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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Bill,
I wanna know more about your 20g...
install, parts needed, difficulties, full spool-up rpm, power, street gas psi, etc.
I don't want to get a big 16g and wish if only I had listened to bill about the 20g, so inform me, please.
Thanks in advance

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Rocky Mountain Talon - modified
Live, Learn, Love and Bleed DSM...

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The 20G is a direct bolt up since its a Mitsu turbo. When you buy one specify these details up front: clip and exhaust housing size. BR normally specifies a 15 degree clip, however, I like mine @ 10. I get better spool time but their's can flow better at greater than 8000 rpm. When it comes to exhaust housing size, always choose the 7 cm over 6 cm or even 10! 10 just takes too long to get the exhaust wheel moving (remember the Bernoulli equation you MEs!).

The turbo will most likely have to be reclocked to fit where you want the exducer to point. I have mine clocked -80 degrees (e.g. its pointing mostly down and slightly toward the radiator). Some people find they need to slightly dent the water return line where the compressor housing needs to sit. I did not, but I've helped install others that did. The center cartridge will be able to accept the stock lines so don't concern yourself there.

In order to truly enjoy the volume of air the large turbo can push you need an external wastegate. I know there are vendors that make larger internal gates, and even vendors that make kits for an external to dump off of the internal gate, but belive me, if you want to make real power (and trust me, you will if you buy this turbo), do it right: buy an exhaust manifold that has been modified to accept an external gate. I use a HKS race gate but I like the look of the TiAL and it works just as well if not better. I vent my gate to atmosphere but if you like to keep your hearing and the cops off your tail, you may want to find a way to vent the wastegate to the exhaust system. Also before I forget, you'll want to either weld the internal wastegate shut or drill and tap a screw in front of the flapper to keep it closed. This will also SIGNIFICANTLY decrease the opportunity for your turbine housing to crack.

On to fuel system and control. You definitely need at least 550 injectors to feed this thing. If you run a measly 18 psi on the 20G, the stock 450s will be at least 100% duty cycle. To feed the 550s you'll want to step up to a good size intank fuel pump as well. Using an AFC would be advisable to help tune the car for optimum power output.

Finally, intake components. Its suggested that for the big turbo you step you and at least upgrade the sidemount IC if not go to a full frontmount. I am still on the stock sidemount (not advisable by the way) but it works. [I'm working on a skunkworks project to fix that problem that I may divulge by Feb. if everything goes well.] A lower IC pipe and upper IC pipe are suggested.

As for running on pump gas, even with the stock sidemount I ran 18-20 psi on 93 octane fuel. I had a well tuned street car with the VPC and AFC however, your results should be based on as many datalogs as I had (somewhere around 40 WOT runs). On 114 octane race gas I'm pumping 25 psi through that little IC. I start to heat soak the IC just at the VERY end of the 1320 and I get 14-20 knock sum on a mild day.

So in essence, the 20g isn't a cheap investment, but the power is amazing and if anyone thinks their big, small, killer, super, whatever 16g is fast, you need a ride in a car with a real turbo.

[This message has been edited by dsm4eva (edited October 28, 2000).]
 

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well i guess you are refering to the hrc s-20g.
well the install was fairly easy beings that it was my first turbo install, hrc's directions were great. the only hard part of the install was port matching the turbo manifold to match the big 10cm exhaust. you see the flange on the 10cm housing is rectangle shaped just like a garrett t3 flange and the 95 manifold(and pre 95) are round with a t25 flange, so basically you have to make the stock manifold rectangle...which isn't easy on cast iron. you really have to hog it out to match the turbo, but if you want it done right, you have to do this. that part of the install took me all but 3 hrs. the kit also comes with two 1/2" thick iron plates, one that goes in between the block and the manifold and the other goes between the manifold and the turbo. the first plate(block to manifold)basically moves the turbo out away from the block because the turbine housing is so large that it would hit the block. the turbine housing is actually machined a little to help clearance still....it's that big. the second plate(manifold to turbo) changes the bolt pattern over to the garrett style t3 flange.(stock manifold has a t25 bolt flange on it)so basically you bolt the plate to the manifold, then you bolt the turbo to the plate...2 seprate sets of bolts.
other then that the kit comes with everything you need,braided oil feed line, new return line, and you have to bend the stock coolant lines a very little to fit, and the part that i like the most is a tubular o2 housing that is included in the kit.comes with all the bolts and even new,longer manifold bolts(have to be longer cause of the plate being in there now). i did have a leak at the turbo to manifold plate which was from me not tighening them enough. i fount the easiest way to deal with this was to tighten them then go out and get the manifold red hot then pull over and tighten them again...i haven't had a problem since i did this.
now for the performance part. right after i got the turbo on i wasn't very impressed as i was getting walked on by a 14b having 1g. little did i know that the car just needed tuned(this was 2 months after i bought my first turbo car, so basically i didn't know sh it)after i got everything tuned i was very impressed, this thing really kicks @ss. it has so much top end flow. this is my opinion why.. with the bigger turbine housing i think the engine is able to get the exhaust gases out more efficiently, as compared to the normal, little @ss 7cm turbine housing. ever looked into a 7cm housing, well when i do i'm wondering how the hell is 400hp worth the exhaust gases supposed to get through there.
as far as lag, i have 20psi by 3800rpm's and 25psi by 4000rpm's, but you have to have a 3" turbo back...period. so far at the track with the stock slipping @ss clutch i have ran a best of [email protected] with a 2.5 60'. on that same day i went [email protected] so you do the math. turbo is very capable of 120mph+ in the 1/4 or mid 11's. i went 116mph on the stock 2g head soooo. also i always race at 25psi w/race gas and run 20-22psi on pump gas on the street.
i just got my clutch(act 2600) in last week and plan to make it to the track by the end of the year where i hope to get close to the 11's. i definitly recommend the turbo, it will take a car with supporting mods deep in the 11's. i'd take it over a regular 20g anyday, but not a nice garrett setup ofcourse :D
i'll probably move this post to the parts review after this post cause that's what it turned out to be. also i'll take some pics of the turbo tomarrow if your intrested. if i missed anything or you have anymore questions feel free to ask away.

bill

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95 tsi-awd
91 tsi-fwd
95 civic turbo
82 gti
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the replies, I was specifically wondering about the hrc-20g w/internal wastegate. I would agree with making this a review. If I come up with more specific questions, I will e-mail you Bill. Yes, please e-mail me some pics or include them in the "review."
 

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REAL GOOD REVIEW

Yeah very good info, Bill you pretty much just got a sale for HRC. Im gonna pick one up pretty soon within teh next 2 weeks, I have been debating what turbo to get for a while now but the review was a breaking point. Pictures would be cool on the review if you post it as one. Also being that this turbo comes with an internal wastegate, is it still cool to remove it and run an external? THANKS ALSO
 

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Great writeup, Bill.

I've had a S-20G on my car for about 12 months now and have had nothing but a good experience. And does it ever have power potential! That 10cm2 turbine housing really comes into its own when you crank the boost above 20 psi. In fact, I set boost to 23-24 psi on 116 race gas and the additional power over my 18 psi street setup took me by surprise. I mean, how much more power can you get with 6 psi? Well, enough to nuke my factory 2G short block (rod let go and rest is history!). FYI, I was running mid-high 12s on my street setup.

One question, Bill. When you run 25 psi at the track do you use the 15psi actuator with the internal wastegate or have you gone to an external wastegate setup? Also, if you are using the internal wastegate, are you getting any creep at 25 psi?

Thanx for your input.
 

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hipogtr said:
Great writeup, Bill.
One question, Bill. When you run 25 psi at the track do you use the 15psi actuator with the internal wastegate or have you gone to an external wastegate setup? Also, if you are using the internal wastegate, are you getting any creep at 25 psi?
Thanx for your input.
nope i still run the internal wastegate. there is no creep with this turbo, none,zero,zilch, from 15psi-25psi boost is rock solid, not even a hint of creep :D the wastegate flapper door is huge, probably bigger then some externals(deltagate) i haven't actually measured it but it works. i use the new apexi avc-r to control the boost, and where ever i set it, it stays. i have the pics and am getting them on the net right now so they should be up shortly.

bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks again Bill,
You mentioned a garrett turbo set-up? I haven't done much research on these but, I followed a link in another post here. Do you mean the t3 or t4? ceramic ball bearing option? Which of the garrett turbos is similar to the s20 like you have but with better spool-up (I assume.) I plan on doing alot of research on this very soon...I'm not sure about the internal/external wastegate yet. I'm thinking internal as it is already in the system...
Thanks
 

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the pics

well here are the pics of this beast..






sorry ted
 

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3 more...





sorry again ted :D
 

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Super 20G

Bill,

I have read (and need to be corrected here :D ) that the higher you port the turbine exhaust inlet the more lag you will have with the turbo. For instance a 6cm port on your exhaust manifold and turbine exhaust inlet will yield a faster spool then the 7cm.

Thus if you are porting your exhaust manifold to 10cm it would seem like incredible lag to me. How can the 10cm housing provide a good spool as described? :confused:

Still keeping my turbo upgrade options open for the moment.

Bill Norton
98 TsiAWD
91 TsiAWD
 

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hehe, well it's not that big. your just matching the manifold outlet to the turbine inlet, which is still smaller then 4-1.5" runners so i don't even think it will make the least bit of diference, except it will flow better. i never even heard of that. where did you hear that from?? i think that would have more effect on the other side of the head then the exhaust side. the easier you can get the exhaust flowing over the turbine blades the faster it will spool.
all i know is that mine spools to 25psi by 4000rpm's which in my opinion isn't bad at all. if you want power, your gonna have to sacrafice spool-up time. if this turbo spooled at 5000rpms i'd still want it cause i know that it's ups far outnumber it's downs....if you know what i mean. remember this word****FLOW****if you keep that word in mind everytime you upgrade your car, you'll make some serious horsepower. and forget about this word****LAG****if you have that word in mind everytime you upgrade your car, you'll be wondering how i just blew by you after you put 2 car lenghts on me after the launch :D

bill
 

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i almost will never be going to the track..so i will probably never run more than 20psi...i was wondering if
an 34 mm flapper mod with a o2 dump tube mod in a 20g will work well...at say..15-16 psi. or is a external gate an aboslute must?
 

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Thanx for the info, Bill. Good to know.

thrownrods, there are plenty of people that have done the 34mm flapper mod on their 16Gs (and some 20Gs) and have found it to be very effective in controlling boost. The fact that you are not intending to run greater than 20psi of boost makes it even a more sensible idea. When you start to crank the boost up high (eg. 22+), boost control becomes real tough as the wastegate has to work harder to stabilize the flow (particularly with the 6-7cm housing as for a given exhaust gas volume the velocity through the tubine must increase faster the smaller the housing until a point where it begins to choke on the smaller turbine housing). Hence people go to external gates that normally have a greater ability to expel unwanted exhaust gas due to the valve sizing (eg. 35-40mm+).
 

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IC outlet???

Does the intercooleroutlet from the turbo come bent toward the stock IC? And if it does will HRC have face like most 20gs so it would connect easily to a FMIC.
 

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yup...

junior...
yes that is the way it comes from hrc. it is supposed to be just like the stock configuration. meaning you could use the turbo with the stock intercooler or a frontmount. all piping is the same as stock config.

bill
 

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Old post I no, but didnt want to start another post. Anyways, Why would you not go for the 10psi internal wg than the 15psi if you have a boost controller. With the 15psi intenal wg is the max psi higher than the 10psi wg. If not wouldnt it be smarter to go with the 10 just incase you need to turn it down. And save gas. Bill also did the customer that told you that he saved gas happen to mention what it increased to if not its ok.
 
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