i just put my clutch in and the release fins look a little too flat to me, there isnt much space for the release bearing to push them before they hit the clutch disk. what do you think? normal?
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act 2600
delSkunk
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koo, thanks man. ive done alot of clutches on hondas and they have never gotten that flat so i was a bit worried, the only time ive see one get that flat was when i put a clutch in my friends hyundai, but his was a pull type release. glad to know its normal.GSXtsy said:
J
yah i measured the step height at .610.
thanks, that was a very informative write up. another thing i dont completely understand is the extended slave rod. it seems i would better disengauge the pressure plate, but i dont know if it would be overkill or not. opinions?
J
thanks, that was a very informative write up. another thing i dont completely understand is the extended slave rod. it seems i would better disengauge the pressure plate, but i dont know if it would be overkill or not. opinions?
J
OK, here's how it works:delSkunk said:
Since the ACT2600 uses much stronger diaphragm, it also requires higher pressure inside the hydraulic system in order to compress the diaphragm and disengage the clutch. However, the master clutch cylinder is not able to develop the needed pressure if the initial pressure inside the system is at 0 psi with the clutch pedal released. That's why there needs to be an initial pressure higher than 0 psi inside the system to begin with. This is chaieved by adjusting the rod of the master cylinder, but since the rod is quite short, one runs out of its threads and the clutch consequently disengages too low or incompletely (if the master cylinder is not able to create the pressure needed to disengage the clutch even with the clutch pedal all the way to the floor).
The longer slave cylinder basically does the same what is achieved with adjusting the rod of the master cylinder. You need to loosen the bleeder of the slave cylinder in order to releave the pressure first. Then, start screwing the rod of the master cylinder in (just like you'd want to lower the engagement point of the clutch) - 'til you see that clutch pedal moving down (which means that the piston of the master cyilinder is all the way out and you're now pulling the pedal down by screwing the rod even more in). Once you see the clutch pedal moving down, stop screwing the rod of the master cylinder in and leave everything as is. Bleed the clutch with the stock slave cylinder rod, but don't touch the master cylinder rod (yet). Once the clutch is bled, unbolt the slave cylinder from the tranny and swap the rods without letting the piston of the slave cylinder slide out and getting any air inside the system. Once the rods are swapped, bolt the cylinder back on. Since the rod is now longer, it will push the piston further into the bore of the cylinder and create pressure inside the system as you bolt the cylinder on. And there you have it: Higher initial pressure without wasting the threads of the rod of the master cylinder. Once the slave cylinder with the longer rod is bolted in, the clutch should fully disengage and you may move the engagement point either higher or lower with the rod of the master cylinder without running out of its threads now.
Maybe I should do some write up on the extended rod too... :dunno:
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Taboo, i have read that extending the slave cylinder rod isn't a good way to fix problems with clutch ajustment because it winds up putting constant pressure on the throw out bearing, similar to riding the clutch. This would contribute to making the clutch slip and wear prematurely, and wouldn't be good for the thrust bearings either.
Is there any truth to this? After installing the longer slave cylinder rod are you able to adjust the master cylinder rod enough so that there isn't constant pressure on the tob? Perhaps you could shed a little more light on this.
Is there any truth to this? After installing the longer slave cylinder rod are you able to adjust the master cylinder rod enough so that there isn't constant pressure on the tob? Perhaps you could shed a little more light on this.
Taboo can better explain this but there's constant contact between the TOB and the pressure plate always.redawdturbo said:
Yes, to my own surprise, this misinfo is on RRE website. There IS constant pressure on the t/o bearing no matter what. It rides the pressure plate even with the stock clutch - or any other clutch - all the time, non-stop, if the clutch is engaged or disengaged. The ACT2600 needs more initial pressure in the system, otherwise the master cylinder won't be able to create enough pressure to disengage the clutch when the clutch pedal is all the way to the floor and the stroke of the master cylinder is maxed out. It does NOT matter if the higher initial pressure inside the hydraulic system is created by the adjustment rod of the master cylinder or the extented rod of the slave cylinder. IT DOES THE EXACT SAME THING! The clutch fork and t/o bearing don't care about the way the pressure inside the hydraulic system is created. The higher initial pressure simply needs to be there, otherwise the ACT2600 won't disengage all the way. It does NOT mean that the clutch is partially compressed and will start slipping or wearing prematurely since it takes MUCH higher pressure to actually start compressing the diaphragm of the pressure plate. The only truth to the RRE statement is that there's higher pressure on the t/o bearing, but so it is in the case of creating the higher initial pressure with the adjustment rod of the master cylinder. There's simply no way around it no matter what anybody says simply because the master cylinder has too short stroke to create enough pressure to disengage the ACT 2600 if one starts with 0 psi of pressure. If one is too concerned about the life span of the $20 t/o bearing, he can start with 0 psi in the hydraulic system and pay for new gears and synchros ruined as result of incomplete clutch disengagement just a few months down the road.redawdturbo said:
Speaking of slippage and premature wear, my ACT2600 and t/o bearing are 3.5 years old, I've been personally running the longer slave cylinder rod for the past 2 years - and the clutch grabs and holds just like the first day I installed it. Unsuported claims simply don't stand a chance against facts and personal experience. :dunno:
sorry to bombard you with retarded newbie questions, but how does the extended slave rod compare to shimming the fulcrum ball on the release fork? i thought they were supposed to do the same thing but it looks like they are not. btw, thanks for the good info.
J
J
Shimming the pivot ball will increase the throw of the clutch fork before it hits the bellhousing stop. If the throw of the fork isn't sufficient, the clutch will not completely disengage since the t/o bearing can travel only so much before the fork hits the bellhousing. However, if the pivot ball is shimmed too much, the throw of the fork is going to be longer than needed and the fingers of the pressure plate may start hitting the springs of the clutch disc - once the clutch pedal is pressed all the way to the floor and the maximum throw of the fork is realized. There's no safe way to say how much to shim the pivot ball since there's too many factors - such as the step height of the flywheel, how many times the flywheel was machined, the brand of the t/o bearing, wear of the fork and the pivot ball, etc. In most cases, though, 1 1/16" thick washer will safely improve the clutch disengagement without the pressure plate fingers hitting the springs of the clutch disc.
The longer slave cylinder rod, on the other hand, only assures that there's going to be enough pressure inside the hydraulic system to move the clutch fork all the way once the clutch pedal is all the way to the floor and the maximum stroke of the master cylinder is realized.
Basically, even if there's enough pressure in the hydraulic system, the clutch may not completely disengage because the fork doesn't have enough throw - in which case you'd have to shim the pivot ball. Then there's a situation where the fork would have enough throw, but the slave cylinder wouldn't be able to move the fork all the way since there's not sufficient pressure in the hydraulic system - in which case the clutch fork would never realize its maximum throw and the clutch wouldn't fully disengage. In that case you'd install the longer slave cylinder rod.
Ideally, you'd want to have the fork to have as long throw as possible without the fingers of the pressure plate hitting the springs of the clutch disc (which is possible to achieve only by trial and error) and only as much pressure in the hydraulic system as it takes to move the clutch fork all the way before it hits the bellhousing stop.
In regard to the last part of the sentence above, if your "full disengagement point" is set too high and the the fork hits the bellhousing stop long before the clutch pedal is all the way to the floor, you're creating just unecessary additional pressure inside the system (since the fork can't travel any farther) - and that's how people end up blowing the seals in the slave and master cylinders or (if the seals can take the pressure) lifting the fork off the pivot ball and starting to pivot it against the bellhousing stop - and eventually snapping the fork in half.
Basically, the clutch should start engaging no higher than 1/4 of the total clutch pedal travel off the floor - which asures that the clutch is 100% disengaged with the pedal all the way to the floor without any, or just very little, excessive and uneeded additional pressure created in the process. If someone's clutch starts engaging in the middle of the total clutch pedal travel - and he keeps pressing the clutch pedal all the way to the floor, he'll either blow the seals of the slave and master cylinders and/or break the fork.
The longer slave cylinder rod, on the other hand, only assures that there's going to be enough pressure inside the hydraulic system to move the clutch fork all the way once the clutch pedal is all the way to the floor and the maximum stroke of the master cylinder is realized.
Basically, even if there's enough pressure in the hydraulic system, the clutch may not completely disengage because the fork doesn't have enough throw - in which case you'd have to shim the pivot ball. Then there's a situation where the fork would have enough throw, but the slave cylinder wouldn't be able to move the fork all the way since there's not sufficient pressure in the hydraulic system - in which case the clutch fork would never realize its maximum throw and the clutch wouldn't fully disengage. In that case you'd install the longer slave cylinder rod.
Ideally, you'd want to have the fork to have as long throw as possible without the fingers of the pressure plate hitting the springs of the clutch disc (which is possible to achieve only by trial and error) and only as much pressure in the hydraulic system as it takes to move the clutch fork all the way before it hits the bellhousing stop.
In regard to the last part of the sentence above, if your "full disengagement point" is set too high and the the fork hits the bellhousing stop long before the clutch pedal is all the way to the floor, you're creating just unecessary additional pressure inside the system (since the fork can't travel any farther) - and that's how people end up blowing the seals in the slave and master cylinders or (if the seals can take the pressure) lifting the fork off the pivot ball and starting to pivot it against the bellhousing stop - and eventually snapping the fork in half.
Basically, the clutch should start engaging no higher than 1/4 of the total clutch pedal travel off the floor - which asures that the clutch is 100% disengaged with the pedal all the way to the floor without any, or just very little, excessive and uneeded additional pressure created in the process. If someone's clutch starts engaging in the middle of the total clutch pedal travel - and he keeps pressing the clutch pedal all the way to the floor, he'll either blow the seals of the slave and master cylinders and/or break the fork.
its all starting to make sense now, well my flywheel has been resurfaced twice that i know of, and there was alot of material taken off this time because a transmission parts place did a careless job and almost ruined it. so i may have to go with a bit thicker of a washer, say maybe .075-.080. but ill start off with what you suggested and do the trial and error thing.
J
J
It's a huge PITA since one must repeatedly drop and reinstall the tranny, but the work pays off in the long run. The easiest and fastest way to do it is removing the spark plugs and the MPI fuse, bolt the tranny and the starter on and turning the engine over with the starter (with the clutch pedal all the way to the floor). Once you get to the point where you hear the finger of the pressure plate hitting the clutch disc, you'll know you've gone too far and will have to drop the tranny one more time and take off the last washer you added. It may seem a bit extreme, but that's the only way of doing it. Some people bitch about the tranny being notchy, their synchros grinding or the disc getting glazed and slipping after just a few months without ever realizing that all those problems are directly related to incompletely disengaging clutch. I'd rather drop and reinstall the tranny even ten times in one weekend - than having to drop it in order to replace worn synchros and gears, glazed clutch disc or cracked flywheel as result of overheating due to constant friction in the near future. But that's just me. 
So is everyones tranny gonna need more washers than others? Is there any way around trial and error of shimming the pivot ball?
I have my block and tranny out since i modded my car all at once, is there anyway to check for correct shimming with the tranny and block out on a cherry picker or something? By the way, taboo is your pm box full? I pm'ed you yesterday, I am hoping that you got it.
I have my block and tranny out since i modded my car all at once, is there anyway to check for correct shimming with the tranny and block out on a cherry picker or something? By the way, taboo is your pm box full? I pm'ed you yesterday, I am hoping that you got it.
Yes, every car is different. What matters is how far from the bellhousing mating surface of the block the fingers of the pressure plate are once the clutch is installed - which depends on the flywheel machining, its step height, the thickness of the clutch disc, manufacturing tolerances of the crank, flywheel, clutch disc and pressure plate, etc. Then there are manufacturing tolerances of the bellhousing, the pivot ball, the fork and the t/o bearing and their wear. If the pivot ball and fork are worn and the flywheel was machined a couple of times and has the correct 0.610" step height for example, the pivot ball needs to be shimmed more than if a new flywheel, fork and pivot ball are used.bastard1g said:
There's no ther way around the trial and error method and you can't set the clutch and shim the pivot ball with the engine and tranny out since it needs to be done with the clutch fully compressed (= when the fork hits the bellhousing stop and the throw of the fork is fully maxed out) - which is impossible to do without the hydraulic system and the slave cylinder bolted on.
However, you can tell where you approximately snad just by looking at the fork - once the tranny is on. The end of the fork should be approximately in the middle of the square opening in the bellhousing. If the fork is tilted toward the passenger side, it won't have enough throw and the pivot ball needs to be shimmed. If the fork is tilted toward the driver side, the pivot ball was shimmed too much and the fork will over-extend (and the fingers of the PP will hit the clutch disc).
P.S.:
I haven't checked my PMs since yesterday, but I'll do it now.
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598 Posts
Thanks for the insight Taboo.
When i installed my 2600, i installed a new master cylinder, slave cylinder, clutch fork and ball at the same time. My old fork was definitely worn compared to the new one, i'd say there was about 1/16" difference in height at the tips. I also made sure the flywheel was machined to .609". I wound up having to adjust the master cylinder rod about as far out as possible to get the clutch pedal to disengage as high as possible, just past the halfway mark of the pedal travel from the floor.
I thought about welding another nut to the nut on the bracket that the rod threads into to give more adjustment, it seems like this would give the same effect of the extended slave cylinder rod. But the pedal seemed to engage high enough and it looked like a pain to remove the bracket.
There is a little pressure on the fork from the slave rod. It isn't very much at all though, i can push the rod back into the slave cylinder with one hand fairly easily. I don't think it's enough pressure to disengage the clutch and cause problems at all, and i highly doubt the pressure created from another 1/4" of length from the extended slave rod would be enough to cause any problems either.
Imo, the best way to get around having to shim the clutch ball is to use a new oem clutch fork and ball or Taboo's super heavy duty clutch fork and new ball along with a new flywheel or a flywheel that you know hasn't been resurfaced a bunch of times.
Here is a good pic of the clutch fork in the square opening to get an idea of how much you need to shim it, like Taboo was talking about. Also, Taboo, what is your opinion on removing or modifying the clutch line restrictor in the slave cylinder?
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When i installed my 2600, i installed a new master cylinder, slave cylinder, clutch fork and ball at the same time. My old fork was definitely worn compared to the new one, i'd say there was about 1/16" difference in height at the tips. I also made sure the flywheel was machined to .609". I wound up having to adjust the master cylinder rod about as far out as possible to get the clutch pedal to disengage as high as possible, just past the halfway mark of the pedal travel from the floor.
I thought about welding another nut to the nut on the bracket that the rod threads into to give more adjustment, it seems like this would give the same effect of the extended slave cylinder rod. But the pedal seemed to engage high enough and it looked like a pain to remove the bracket.
There is a little pressure on the fork from the slave rod. It isn't very much at all though, i can push the rod back into the slave cylinder with one hand fairly easily. I don't think it's enough pressure to disengage the clutch and cause problems at all, and i highly doubt the pressure created from another 1/4" of length from the extended slave rod would be enough to cause any problems either.
Imo, the best way to get around having to shim the clutch ball is to use a new oem clutch fork and ball or Taboo's super heavy duty clutch fork and new ball along with a new flywheel or a flywheel that you know hasn't been resurfaced a bunch of times.
Here is a good pic of the clutch fork in the square opening to get an idea of how much you need to shim it, like Taboo was talking about. Also, Taboo, what is your opinion on removing or modifying the clutch line restrictor in the slave cylinder?
There's one potential problem I feel should be addressed - when welding another nut on the C-bracket of the clutch lever:redawdturbo said:
Since the piston of the master cylinder gets pushed deeper and deeper inside the cylinder bore as one screws the adjustment rod out of the bracket, the piston might eventually end up being too deep inside the bore and the cylinder may reach its maximum stroke before the clutch pedal is all the way to the floor. Once the piston inside the cylinder is fully compressed, it goes nowhere, no additional pressure can be created and the clutch pedal can't be pressed any further. If someone continues pressing the clutch pedal even though it's stopped before the floor, he may start either twisting the rod of the clutch pedal or round the square hole in the clutch lever.
The restrictor is there to slow the pressure release as the clutch is getting engaged - which serves two purposes:redawdturbo said:
1) It makes the clutch engagement a bit smoother in hands of less experienced drivers and
2) reduces the shock on the driveline when someone dumps the clutch - which might otherwise damage the center differential, the transfer case or the axles (= resulting in warranty claims).
I removed the restrictor since I like the more "direct" feel of the clutch and being more in control of the engagement process. It's basically like a difference between driving with 4-puck disc with solid hub and sprung street clutch disc. The clutch gets a bit more grabby and snappier - which can lead to more broken driveline parts in case someone likes to side-step the clutch pedal between shifts. I never side-step the clutch and feel that even the fast release after shifts provides the necessary cushioning that can be varied with the speed of the engagement. The fact that I've never trashed one single transfer case, broken the spider gears of the center differential or even one single axle (while running 12's and 1.6X 60's with the 3-bolt rear end - 'til the day I switched to 4-bolt) has convinced me that I've been doing something right - when it comes to driving.
redawdturbo said:Thanks for the insight Taboo.
Imo, the best way to get around having to shim the clutch ball is to use a new oem clutch fork and ball or Taboo's super heavy duty clutch fork and new ball along with a new flywheel or a flywheel that you know hasn't been resurfaced a bunch of times.
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All we have to do is buy a new clutch fork, pivot ball and flywheel and you dont have to shim anything? Its a lil pricey but that sounds alot better than shimming.
it sounded simple enough, but when i got in there, it looks like when i start turning the adjustment rod, all it does is change the postion of the clutch pedal. it doesnt seem to go deeper into the master cylinder. i couldnt even turn it without moving the clutch pedal, it either went up or down depending on which way i turned the rod.Taboo said:
am i supposed to leave the locknut locked?
when youre sitting in the seat, lets pretend that the dash is out and you can actually see the adjustment rod, which way do i turn it, clockwise or counter?
J
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