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Taboo said:
which may be the reason why the AWD is able to keep up with the FWD fairly well through the first 3.5 gears.


Damn, I got jipped.... My car only caem with 5 gears and they're 1-2-3-4-5.... I didn't get any half gears... Is this a JDM tranny you're talking about???

;)


AWD Owns jooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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EvoGun said:
On a side note, I wonder what shep will run this year, with the magnus dogbox?
Who knows... :dunno: The guy is a freaking magician. If he could eliminate just one shift and add a bit of HP, I have no doubts he'd be banging on the 7-second doors, but with his "one has to take it slow in order to go fast" motto, I bet he'll try to get used to the dog-box and squeeze the most out of it - before resorting to replacing the stock glass with Lexan and the body panels with fiberglass. The potential of running sevens with the unibody and AWD platform is definitely there, though. :)
 
i have owned both FWD and AWD dsms, and i would give the AWD the win. you can go faster in the 1/4 with less mods than FWD. if you check dsmtimes there isnt a category for going from a roll, you want to get in the record book you have to go from a stop
 
Boosted3000GT said:
Damn, I got jipped.... My car only caem with 5 gears and they're 1-2-3-4-5.... I didn't get any half gears... Is this a JDM tranny you're talking about???
He, he... :D I meant it "RPM-wise", of course. I should've said "the first 3 + the first half of the 4th gear"... :)
 
someone more informed of drivetrain components please chime in, but an article I read a few weeks ago about rwd vs fwd vs awd said that although typical losses in awd and rwd are higher than fwd, in fourth gear most rwd cars and some awd cars have very little drivetrain loss. If someone has read the same thing or has a clue of what im talking about please chime in.
 
bigjangin said:
in fourth gear most rwd cars and some awd cars have very little drivetrain loss
That's not true and can't be true for one simple reason: The torque of the engine is multiplied by the gearing. The parasitic drag of the transfer case, driveshaft, rear differential and rear axles is RPM dependent. Since there's always a certain amount of slip angle between the front and rear differential, the slip angle is increased with the RPM of the wheels with increasing speed of the car. Since the ouput shaft of the transimission generates less torque in higher gears while the mass of the transfer case gears, driveshaft, rear diff gears and rear axles stays the same, it takes more torque of the engine - when multiplied by the higher gears - to accelerate the same mass. Therefore, the faster the car goes and the higher the gear, the more driveline loss there's going to be. However, the driveline loss is not some static number and actually changes with torque of the engine. Since the gearing and the mass of the driveline components don't change, they also generate more driveline loss of engine with less torque (and visa versa) under the same load (= while the mass of the car and the driveline components is being accelerated).
 
Audi definitely has the AWD track car thing down, more so then any other manufacturer. I wish Mitsubishi could afford to make/back an Evolution tarmac team in Rolex cup, Grand Am or whatever. They (Audi) were they only group to be banned from britisish touring car (having AWD banned all together) in favor of FWD.

Honda, of course, has the whole FWD racing thing down. It was not uncommon to see the Realtime Acuras dominate RWD BMWs, and Lexus' in the US touring car series. These cars being the closest to what you and I can own and drive on the street.

Both are , I think, exceptions to a general rule. RWD will still be the classic, best setup for road racing. If F1 (the best road racing cars in the world, right?) had no rules, regulations or limitiations, would the teams switch to some form of AWD?
 
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Taboo said:
That's not true and can't be true for one simple reason: The torque of the engine is multiplied by the gearing. The parasitic drag of the transfer case, driveshaft, rear differential and rear axles is RPM dependent. Since there's always a certain amount of slip angle between the front and rear differential, the slip angle is increased with the RPM of the wheels with increasing speed of the car. Since the ouput shaft of the transimission generates less torque in higher gears while the mass of the transfer case gears, driveshaft, rear diff gears and rear axles stays the same, it takes more torque of the engine - when multiplied by the higher gears - to accelerate the same mass. Therefore, the faster the car goes and the higher the gear, the more driveline loss there's going to be. However, the driveline loss is not some static number and actually changes with torque of the engine. Since the gearing and the mass of the driveline components don't change, they also generate more driveline loss of engine with less torque (and visa versa) under the same load (= while the mass of the car and the driveline components is being accelerated).
Thats a really good point, but another thing to consider is that the parasitic loss will decrease as the rate of acceleration decreases. A faster accelerating gear would have more load on the gears and cause more friction. Also the drive shaft and rear diff might have less at a higher speed cause the rate of acceleration is less.
Make sence?
-Dallas J
 
GPTourer said:
Audi definitely has the AWD track car thing down, more so then any other manufacturer. I wish Mitsubishi could afford to make/back an Evolution tarmac team in Rolex cup, Grand Am or whatever. They (Audi) were they only group to be banned from britisish touring car (having AWD banned all together) in favor of FWD.

Honda, of course, has the whole FWD racing thing down. It was not uncommon to see the Realtime Acuras dominate RWD BMWs, and Lexus' in the US touring car series. These cars being the closest to what you and I can own and drive on the street.

Both are , I think, exceptions to a general rule. RWD will still be the classic, best setup for road racing. If F1 (the best road racing cars in the world, right?) had no rules, regulations or limitiations, would the teams switch to some form of AWD?
The F1 cars have a distinc advantage to why they dont use AWD. Its the insane down force they develope. If 2 cars are allowed to have the same HP and weight the AWD car should in most cases be superior in the Handling arena given that they are both set up properly. The problem is that AWD cars are always given a huge weight penalty but they still manage to keep up, wonder why ;)

-Dallas J
 
GPTourer said:
Audi definitely has the AWD track car thing down, more so then any other manufacturer. I wish Mitsubishi could afford to make/back an Evolution tarmac team in Rolex cup, Grand Am or whatever. They (Audi) were they only group to be banned from britisish touring car (having AWD banned all together) in favor of FWD.

Honda, of course, has the whole FWD racing thing down. It was not uncommon to see the Realtime Acuras dominate RWD BMWs, and Lexus' in the US touring car series. These cars being the closest to what you and I can own and drive on the street.

Both are , I think, exceptions to a general rule. RWD will still be the classic, best setup for road racing. If F1 (the best road racing cars in the world, right?) had no rules, regulations or limitiations, would the teams switch to some form of AWD?
Hmm, very good point. F1 is not a real car though, in any way shape or form, point taken though. They are MR, which is alot different than FR. At the level of F1 weight becomes a stifling issue, down to the grams. I dont think an awd drivetrain could survive those 16k+ rpm shifts either, hell mine cant stand 6.5-7k shifts:D .

I would like to point out that there also isnt even .0001% the research into awd that there is into rwd. Every heavily researched form of racing (formula ford, formula 3000, formula 1, nascar, NHRA funny cars, all tube chassis cars) is rwd, so no research goes into awd, I dont know if thats a factor or not, I just was pointing it out. Perhaps if the research all went into awd...but thats just a what if...I think all of the above mentioned programs and cars are rwd for a reason, and have been rwd throughout history for that reason.....I just dont know the exact reason. AWD is kind of like a revolution on a small scale, 4x4 has been out since WWII but actual full time awd cars have only been on the timeline for a very short period of time. Hmm, kinda weird thinking about all of this.....Anyone know the first awd car? I bet it was an audi, but I dont know.

ANYWAYS....back to topic, but I dont think there is anymore topic....the newb has been thoroughly schooled by taboo once again, and we have nothing left to chat about....sniffle....sniffle....

On an ultra side note, ive snagged a few 1.7x 60 fts on a near stock dsm, so 1.8x and running 11's isnt that good?:dunno: If I had the power and was running 11's I think I would be cutting 1.6x, maybe some 1.5x? I am just talking out loud, I dont actually know for a fact. Anyone running 11's car to share their 60fts?

Gosh, we only got to page 3 before ya'll killed our opposition :realmad: :crackit: :D
 
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Dallas J said:
The F1 cars have a distinc advantage to why they dont use AWD. Its the insane down force they develope...The problem is that AWD cars are always given a huge weight penalty but they still manage to keep up, wonder why ;)
-Dallas J
I thought that somewhere along the seventies in either CanAm or F1 someone developed a fan car that literally sucked the car onto the track and that the car was AWD also. If it wasn't, it got banned anyway after it destroyed the competition. I thought maybe since the F1 engineers couldn't use fans, they were forced not to use AWD either - but had developed their aerospace technology to create cars that had the tenacious grip of an AWD without the penalty of the weight?

And aren't the dominating Lemans cars from Audi, the RS6's or whatever MR AWD?
 
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And aren't the dominating Lemans cars from Audi, the RS6's or whatever MR AWD?
Anyone else remember that Audi racer coming over a rise and getting air under the car? It did just about a complete vertical 360 and came down all wrong. Very painful to watch...
 
GPTourer said:
I thought that somewhere along the seventies in either CanAm or F1 someone developed a fan car that literally sucked the car onto the track and that the car was AWD also. If it wasn't, it got banned anyway after it destroyed the competition. I thought maybe since the F1 engineers couldn't use fans, they were forced not to use AWD either - but had developed their aerospace technology to create cars that had the tenacious grip of an AWD without the penalty of the weight?

And aren't the dominating Lemans cars from Audi, the RS6's or whatever MR AWD?
Im pretty sure that AWD isnt allowed in IRC, Indy, or F1. The main advantage of AWD in the racing circuits is the fact that you can get on the gas earlier in the corners cause you split the acceleration traction between all 4 wheels and use all of all the tires traction instead of the side/forward traction on the rear and only side in front. So if youve seen a traction circle you would see how it would help to take the forward acceleration and split it between the oven.
Now if a car had the same weight and straight line acceleration but faster corner exit speeds it would dominate and that why they add weight to try to slow it in the corners and straights.

-Dallas J
 
Clean-up on aisle 3...

OK... after a little work, all references to Red95DSM are gone from this thread. It would have been easier for me to just nuke the whole thread, but I took the time to do it selectively so you guys could keep your discussion going.

So please keep it on-topic from here. The troll is gone, 'nuff said. Hope you all had fun poking him with a stick while he was still here. ;) :tat:
 
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Dallas J said:
Im pretty sure that AWD isnt allowed in IRC, Indy, or F1. The main advantage of AWD in the racing circuits is the fact that you can get on the gas earlier in the corners cause you split the acceleration traction between all 4 wheels and use all of all the tires traction instead of the side/forward traction on the rear and only side in front. So if youve seen a traction circle you would see how it would help to take the forward acceleration and split it between the oven.
Now if a car had the same weight and straight line acceleration but faster corner exit speeds it would dominate and that why they add weight to try to slow it in the corners and straights.

-Dallas J
well yeah, but why not allow it. IF you've got billion dollar budgets in Formula One anyway, why not let them produce AWD cars? If everybody uses it there would be no need to penalize anyone. I'm thinking that even still AWD's tend to push more then a RWD car will and when you've got "cars" shaped like upside down airplanes made out of carbon fiber, you get the grip of AWd with the nimbleness of MR RWD without the weight and complexity of AWD like the Formula One guys do it.
 
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10 min edit owned me.

tskuba circuit***

not skuba (LOL), and its not 1.55, it was just 55 secs, and the top secret skyline only managed a 57 sec run, I cant imagine our wee 4g63 getting 2 secs on top secrets pride and joy.
 
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GPTourer said:
well yeah, but why not allow it. IF you've got billion dollar budgets in Formula One anyway, why not let them produce AWD cars? If everybody uses it there would be no need to penalize anyone. I'm thinking that even still AWD's tend to push more then a RWD car will and when you've got "cars" shaped like upside down airplanes made out of carbon fiber, you get the grip of AWd with the nimbleness of MR RWD without the weight and complexity of AWD like the Formula One guys do it.
They wont make AWD cars cause of a few reasons. 1, RWD is working great for them and they have so much technology into it right now. All motorsports racing was founded on RWD racing and AWD is new to the arena. They would have to fully engineer an entire system to use and that would up the cost of everything and as it sits right now its getting so expensive and now the people with the money are the people win. So the smaller groups are just there as numbers for the race. 2, The weight it would add would be hard to take away from other areas.

As for the second part, even though they have as much down force as they have the car still has its limit. The rear tires around a corner are still pushed harder than the front cause they have to hold the side load and acceleration load. Remember that you have to accelerate through the corner and brake before. If that acceleration force can be split perfectly and be infinately adjustable then you could make a car be exactly neutral and any throttle input.

Just as an example why do you think the AWD Rally cars rule rally over RWD? They have traction too, just less. When you reach that limit on pavement the same thing will apply. Also they have tarmac rallys and guess who wins those.

-Dallas J
 
3 pages of input and still the fact that AWD or RWD is the better set up. Can we all chime in and say na or yea. I think a vote would have answered this faster and more efficent.


ITS all about the thermal efficency!!!


Its all about wieght vs torque!!


We now return you to your disccusion.


Thanks
 
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