your question for eBay item #7977325044 - TD05H BIG 16G EVO III EVOIII GT TURBO 4g63 DSM eclipse
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:26:03 -0700
From: "eBay Member: 4ctp_dot_com" <member@ebay.com>
"*Would you mind if I come and pick the turbo up? I am in your area and it would be a lot quicker than dealing with shipping. Is the warranty through you or the manufacturer? Have any dyno sheets to back up the 350+hp? Thanks a lot, my car is turboless after blowing the stock turbo so I would like to get a hold of one ASAP. Thank you.
Greg Dombrowski
207-423-2332"
Greg
*Sorry, I don't have any in stock, and my stock that is coming in is vouched for!
The warranty is through the manufacturer, but we act as a "gatekeeper" and decide weather or not to send the turbos to the manufacturer or not. Don't worry, we haven't rejected a single turbo yet.
I don't have any dyno sheets, nope. We really don't tune cars, we're just a vendor. I can put you in touch with a local shop in Denver that can vouch for the turbo's power, though, if you would like.
You can explain your reasoning for why you call your turbo what you do, but as a noobie to DSM, if I didn't know any better, I'd think you were selling the "real" EVO III turbocharger. You cannot sit there and tell me you didn't name this turbo without the intention to sell to unknowledgable customers.
Call it what you want and explain it until you're blue in the face, but to me, that's deceptive advertising. You are just trying to make money off a name that Mitsubishi created and spent millions of dollars promoting and advertising.
I'll just remember to look for the "TDO5H" and not the "EVO III" markings on the compressor housing when I decide to spend my hard-earned money for my turbocharger. Oh, and by the way, I'm sure Mitusbishi will love to know what you've done with THEIR moniker!
__________________
BaddGSX -
1995 GSX/CW Driveway Queen
"Budget" rebuild in the works for now
4g64/GT35R down the road
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