DSMTalk Forums: Mitsubishi Eclipse, Plymouth Laser, and Eagle Talon Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
101 - 120 of 375 Posts
Eighty9tsi said:
B) There is not enough interest or cars for that matter to participate in an awd class only. By that I mean what other cars out there are awd and worthy?
Maybe with the addition of the Evo and the STi, more and more people will be interested in dragging with AWD. Since we're dealing with a completly custom built car, it doesn't really matter what the fiberglass shell on top is. Since it is perfectly okay for a Camry Solara with a 2JZ-GTE and RWD to dominate Pro RWD class at import drags, then somebody with an AWD chassis, SR20DET powered car with a Sentra shell on top should be fine too.
 
Save
I don't think it's as much a lack of interest as it's just the lack of cars to participate in said event. Like I said earlier the Honda guys are trying to utilize the CRV AWD system on civics and such. the interest is there for it's obvious advantages, just no cars to use.
 
bigjangin said:
once you get into very high speeds, weight matters less and overall whp matters a lot more.
I had thought kinda the same thing.
I thought the difference in weight between 2 cars with similar power made itself most apparent from 0 - ~80-90mph, and after that the weight difference isn't as much of a factor as hp is. Once again gearing might play a larger roll here too. Racing from a high speed roll seems similar to a side by side dyno pull.


Supras are notably heavier (~500lbs) than an AWD dsm and alot of other sports cars, but they are known to be a highway killer. Could the 6 speed gearbox helps give the supra an advantage? Of course 3.0L and 2 turbo's doesn't hurt either.

About the drivetrain loss of AWD, here are some conversion factors to get flywheel hp of different drivetrain cars on different dyno's. You multiply the dyno meaurement by the conversion factor given to achieve flywheel hp.

New Zealand DynoPak - 1.20 (2wd manual), 1.23 (2wd auto), 1.33 (4wd manual), 1.40 (4wd auto)
Australian\UK DynoDynamics - 1.30 (2wd manual), 1.35 (2wd auto), 1.50 (4wd manual), 1.60 (4wd auto)
USA DynoJet - 1.17 (2wd manual) 1.20 (2wd auto)

Not sure how accurate these #'s are, but the lowest difference would be that the AWD manual loses an additional 13% of power through the drivetrain(on a Dyno pack anyway). Seems pretty high to me, and some AWD people have dyno'd on both 2wd and 4wd dynojets and got the same hp. It also seems like any drivetrain loss would remain constant regardless of speed.

Since it is perfectly okay for a Camry Solara with a 2JZ-GTE and RWD to dominate Pro RWD class at import drags, then somebody with an AWD chassis, SR20DET powered car with a Sentra shell on top should be fine too.
I don't think you can do much better than a solid rear end with monster slicks at that power level, for the best combination of traction, reliability, and cost effectiveness.

AWD seems to have traction advantages up to a certain point and under certain conditions in drag racing. John Shepherd dominated the street class for 2 years before they changed the rules about street radial tires. Back then he was running low 10's to high 9's. After they changed the rules about the tires, he began to get his lunch a little from the rwd guys. He could no longer "ease it out of the hole", and had to make more power. Now it looks like traction for him is becoming an issue, even though he has the mighty AWD.

He's cutting 1.3x 60ft's, while the rwd competition is cutting
1.1x 60ft's, or possibly even better. 2 tenths in the first 60 ft of the 1/4 can be a lifetime in drag racing, as well as the deciding factor in the race. I believe the best FWD 60 ft is a 1.48 on the DSM Times list.
 
Save
The reason no one has a AWD tube chassis PRO drag car is cause of one very big obsticle. You cant heat up your tires in a AWD car to handle the power all the way through 1st and 2nd on a 6sec car. Even 11sec AWD cars have traction problems, imagine a 7 second car. When you cant use Slicks cause you cant heat them up enough to get enough traction then you kinda hit an E.T. wall.

-Dallas J
 
redawdturbo said:
I don't think you can do much better than a solid rear end with monster slicks at that power level, for the best combination of traction, reliability, and cost effectiveness.

AWD seems to have traction advantages up to a certain point and under certain conditions in drag racing.
I was waiting on someone with an AWD to say that. That's pretty much been my point all along. AWD is awesome for street cars, and semi-regular tires. But there comes a point that in the purpose built dragging world where AWD is a hindrance.

Dallas J said
The reason no one has a AWD tube chassis PRO drag car is cause of one very big obsticle. You cant heat up your tires in a AWD car to handle the power all the way through 1st and 2nd on a 6sec car. Even 11sec AWD cars have traction problems, imagine a 7 second car. When you cant use Slicks cause you cant heat them up enough to get enough traction then you kinda hit an E.T. wall.


Interesting. I didn't think of it that way. I figured with enough power even four tires could be lit off after a trip through the water box. So you think its impossible for any AWD car to ever reach the the level of the times set by the Pro FWD crew? What is it like a low 7.xx by Lisa Kubo?
 
Save
GPTourer said:
Interesting. I didn't think of it that way. I figured with enough power even four tires could be lit off after a trip through the water box.
I'm showing my age, but who was it; TV Tommy Ivo or somebody who lit off all four just about the entire length of the strip? I recall four Buick V8's in the chassis...

Image
 
Hehe, nice find Jon Lane...Thats pretty sweet.

But the issue is not that AWD cant burn them off, its that they cant stay still when doing it. FWD and RWD just locks the other set of wheels and when it starts pushing then they know to stop. AWD will just do an impressive display of power half way down the strip, and by the time they reverse back 1/8th-1/4 mile the tires a cooled back down and the guy he's racing is aggriveted from waiting.

-Dallas J
 
That is badass! Do you know what that thing ran?

Brent Rau used to do AWD burnouts from the water box all the way to the staging lights. Pretty sick.

I was waiting on someone with an AWD to say that. That's pretty much been my point all along. AWD is awesome for street cars, and semi-regular tires. But there comes a point that in the purpose built dragging world where AWD is a hindrance.
AWD does pretty good in the snow and rain too.:)

To my knowledge Lisa Kubo's best is a 9.1 @ 157 on a 1.4 60 ft. Papadakis has went like 8.1 @180 on a 1.3360ft.:eek: However he runs alcohol, tube chassis,ect ect.
 
Save
redawdturbo said:
AWD does pretty good in the snow and rain too.:)
To my knowledge Lisa Kubo's best is a 9.1 @ 157 on a 1.4 60 ft. Papadakis has went like 8.1 @180 on a 1.3360ft.:eek: However he runs alcohol, tube chassis,ect ect.
Just a quick search in the NDRA times shows a high 7's run for Lisa in the Pro Outlaw FWD class.

No argument for AWD performance in rain and snow, but it is funny how when it does snow down here once every 6-10 years or so, I see more 4WD trucks upside down and stuck in ditches then I see cars. More or less the people are unfamiliar with the conditions, but I imagine they get a little bit of a complex thinking they can do ANYTHING and drive normal speeds, just because of their AWD.

As far as Steph running alky, tube and so on, my point was for an AWD driver to do the same thing run even better times. But it looks as if even the lowly FWD setup has an advantage over AWD when it comes to no holds barred drag racing. Also someone can come up with a way to disconnect driveshafts on the fly.
 
Save
GPTourer said:
Also someone can come up with a way to disconnect driveshafts on the fly.
Whoops, hit post before I was ready. I meant, unless someone could come up with a way to electronically control differentials from the driver seat, and a car could do a front diff burnout followed by a rear wheel burnout in an AWD car and then launch, maybe the slicks problem could be alleviated.
 
Save
I believe that 7 second pass came from Lisa driving the new saturn. Remember she hasnt been driving the honda for over a year now. The Pro FWD guy to watch is Steph Papadakis.

I wonder if you could get the skyline to do a RWD burnout, then activate the front diff and just use the front wheels as an added pull.

-Dallas J
 
Jon Lane said:
The only thing that's missing is "Can your FWD do THIS?" :D :D :D .

That's a bad-ass demonstration of some really serious engineering right there :rudolph: . Do you know what numbers the maniacs ran with that monster by chance?
 
I'm pretty sure you can do the rear wheel only burn on the skyline, last months Turbo mag had the fastest street tire skyline and the pic they had for it was RWD burn only. they also had an update within the article the guy driving broke into the 7's after the original article was written......on dot approved street tires
 
As far as Steph running alky, tube and so on, my point was for an AWD driver to do the same thing run even better times. But it looks as if even the lowly FWD setup has an advantage over AWD when it comes to no holds barred drag racing.
I think your kind of missing the point. If FWD has an advantage over AWD, then why is it in the pro import quick class that the AWD's have to take a 700lb weight penalty? The FWD's only have to weigh 1800lbs, while the awd's have to weigh in at 2500lbs. Also, the big$$ custom tube chassis FWD's are cutting 60 ft's on par with the top unibody AWD DSM's, some of which use DOT tires. AWD isn't known as "the unfair advantage" for nothing.;)

It's not that FWD has an advantage over AWD once you start to get close to Pro Stock times, it's that neither are as effective as RWD. You could build an AWD car to perform at that level, but it wouldn't make sense too. If you notice when those cars launch out of the hole, the front tires are off the ground well through the 60 ft mark. What good is AWD gonna do when the fronts are in the air spinning?:dunno: Even still AWD would have the advantage, because it also has RWD.:)
 
Save
redawdturbo said:
I think your kind of missing the point. If FWD has an advantage over AWD, then why is it in the pro import quick class that the AWD's have to take a 700lb weight penalty? The FWD's only have to weigh 1800lbs, while the awd's have to weigh in at 2500lbs. Also, the big$$ custom tube chassis FWD's are cutting 60 ft's on par with the top unibody AWD DSM's, some of which use DOT tires. AWD isn't known as "the unfair advantage" for nothing.;)

It's not that FWD has an advantage over AWD once you start to get close to Pro Stock times, it's that neither are as effective as RWD. You could build an AWD car to perform at that level, but it wouldn't make sense too. If you notice when those cars launch out of the hole, the front tires are off the ground well through the 60 ft mark. What good is AWD gonna do when the fronts are in the air spinning?:dunno: Even still AWD would have the advantage, because it also has RWD.:)
RWD's lift and hold the front tires for intentional weight re-distribution, which is an unknown strategy for the front-motored DSM AWD race car. Wheelies are a conscious, intentional design compensation for the RWD's natural traction deficiency. In other words, if racing evolution somehow brings the AWD to the very top of straight line racing, that historical weight bias and shift will go out the window, maybe along with conventional burnouts. I don’t see any reason why, in concept anyway, AWD couldn’t win in top fuel either.

Or...could an unlimited AWD electric racer, picking up power from a track on the strip, make 10,000hp? 3 sec ÂĽ miles?

But with this message we still get back to, again, the parameters we wish to place on the cars and the discussion. If I were going all-out, I'd go RWD, and so would you. Top Fuel rails are the top of the food chain but that's only in one category: Unlimited everything. And yes, RWD – including wheelies and race-losing loss of traction a percentage of the time – are still, so far, part of the winning strategy.

Somewhere in the next few categories down we have to handicap AWD's to keep them "fair." And someplace down a few more categories, at the street level, we're still favoring AWD's, the inherent limitations of the DSM's tranny and limited displacement notwithstanding. Put another way, if your 1000hp Supra or Lingenfelter Vette were AWD, they'd automatically dominate the street (and the street classes.)
 
Dallas J said:
I believe that 7 second pass came from Lisa driving the new saturn. Remember she hasnt been driving the honda for over a year now. The Pro FWD guy to watch is Steph Papadakis.
Oh I never said it was a Honda. Saturn or anything, I'm just saying she did it in a FWD car.
redawdturbo said
I think your kind of missing the point. If FWD has an advantage over AWD, then why is it in the pro import quick class that the AWD's have to take a 700lb weight penalty? The FWD's only have to weigh 1800lbs, while the awd's have to weigh in at 2500lbs.
Mr. Lane put it best with his post as his drag knowledge far exceeds mine. I am still not saying FWD is better, but when you get to the point of a Pro FWD car class, where there are no AWD cars to be penalized, no specified street tire to use, the FWD cars run faster times then any AWD car. I was just saying if someone built an unlimited "Pro AWD" car, could they then beat those times, but apparently not because of the inability to heat the slicks.
 
Save
RWD's lift and hold the front tires for intentional weight re-distribution, which is an unknown strategy for the front-motored DSM AWD race car. Wheelies are a conscious, intentional design compensation for the RWD's natural traction deficiency. In other words, if racing evolution somehow brings the AWD to the very top of straight line racing, that historical weight bias and shift will go out the window, maybe along with conventional burnouts.
Any car AWD,FWD, RWD has traction deficiency when launching out of the hole. It is simple physics that the weight is going to transfer to the rear, i don't think there is much you can do about that, except take advantage of it. This is the major obstacle for FWD.

At the all out level, i think a completely neutral biased AWD car would have less traction than a well setup RWD car. The awd car would wind up being a poorly setup FWD and RWD car at the same time. Where the RWD would obviously hookup, the awd would be likely to spin all 4 (much like in the picture of the car you posted), because it isn't taking advantage of the weight transfer to help the rear tires hold traction.

There comes a point when your making so much horsepower that your main problem is getting it to the ground, and more importantly, within the first 60ft.
 
Save
with a more advanced awd system that could split power between front and rear as one spins, it could have an advantage over rwd. At the launch all 4 would get power and as the front end lifted the rear would receive most if not all of the power.
 
I was just saying if someone built an unlimited "Pro AWD" car, could they then beat those times, but apparently not because of the inability to heat the slicks.

Even still AWD would have the advantage, because it also has RWD.
With enough money anything is possible, perhaps a indestructable AWD system with intelligence like the Skyline uses. It would basically be launching like a RWD though, and there is no doubt that the PRO RWD cars are faster than the PRO FWD cars, so i see no reason why a PRO AWD car would have any problems beating the PRO FWD times. But like i said before it wouldn't make alot of sense to do it.

Jon Lane, do you know what kind of 1/4 mile times that car in your picture ran?
 
Save
101 - 120 of 375 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.