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97' Talon, 2.0L Chrysler engine vs 2.0L Turbo Mitsub. engine

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Prowl-talon

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I plan on rebuilding my motor in my car and tuning it (I dont know a ton about cars I got a friend kind of advising me)

Right now I have a base trim talon, I was doing some research on the motor and found out it is actually a Chrysler motor, not a mitsubishi motor like in the ESI and TSI trims. I am curious as to if it would be better to try and build this motor I have now, or to buy a Mitsubishi motor and build it up. Also im not even sure if the mitsubishi motor will mount in my car with the current engine mounts.

Everyone I have talked to was kind of suprised that it was a dodge motor in my car, and none of them knew enough about it to be able to tell me which way to go, which is why I am here, any advice would be great.

If it helps here is a link to the shop manual for my current motor.

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/2dohc.html
 
#3 ·
Yes, if your car doesn't have a turbo, its a 420a. Theres really nothing you can do to the motor during the rebuild that will make it fast (in comparision to the turbo models 4G63). Your motor is the same as found in many Dodges= cloud cars, Cirrus, Breeze, Stratus too I think and the like
 
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#4 ·
Does Hahn racing sell some stuff for this engine (for $$$)?
 
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Discussion starter · #5 · (Edited)
Actually its the same motor that is in the Avenger/Sebring, not Cirrus, Breeze, Stratus, those I think are sohc.

thiazole, ill have to check, im sure they do, in my research I have found a lot of people drag race avegers (most of which I know take the old motor out, but some keep the original) but ill have to check it out to see whats avaliable.

Im looking to get between 300-400hp at the wheels, thats my goal. I guess if worse comes to worse and this engine isnt worth it, then I could buy an old wrecked 2wd turbo eclipse or talon and rip the motor out of it as well as the other parts ill need.

Edit: Looking at some hahn racing stuff now seems they have been doing a lot of work to the 420a engines, I found a link here....

http://www.hahnracecraft.com/auto/engine/components.htm

In reading this article it seems to me that they really like this engine, could a couple of you guys let me know what you think after reading up on it some ? I would greatly appreciate it
 
#6 ·
A lot of people on this forum don't like Hahn because they have (had?) a controversial philosophy with their Super Series turbos where they made huge outlets to eliminate boost creep on internally gated turbos. Personally, I think they make high quality stuff and if you are willing to spend the money, they might be the best way to go to build up a 420a.
 
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#7 ·
Im sure its possible to get a 420a up to the levels you are wanting, but quite frankly it would probably be much cheaper to just have a 4g63 equipped car to begin with. Seeing as how buying a factory turbo car is from what ive heard cheaper than trying to perform a swap your best bet for the goals you are looking at is to just buy a turbo car. Either way its all up to you and the decision is yours, just trying to throw a little help out.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Well i appreciate the input, but well im only 21 so just throwing money towards a new car aint easy, and well I always like to be different :) im an american car fanboy, the idea of an american engine excited me a little bit, I just wasnt sure what could be done to this motor, but reading from hahn racing, taking the car up to 300-400 hp range like they say is all I want, and it sounds like that would probably be the cheapest and easiest route, rather than either engine swapping or going and buying an already turbo model.

Next question I have though is what do you guys honestly think about superchargers. I know especially with foreign designed cars turbo is the way to go, but does anyone have anything good to say about supercharging ? I guess the downside im seeing is that always there power wouldnt be economical for an every day driver, especially during the winter months when the roads get icy heh.
 
#9 ·
I'm not to sure about that as far as expense, aren't a lot of the turbo kits for the 420a around 4500, plus labor if your don't do it your self? I paid 4700 for my 95 TSI awd 2 years ago.......if it's actually as close as I think it is in price sell your NT and pick up a TSI, GSX or a GST. I personally would get AWD and be done with it. You would need to spend a lot less money in the long run to meet your goals.
 
Discussion starter · #10 · (Edited)
Ill do some research, you guys have givin me a lot to think about. I found my car for $3500 from a dealer, not a single thing wrong with it, 1 owner, 130k miles. From what I have seen for a similar year AWD Turbo I would have to dish out another few thousand, and odds are it wont be in as good of condition as this one is, but ill have to keep my eye out for that awesome deal out there, if I can find one in good condition at a low price I may have to jump on it.

Edit: im looking at turbo kits now for the 420a, they run around $2500-$3000
 
#11 ·
I actually think a supercharger on a 4 banger makes a lot of sense. I have my Talon with a turbo and a 6cyl Regal GS with a SC and I can't help but to feel that they are backward sometimes. The 4 banger in my Talon has NO low end torque, so what do they put on it? A turbo that doesn't make much power until 3000rpm. My Buick makes lots of torque, even without the supercharger, but lacks in high rpm horsepower. So what do they put on it? An SC that make so much damn low end torque, that it breaks motormounts stock. Also SC's work better on a manual transmission and turbos work better on automatic transmissions. The only disadvantage a SC has is that they are less efficient (because they require engine power to run them) and they are harder to change the boost on (you change pulleys instead of turning a dial on a boost controller). You can buy SC's capable of big boost and you can use intercoolers with them, so I can't help but to think that our cars would run better SCed. Of course, you would have to find a kit that would work on your engine....
 
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Discussion starter · #12 ·
Yeah, i honestly have always liked a supercharger better, these light 4bangers already have pretty decent pep at the high rpm range, especially when you open up exhaust and intake and all. Of course everyone I know that knows anything about cars says turbo is the way to go, but with the turbo lag and waiting for that power i really dont like it, I want the power when I step on the pedal.

Also from what I understand supercharger kits in general cost less than turbo kits, but i guess ill have to see if I can even find one, but then again, it is a dodge engine, so maybe it wont be as hard as I think.
 
#13 ·
I think a turbo on a V8 would be phenomonal (because turbo lag doesn't hurt you much), but they can be a pain on a small engine IMO. Of course, once the turbo is making full power, it is a lot of fun.
 
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Discussion starter · #14 ·
Yeah on a V8 you got all that low end torque anyways, no real need for more unless you got some racing slicks or somethin that can actually grip the road and use all of it, a turbo would make more sense.

Aparently there is a supercharger being made for the 420a, from what I can gather the kit is going to be for around $950, and they have yet to dyno test it yet, and I believe puts out 5 boost.

I have heard of people putting a turbo and supercharger in their vehicles, although you would definitly have to upgrade a lot of the engine components, running 5 boost SC and 5 boost turbo would give you the best of both worlds :)

anyways, $900 sounds better than $3000 for a kit, I prefer the SC power more, and I could use the money I save to upgrade the engine and redo my exhaust and stuff.

Also you might want to check out Flowmaster exhaust, I bought a muffler that mounted to my stock exhaust just to give me a nice sound, and I have to say, the sound is very nice, I opened up the intake with an HKS cold air, and have some headers coming in soon, I like the tough american sound the flowmaster gave my car cause I am no fan of the chainsaw sounding exhaust that a lot of people put on their imports.
 
#15 ·
Just an idea....

What rpm would you launch at? Im assuming around 3500 rpms; Cause that's where I launch at. When does a turbo, size makes a difference, on small displacement motors usually spool completely? Around 3000 to 3500rpm's. When do you shift? Almost as high up as you can on dohc motors. When would you actually have lag then? Almost never. Which power adder has parasitic hp loss? not a turbocharger. Which one makes you capable of higher hp and better, easier tuning? A turbocharger.

I was just asking, and answering some questions you didn't know to ask.
 
#16 ·
You have lag when you are cruising at 2500 rpm and you see a big truck who just ran a red light to your left and is about to barrel into the side of your car and you floor it to avoid the collision, but guess what? You have to wait 2 seconds for your turbo to spool :)

Also when you are at a light next to a Mustang and you don't know whether or not he is going to try to race you. You can rev it up and launch and hope you don't look like an idiot because the guy next to you isn't interested in racing you, or you can wait to see if he is going to take off hard and try and play catch up while your turbo spools up and he is already 5 car lengths ahead of you.
 
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#17 ·
Luckily we can usually beat Mustangs even when they get a 5 car length head start :D
 
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#18 ·
thiazole said:
You have lag when you are cruising at 2500 rpm and you see a big truck who just ran a red light to your left and is about to barrel into the side of your car and you floor it to avoid the collision, but guess what? You have to wait 2 seconds for your turbo to spool :)

Also when you are at a light next to a Mustang and you don't know whether or not he is going to try to race you. You can rev it up and launch and hope you don't look like an idiot because the guy next to you isn't interested in racing you, or you can wait to see if he is going to take off hard and try and play catch up while your turbo spools up and he is already 5 car lengths ahead of you.
Click to expand...
Youre absolutely right on the first one. Hopefully you would be paying more attention than that than relying on your "built" eclipse. But spool up from a stop doesn't take long at all. Maybe a quarter second. Turbo probe as reference, my na car hits 3k almost instantly if I hit the gas wot in 1st. I'm sure it would go even faster if I had a turbo that spooled halfway at 2500rpm's.

If you want to sc then go ahead. Look, I'm not trying to flame you, just giving you what you asked for.If you don't believe me then do what you want anyway.
 
#19 ·
I like my turbo charged Talon, I'm just saying that I don't understand why manufacturers almost always put turbos in 4 bangers with manual transmissions and superchargers in 6 and 8 cylinders with automatics (when they do put a turbo in a 6 cylinder it is almost always a manual). It is backwards thinking. They are mixing components that don't compliment each other very well.
 
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#20 ·
The chevy cobalt is sc, ion redline is same platform. The reason they don't put too many sc's on 4cyls is because the parasitic drag on the motor is more because the motor didn't have that much power to give up in the first place. This is why turbos suit smaller motors better than sc's. turbos don't have parasitic drag on the motor. They just make a nice muffler :D

Coincidentally, drag cars use sc's because when you're making that much power who the fuck cares what kind of drag you have?!?!

I agree on the 6-8cyl thing, look what the buick gn did!
 
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thiazole
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