Is this amount of camber OK, or is it too much?

DSM Vice · Jun 3, 2004

Ok, after noticing some really bad tire wear on the inside of three of my tires, and knowing the front tow as off after being hit

, I had an alignment done. Here's the best the guy could do:

Left Front
0.0' Camber
3.9' Caster
-.01' Toe

Right Front
-0.6' Camber
4.0' Caster
0.00' Toe

Specified Range in the front
-.6' to .4' Camber
3.2' to 6.2' Caster
-.12' to .12' Toe

Left Rear
-1.2' Camber
-.09 Toe

Right Rear
-2.3' Camber
-.11' Toe

Specified Range in the Rear
-2.2' to -1.2' Camber
.00 to .24' Toe

The car is at stock height.

I highlighted in red the "trouble" areas. The guy pointed out you can't really adjust the camber on these cars without a kit. He said the front camber shouldn't be too much of a problem but I should probably figure out a way to shim the rear to fix the camber issues. What do you guys think?

How should I go about fixing the camber? Ghetto nuts and washers or a kit for about $100?

What camber should I shoot for that will give me a good combination of tire wear and handling?

How do you go about measuring camber on these cars so that I could try and adjust it to be best of my ability before having the shop double check with the computer? I did a search but couldn't find anything.

Thanks for the help guys...I'm just getting into the suspension stuff now.

Rodman · Jun 4, 2004

Here is what I use for Camber Caster...
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/polpos.htm

I run 1.7 camber all the way around, which is not bad on the tires.
Caster I use 3.5 on drivers and 4 on the pass.
I try to keep toe as close to 0 as possable.

You don't have caster, camber plates on the front so your SOL there. I would think that at the stock ride height you should be able to dial in the rear no problem. Maybe the eccentric (sp) bolts are frozen or something. In any case Taboo makes a good cost effective camber kit for the rear.

jtmcinder · Jun 4, 2004

If it's your rear tires that are suffering, then it's pretty clear what the problem is: all that toe-out. Spec in the rear, as you posted, is zero or up to a quarter toe-in. But you've got negative rear toe, which is toe-out. And toe-out likes tires for breakfast (not to mention lunch and dinner, and toe-out even sometimes wakes up at about two am and goes out to the garage to nibble some more .. get the idea?).

I run 2.5 degree of front camber and 1.6 degrees in the rear. No tire-wear problems at all ... because I have near-zero toe all around.

- Jtoby

DSM Vice · Jun 4, 2004

jtmcinder said:
If it's your rear tires that are suffering, then it's pretty clear what the problem is: all that toe-out. Spec in the rear, as you posted, is zero or up to a quarter toe-in. But you've got negative rear toe, which is toe-out. And toe-out likes tires for breakfast (not to mention lunch and dinner, and toe-out even sometimes wakes up at about two am and goes out to the garage to nibble some more .. get the idea?).

I run 2.5 degree of front camber and 1.6 degrees in the rear. No tire-wear problems at all ... because I have near-zero toe all around.

- Jtoby

Sorry I'm an idiot. The toe in the rear is .09' on the left and .11' on the right (POSITIVE...not negative).

So it looks like my caster is OK. jtmcinder, you mentioned you ran 2.5' of front camber and 1.6' of rear, and Rodman you mentioned you ran 1.7' all the way around. Are these negative values or positive? I'm assuming negative for auto-x/road race applications...am I correct?

If so, would I be OK just using the bolt/washer kit or buying a $100 camber adjustment kit for the rear, aiming for -1.7' of camber or so on the rear, and just having the rear toed to zero?

Rodman, you mentioned I don't have camber/caster plates in the front so I can't adjust it. Where could I find these so that I could adjust the camber in the future?

BadDSM · Jun 4, 2004

Were these with you in the car?

If not then it doesnt matter much as someone has to drive the car and when you get in the camber and toe change.
When I had a performance alignment done on my miata I sat in the car and had them dial in 1 deg neg in the front camber and 1.75 degree in the rear. Zero toe in front and 1/16 toe in in the rear. Im sure the 2g's with their 4W double wish susp. will get some toe out and more neg camber when you add weight to the car.

Evan

Rodman · Jun 4, 2004

Mmm, not sure but positive toe is toe-out, rough on tires but good for road racing

Are you sure your toe in or out?

I run 1.7 all around to keep the car nuetral yet handle much better than stock. A 2.5 in front and 1.6 in rear is great to help keep it from understeering wile promoting some rear end slide (or oversteer). But keep in mind if it's wet, snow, gravel ect.. the car will really want to oversteer on you, I'm not that good of a driver for that kind of setup

Camber plates for a 2G

Oh and we mean neg camber, positive camber on a DSM=

trigger · Jun 6, 2004

Rodman said:
Here is what I use for Camber Caster...
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/polpos.htm

I run 1.7 camber all the way around, which is not bad on the tires.
Caster I use 3.5 on drivers and 4 on the pass.
I try to keep toe as close to 0 as possable.

You don't have caster, camber plates on the front so your SOL there. I would think that at the stock ride height you should be able to dial in the rear no problem. Maybe the eccentric (sp) bolts are frozen or something. In any case Taboo makes a good cost effective camber kit for the rear.

last time i check taboos kit was only for 1gs.

DSM Vice · Jun 6, 2004

trigger said:
last time i check taboos kit was only for 1gs.

Yeah I checked the site....still 1g's only.

DSM Vice · Jun 21, 2004

Updata...

The place that did my alignment before won't do my rear-end alignment if I use a ghetto shim kit as is described in the vfaq. So I have a few questions:

1) If I install the ghetto vfaq rear camber kit, will it affect my toe? Th reason I'm asking is I'm thinking about just having the alignment place set my toe to zero, and then adjusting the camber myself with the vfaq kit. Good idea?

2) Should I just install the ghetto vfaq camber kit and look for someplace else that will align it for me?

3) Should I just get a REAL kit? Any kit better than others, or are they all pretty much the same (I'm looking at an ingalls front and rear kit, but it's a little over $200 shipped...or just the rear kit, still about $80 shipped). Will the camber kits work with any and all coilovers that I might get in the future?

4) Should I just get the toe taken care of and say to hell with the camber?

Thanks for the response guys. I'm getting new rims and tires in about a week, so I'd like to have this all taken care of by then.

trigger · Jun 21, 2004

here's my $.02. i wouldn't do the ghetto camber kit because a. they call it ghetto for a reason, and b. quite frankly i just don't trust it. i really don't have any advice to which aftermarket one is best, but thats the path i would take. as for leaving it, i wouldn't do that if its too far out. i drove a lowered car w/a ton of negative camber for a while, and i ate up tires on it.

AXiS · Jun 22, 2004

I assume you're talking about the vfaq that I wrote when you refer to the "ghetto" kit. If you are, then let me give you a few tips. I've been using it since I wrote the vfaq and it's never given me any problems at all and it works great. When you adjust your camber with any sort of kit it will mess with your toe settings in the rear. Install the camber kit first to get rid of whatever camber you want, then take it to get the toe problem straightened out. If you have any more questions about it just ask here and i'll try and help if I can.

jtmcinder · Jun 22, 2004

Re: Updata...

DSM Vice said:
The place that did my alignment before won't do my rear-end alignment if I use a ghetto shim kit as is described in the vfaq.

So don't tell them about it.

I mean, let's be real ... if they are silly enough to refuse to take your money and align your car if you have shimmed your upper arms, then they are probably silly enough not to notice that you've done it (if you don't point it out).

- Jtoby

DSM Vice · Jun 22, 2004

AXiS said:
I assume you're talking about the vfaq that I wrote when you refer to the "ghetto" kit. If you are, then let me give you a few tips. I've been using it since I wrote the vfaq and it's never given me any problems at all and it works great. When you adjust your camber with any sort of kit it will mess with your toe settings in the rear. Install the camber kit first to get rid of whatever camber you want, then take it to get the toe problem straightened out. If you have any more questions about it just ask here and i'll try and help if I can.

Do you have an estimate as to how many washers will add "X" degrees of camber from your own experience?

jtmcinder · Jun 22, 2004

[copied from a post I made on another list]:

The vertical link in the rear is about 24" long. So, to do the trig, you first decide how much camber you want to take out (in degrees), find the tangent of this value, then multiply by 24" and that how thick the washers need to be.

Example: you want to take out .25 degrees.

tan .25 = .00436

.00436 x 24" = .105"

So you want about a tenth of an inch in shims or washers behind the upper arm mounts to delete .25 degrees of neg camber.

- Jtoby

DSM Vice · Jun 22, 2004

Re: Re: Updata...

jtmcinder said:
So don't tell them about it.

I mean, let's be real ... if they are silly enough to refuse to take your money and align your car if you have shimmed your upper arms, then they are probably silly enough not to notice that you've done it (if you don't point it out).

That's the thing....part of what I wanted for an alignment was to have the camber in the rear adjusted. I figure if they are using the washers to adjust the camber in the rear (the ONLY way to adjust the camber), they'll kind of notice they're there.

The guy who did my car definitely knew what he was doing...he was highly recommended, and after speaking with him, I could see why. He'd pick up on the washers quickly. The reason they won't do it is because of liability reasons....I spoke with the manager, and he said they're a big enough/busy enough place that it's not worth risking "an expensive lawsuit over a $30 job", and that they would only work with actual "engineered" kits, not hack jobs that are prone to failure.

Should I just try and do the camber myself with the kit, and then have them just take care of the toe? I'm not sure if they'd do it that way either, but considering they wouldn't be touching the shim kit at all I could try and convince them that it couldn't POSSIBLY be their problem.

DSM Vice · Jun 22, 2004

jtmcinder said:
[copied from a post I made on another list]:

The vertical link in the rear is about 24" long. So, to do the trig, you first decide how much camber you want to take out (in degrees), find the tangent of this value, then multiply by 24" and that how thick the washers need to be.

Example: you want to take out .25 degrees.

tan .25 = .00436

.00436 x 24" = .105"

So you want about a tenth of an inch in shims or washers behind the upper arm mounts to delete .25 degrees of neg camber.

- Jtoby

THANK YOU SO MUCH. That's EXACTLY what I was looking for.

jtmcinder · Jun 22, 2004

The problem is that the toe arm meets the knuckle higher and behind the lateral arm, so when you add washers to delete camber, you change toe. So you must shim first and then get toe set.

If the shop doesn't need your business (and doesn't understand that a new bolt plus some washers is about 15 times as sturdy as one of those sets of expensive adjustable brackets), then go elsewhere.

I don't believe that they'd ever notice the washers - because they will never be anywhere near the inboard end of the upper rear control arm - but I'm not going to argue about it. You know them better than I do.

- Jtoby

goalieman24 · Jun 23, 2004

alright im about to lower my car 1.75" and was told that i would only need to worry about the rear. Is there any way to tell from the amount of drop how much the camber will change? I would like to save multiple trips to get an alignment if i could just put the washers in and then have them correct the toe.

jtmcinder · Jun 23, 2004

The rear bump-camber curve for a 2G is around 1 degree per inch.

- Jtoby

goalieman24 · Jun 24, 2004

about how much degree change for the front??

Is this amount of camber OK, or is it too much?

DSM Vice

Rodman

jtmcinder

DSM Vice

BadDSM

Rodman

trigger

DSM Vice

DSM Vice

trigger

AXiS

jtmcinder

DSM Vice

jtmcinder

DSM Vice

DSM Vice

jtmcinder

goalieman24

jtmcinder

goalieman24

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