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redawdturbo said:
With enough money anything is possible, perhaps a indestructable AWD system with intelligence like the Skyline uses. It would basically be launching like a RWD though, and there is no doubt that the PRO RWD cars are faster than the PRO FWD cars, so i see no reason why a PRO AWD car would have any problems beating the PRO FWD times. But like i said before it wouldn't make alot of sense to do it.
What do you mean, it doesn't make any sense? People said it doesn't make sense to try to make a FWD car fast either, that they'd never break 12's, then 11's then 10's then so on and so forth. Then there are those who say its pointless to try to make an import fast. The whole idea of the sport and the competition is to try, of course its easy for me to say because I'm not footing the bill. But the technology may indeed trickle down to street cars, and its fun to watch.

Or are you just saying that PRO RWD>PRO AWD>PRO FWD so there's no need to create another class of cars that aren't any faster then what's already available? Even still, unless someone tries, we'd never know. And until someone tries and is succesful with it, the assumption that PRO AWD would be quicker/faster then PRO FWD is just that.
 
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People said it doesn't make sense to try to make a FWD car fast either, that they'd never break 12's, then 11's then 10's then so on and so forth. Then there are those who say its pointless to try to make an import fast. The whole idea of the sport and the competition is to try, of course its easy for me to say because I'm not footing the bill. But the technology may indeed trickle down to street cars, and its fun to watch.

Or are you just saying that PRO RWD>PRO AWD>PRO FWD so there's no need to create another class of cars that aren't any faster then what's already available?
I don't believe i said anything like that. To clarify, my opinion that a PRO AWD car could run faster than the PRO FWD cars is based on the fact that the AWD car could be set up to have the same advantage (using the natural weight transfer to help the tires hold traction) that the PRO RWD cars obviously have over the PRO FWD cars. However, at this level, i don't think the AWD is going to give you a traction advantage over RWD.

The traction advantage is obvious by looking at the 60ft times, and the fact that in the PRO COMP class all the cars are RWD, where FWD to RWD conversions are allowed. Pretty simple stuff.

And until someone tries and is succesful with it, the assumption that PRO AWD would be quicker/faster then PRO FWD is just that.
Do you mind sharing your opinions, with facts to back them up, as to why a PRO AWD car couldn't achieve better 1/4 mile times than a PRO FWD car, other than not being able to do a burnout to heat the slicks?
 
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redawdturbo said:
Do you mind sharing your opinions, with facts to back them up, as to why a PRO AWD car couldn't achieve better 1/4 mile times than a PRO FWD car, other than not being able to do a burnout to heat the slicks?
I don't have any opinions, I would just rather see it proven to me rather then make the assumtion that because AWD is better at the street car/street tire level, that it is better at the Pro Outlaw level. I posted the question to the board and the answers so far have been weight transfer and inability to lighting slicks as a hindrance for an AWD car (at that level). I'd love to see a import Pro AWD car outperform all, but I can't just assume that it would.
 
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GPTourer said:
I posted the question to the board and the answers so far have been weight transfer and inability to lighting slicks as a hindrance for an AWD car (at that level).
Perhaps your a little confused here. The weight transfer to the rear would be something the PRO AWD car could take advantage of, as the rear wheels are driven also. The weight transfer is a hindrince for the PRO FWD car.
 
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Whoa, weight transfer is a hindrance for FWD, really?:rolleyes:
No, I'm not confused. I would just like to see a Pro AWD category, but not make assumptions on what they would do.
 
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No, I'm not confused. I would just like to see a Pro AWD category, but not make assumptions on what they would do.
My apoligies then, for giving imput on your original question.....

GPTourer said:
So you think its impossible for any AWD car to ever reach the the level of the times set by the Pro FWD crew?
:dunno:
 
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I remember reading that article the month it came out when i used to have a subscription to SSC. The GSX kicked ass all over the place. Whoever owns that GSX is a bad mother%!&*#!;)
 
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there is one distinct physical reason why an AWD might not be as fast as a FWD. Now, you're going to get better launch and traction with AWD most of the time, but if you can match that launch with a FWD with slicks, then the FWD will win easily. The reason is simple: friction. Indy cars have one drive wheel as opposed to 2 or 4 for a reason. There is less power loss due to friction, and they dont have to worry about launching (at 200 mph traction isn't a problem, one drive wheel is all they need). You always lose power when you distribute it to the wheels. A FWD has less power loss than a RWD which has less power loss than an AWD. (each wheel distribution makes you lose about the same power, but the added distance of going to the rear wheels make you lose more power). in addition to losing power just by distributing the power, you always lose power due to friction between the wheels and the ground. if you have 4 wheels with power, they are all losing power due to friction, thus you lose 2x as much power through friction in AWD as opposed to FWD in addition to losing more than 2x as much power due to power distribution. this difference in power becomes increasingly apparent and more and more important as the cars become more and more powerful, as is the case in the Pro classes. RWD is faster than FWD because FWD cannot match the traction/launch ability that RWD have, and the additional power loss that comes from diverting the power to the rear wheels is minimal (im talking with street cars, in which the tranny is in the front). Top fuel has their transmissions in the back right with the wheels so that's why they are the fastest things out there. the best street setup is, of course, awd, because the engines won't be putting out the insane amounts of power that make the differences in power loss be overcome by the differences in traction ability. and you're not running slicks on the street, so a fwd or rwd will have more problems getting traction than at the track. But it pro classes, RWD is definately the way to go, and AWD won't be as fast because they don't have as much power and they have more friction. The inability to run slicks is minimal, they can still get great 60' times.
 
cdstalon said:
While I do like this thread, I don't think it's really been based in much besides BS (well, starting with the original thread). There's nothing really scientific about it. That being said, I'll add in some of my BS =).

I don't think the main reason the AWD starts losing it's advantage is because of a difference in weight transfer and the "power not going to the rear wheels" as acceleration drops. To keep a car leaned back like that, you would have to accelerate at an increasing rate, as you do when you go through a gear. But, once you get to a high enough gear, that is bound to stop and you'll be accelerating at a decelerating rate on average. The main reason AWD lose top end is b/c of the additional weight of the drivetrain components.

I also think that the MPH differences b/w a FWD/AWD are kind of exacerbated. For instance, let's assume we have this 13.9@106 car (FWD) v. a 13.1 @ 106 (AWD). So, the FWD guys would say, see, we can hang with you top end and so the cars must be making similiar WHP. But then, you have to remember that the FWD got an additional .8 seconds to accelerate.... if the GSX gets that extra almost full second, he may pick up another 5 mph or so. Just something ot marinate on.
im not sure if thats how it works, i think you look at the distance, if youre talking about those 2 cars going from a roll

an AWD that runs 13.1@106 and a gst that runs 13.9@106, going from a 40mph roll. If the gsx traped the same, but faster time, it has more HP obviously. A better example would be:

GST - 13.9@106
GSX - 13.1@103

The gst hit 106mph in the same distance that the gsx hit 103mph, its not the et, its the distance i think

For example. I had a focus turbo, that trapped
107-108mph but only ran high 13's at the track.

I raced a bunch of evo's and STI's from a roll(freeway at about 50mph) and i pulled ALL of them.

Those same cars at the same track ran 13.1-13.4 all day, but trapping only 101-103mph

So as you can see, you cant really say the GSX did it with .8 seconds to spare, you cant look at it that way.

Now if you do have a gsx and gst that trap the same, but different times, obviously they are a bad match, the gsx clearly has more power.

I see sti's running 13.0@102mph and i see supras running 13.0@115mph, lol...on the freeway, the supra would MURDER the sti
 
btw...i love AWD's and i love the feeling you get when you launch it, unfortunately ,you can never feel ALL the power like that in a FWD

And the first 2 gears are the best gears to feel the power in, if you can hook up.

BUT, most of my races are done from at least some sort of roll, if you plan on ALWAYS getting that cool feeling and launching hard from a stop, youre gonna be breaking ALOT of parts VERY frequently

I know if i had a AWD i would just always get in trouble, so the gst at least keeps me in check, i feel alot better punching it from 40mph then from a stock, its too violent and too stressful on the car.

I always run into evo8 and GSX guys who pull up to me, drop the hammer and sit there at redline, bouncing off of it, and then just dropping it, OUCH....it hurts me, and im not even in the car, lol
 
nazthug said:
an AWD that runs 13.1@106 and a gst that runs 13.9@106, going from a 40mph roll. If the gsx traped the same, but faster time, it has more HP obviously.
The trap speed is based on the last 66 feet of the 1/4 mile and reflects the car's horsepower in relation to its weight. If two cars of the same weight produce identical trap speed, they also produce identical HP despite of their different ETs. AWD cars tend to trap lower (if compared to FWD cars producing the same HP) due to their greater weight.
nazthug said:
if you plan on ALWAYS getting that cool feeling and launching hard from a stop, youre gonna be breaking ALOT of parts VERY frequently
Do you base your statements on personal experience or just your own assumptions :dunno: ? Let me count how many parts I've broken in the last 13 years of countless hard launches: Transmissions - 0, transfer cases - 0, rear differentials - 0, 3-bolt axles - 0, 4-bolt axles - 0, other driveline parts - 0. Oh, and that's on 11-second car launched at 6K RPM and pulling 1.6-second 60' times. It's all about driving.
nazthug said:
I know if i had a AWD i would just always get in trouble, so the gst at least keeps me in check, i feel alot better punching it from 40mph then from a stock, its too violent and too stressful on the car.
It's not the FWD that keeps you in check, but lack of horsepower. Try to punch 500HP FWD from 40mph roll - and see what happens... :D
 
i've punched my focus from 50mph and it did the same thing my gst does in 1st gear... :)


Thats why i somemtimes wish i had an AWD

BTW, just because you've launched a billion times for 13 years and didnt break anything(which is amazing) doesnt mean it happens to everyone.

I know a few people with awd(whether it be evo, wrx, gsx) and i love riding with them, but i would just feel horrible dropping the clutch like that, either way you look at it, stubborn or not, launching a car that hard puts MAJOR stress on everything.

If youre not wheel spinning, something else is letting go, trust me, lol

If you drop the hammer at 6000rpm, and youre not up to speed of 6000rpm instantling, something, somewhere is slipping, twisting, torquing and begging for mercy.

I am simply saying that i wouldnt trust myself with an awd without a slightly larger bank account.

However, i would like to get an AWD as my next car, something that is fairly beefy from the factory.

I drove an STI, i like it,and it seems to be very rugged, and damn the launch on those things is phenominal.

I've got some drag radials for my gst that i will be trying next time at the track, so i know it will help alot. BUt im only shooting for 2.0's
 
nazthug said:
i've punched my focus from 50mph and it did the same thing my gst does in 1st gear... :)


Thats why i somemtimes wish i had an AWD

BTW, just because you've launched a billion times for 13 years and didnt break anything(which is amazing) doesnt mean it happens to everyone.

I know a few people with awd(whether it be evo, wrx, gsx) and i love riding with them, but i would just feel horrible dropping the clutch like that, either way you look at it, stubborn or not, launching a car that hard puts MAJOR stress on everything.

If youre not wheel spinning, something else is letting go, trust me, lol

If you drop the hammer at 6000rpm, and youre not up to speed of 6000rpm instantling, something, somewhere is slipping, twisting, torquing and begging for mercy.

I am simply saying that i wouldnt trust myself with an awd without a slightly larger bank account.

However, i would like to get an AWD as my next car, something that is fairly beefy from the factory.

I drove an STI, i like it,and it seems to be very rugged, and damn the launch on those things is phenominal.

I've got some drag radials for my gst that i will be trying next time at the track, so i know it will help alot. BUt im only shooting for 2.0's

Better than my 60ft, I got a 2.3 60ft, with my crappy BF Goodrich tires.

If you looked at my link, that 1st gen FWD had a 1.6 60ft, just as fast as any street driven AWD, with no LSD, he just had some slicks and good driving.

An AWD is much less forgiving when it comes to the driver, in a fast FWD, you HAVE to know how to drive.

Everyone in the DSM world picks on the FWD DSM's, then go out and want to buy themselves a neon SRT-4 :rolleyes:
 
nazthug said:
i would just feel horrible dropping the clutch like that, either way you look at it, stubborn or not, launching a car that hard puts MAJOR stress on everything.

If youre not wheel spinning, something else is letting go, trust me
First of all, you don't launch AWD car by dropping the clutch. Get it out of your head. Also, your "trust me" based on assumptions or your or someone else's lack of driving skills doesn't stand a chance against one's personal experience. If everyone should trust you, John Shepherd wouldn't run high 8's while pulling 1.3 60' times either. One can launch an AWD car without ever chirping even the fronts - while not breaking anything in the process. Just because you can't still doesn't mean that everybody else can't either.
nazthug said:
BTW, just because you've launched a billion times for 13 years and didnt break anything(which is amazing) doesnt mean it happens to everyone.
It happens to everyone that knows how to launch and drive an AWD car. On the other hand, morons dropping the clutch at the redline will trash the center differential even in their bone stock 200HP cars. As I said, it's all about driving and HOW one launches the car, not IF he launches it. People frequently trashing trannys and transfer cases or breaking axles on their 200-300HP cars simply can't drive. Yes, it may and does occassionally happen - when one pushes a high-HP AWD over the edge at the track, but FWD cars aren't immune in that aspect either. At least, if someone breaks the spider gears of his center differential, they don't punch a hole through the bellhousing and trash the whole tranny - like the gears of the open front differential like to do on FWD cars.
 
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