Evo 3 gt anyone?

BBL-Automotive · Jun 13, 2005

ShapeGSX said:
Not according to the manufacturer: http://bblgroup.us/automotive/product/evo3gt/

I've never heard of a situation where thicker turbo blades were actually better for racing, though. That just means less airflow and worse spoolup. Why would you need to make something that should never come into contact with anything else "heavy duty?"

ShapeGSX, I never said our turbine wheel blades are thinner, they should be the exact same. Our compressor wheels are a hair thicker, because they are designed to withstand massive abuse. We designed them to be much stronger than the MHI. We compensated by using a more expensive aluminum alloy that is lighter, so the spoolup won't be affected by the thicker blades. VERY minor differences, but we think our wheel will work better.

BBL-Automotive · Jun 13, 2005

ShapeGSX said:
Exhaust pressure will push the wastegate flapper open. The larger the flapper, the more apt the flapper is to get pushed open. The force on the flapper for a given exhaust pressure is proportional to the square of the flapper radius. Those few mm can make a big difference. When the flapper gets pushed open, the turbo loses the exhaust out the wastegate and the boost level drops.

I've had it happen before on previous turbos. It was very annoying. It made the car feel very slow. That is why I chose to keep my Evo III unported and with a stock sized flapper.

ShapeGSX, i can't speak to your experience, but 99 times out a 100 larger flapper reduces boost creep. Boost creep, in case anyone doesn't know, is when you're cruising along at a higher RPM and your boost needles starts to creep upward without gassing the petal. This happens because the turbo creates so much exhaust gas pressure that the stock 28mm wastegate hole can't expel it all. The larger opening lets enough gas out that it relieves the pressure inside the turbo. This is simply a flaw with the MHI design that we fixed in the GT...unless you want to pay $60 to have a machinist do it.

ShapeGSX · Jun 14, 2005

BBL-Automotive said:
ShapeGSX, I never said our turbine wheel blades are thinner, they should be the exact same. Our compressor wheels are a hair thicker, because they are designed to withstand massive abuse. We designed them to be much stronger than the MHI. We compensated by using a more expensive aluminum alloy that is lighter, so the spoolup won't be affected by the thicker blades. VERY minor differences, but we think our wheel will work better.

First of all, I was never talking about the turbine wheels. I was only talking about the compressor wheels.

Thicker blades mean less room for air to enter the inducer of the compressor, unfortunately. If I haven't seen compressor failure with the standard Evo III 16G and its thin blades, I doubt that anyone else will. So I don't see the need for the larger blades.

ShapeGSX · Jun 14, 2005

BBL-Automotive said:
ShapeGSX, i can't speak to your experience, but 99 times out a 100 larger flapper reduces boost creep. Boost creep, in case anyone doesn't know, is when you're cruising along at a higher RPM and your boost needles starts to creep upward without gassing the petal. This happens because the turbo creates so much exhaust gas pressure that the stock 28mm wastegate hole can't expel it all. The larger opening lets enough gas out that it relieves the pressure inside the turbo. This is simply a flaw with the MHI design that we fixed in the GT...unless you want to pay $60 to have a machinist do it.

I don't get boost creep in the summer with my Evo III 16G. I do get a tiny bit of creep in the winter because the air is denser. I can live with that small bit of creep in the winter because I can't use full throttle in the winter anyway. There isn't enough traction in the winter to keep my tires from spinning, even with my AWD. So my foot is my boost controller.

But what I can't live with is the falling boost levels in the upper RPMs that is caused by a larger flapper valve. I wouldn't have run as fast as I have in the 1/4mi with a larger flapper. The falling boost levels caused by a larger flapper valve cripple airflow, torque, and power.

GPTourer · Jun 14, 2005

BBL-Automotive said:
ShapeGSX, i can't speak to your experience, but 99 times out a 100 larger flapper reduces boost creep.

True. Mine has never creeped. Or crept.

Four Corners · Jun 14, 2005

GPTourer said:
True. Mine has never creeped. Or crept.

Yours has the flapper mod or no?

GPTourer · Jun 14, 2005

Yes, mine has the 34mm flapper mod.

lithium · Jun 14, 2005

BBL-Automotive said:
Boost creep, in case anyone doesn't know, is when you're cruising along at a higher RPM and your boost needles starts to creep upward without gassing the petal.

I was reading this thread in hopes that you might convince me that this turbo has potential; fortunately, you haven't.

I would like to know, however, how you can build boost without "gassing the petal."

The truth is, many like me will never buy your turbo because of how deceiving the name is. In my opinion, if you need to use someone else's reputation to sell your product, you're probably selling a product that can't build it's own reputation.

If you have an answer as to how you can be "cruising along at high rpms" and have your "boost needles start to creep" without "gassing the petal," I'd like to hear it. Otherwise, you need not reply as my mind has already been made up about this turbo.

TenBears · Jun 14, 2005

I dont know nothing about turbo design and all the science that goes with it, but one thing I can see after reading many threads here is everyone has an opinion and a theory and a experience about a certain part/vendor. It becomes very confusing especially to us noobs because all your points sound reasonable but no one can ever really prove 100% their POV is the absolute end all be all on whatever.

The way I see it, until man comes up with a way to make every piece of steel/aluminum/iron/whatever metal part consistantly the exact clone of another and piece them together the exact clone way as compared to another made like it, you will always have flaws.

We all seem to agree that no 2 cars run the same though they come off the same assembly line, why do we ignore that when it comes to topics like this ?
Can all turbos coming off the same assembly line run exactly alike ? I think all makers of every part you can think of have their duds. Over time you can look back and say part X made by Maker Y sold 500K units and only 5K crapped out in less than a year. And part X made by Maker z sold 10Million units and 200K crapped out out in less than a year.

One company mayhave sold more but in terms of units sold and actual crap units, both companies are not doing bad producing units that actually work as advertised.

So until some hard numbers are shown on the history of both turbos, we can debate this till hog branding time.................(Why are the old flintstones no longer on TV ?)

Four Corners · Jun 14, 2005

I have a theory that most of the people who are upset about the marketing of this turbo wouldn't buy this turbo anyway-it's MHI or nothing, really.

eyebrowski · Jun 14, 2005

Four Corners said:
hey, up yours greg. Thanks for talking trash on the forums.

shape just responded to something I had said about turbine blades by posting about compressor blades and vice versa.

When have I been talking any trash? I have not, your the one that can't shut your mouth.

You HAVE NOT earned the reputation to come on this board and start running your mouth and trashing members. No, I do not like you but why:
1) you started a thread to see if anyone knew how a turbo YOU are SELLING performs. This is after you claimed " Turbo supports WAY over 380 horsepower". Where did you get this information?
2) after you were banned you simply created a new account
3) I have not seen anything other than regurgitated info from you, put this turbo on your DSM dyno it, put a bunch of 1/4 mile passes on it, and pile the miles on.
4) you just flipped a shit at me for your misunderstanding about what Josh was talking about.
5) you can't speak the English language

Four Corners said:
I have a theory that most of the people who are upset about the marketing of this turbo wouldn't buy this turbo anyway-it's MHI or nothing, really.

You have already had people come foward to say they are perfectly neutral as they have gone full Garret anyway. I am as well one of those people.

GPTourer said:
True. Mine has never creeped. Or crept.

The argument is not whether a larger flapper will help creep or not, I don't think anyone is arguing that with a ported WG hole and larger flapper it will help creep. BUT, the larger flapper has more area for the exhaust gas to press against and this extra force over powers the WG and pushes the flapper open. What good is the turbo if you can't run high boost? But what is wrong with a good old WG hole porting to cure the creep, this has worked for many years before a larger flapper was even offered.

BBL, thank you for your professionalism and keeping your head out of all the shit slinging. This kind of behavior along with a good reputation for craftsmanship (which will come if your claims prove to be true) is what will make you succeed in this community

Four Corners · Jun 14, 2005

eyebrowski said:
Personally I didn't even read your write up. I was talking about 4 corners getting me heated and having poor grammar when talking directly to me. I just find it strange that he has sold over 100 of these turbos so he claims and doesn't stock any??? He doesn't have any direct experience and when asked about it he refers you to another shop for the questions but still claims this turbo is the next sliced bread.

oh yeah right, guy. You didn't talk ANY trash at all. You're a tool.

Four Corners · Jun 14, 2005

eyebrowski said:
When have I been talking any trash? I have not, your the one that can't shut your mouth.

You HAVE NOT earned the reputation to come on this board and start running your mouth and trashing members. No, I do not like you but why:
1) you started a thread to see if anyone knew how a turbo YOU are SELLING performs. This is after you claimed " Turbo supports WAY over 380 horsepower". Where did you get this information?

see the above post-not talking trash? Yeah right. You even posted an email exchange between you and myself on this thread, page one, to try and prove some strange point.

I didn't start a thread to see if the GT performed, I started a thread to have GT owners post their experience with the turbo. I pretty much knew there would be ZERO posts that said "MY turbo failed." You're pretty good at just lying about things to manipulate people's point of view.

And you can calculate estimated crank HP by doing MATH, idiot. If turbo X flows Y CFM, you can know how much HP you can make with turbo x.

eyebrowski · Jun 14, 2005

Four Corners said:
It's called math, retard.

I suggest you stop the personal attacks.

We have seen these turbos that are suppose to provide us with all this horsepower many times in the past. Due a little research on Bullseye and their former Mutts. We don't accept that a turbo should make X amount of horsepower, prove it by strapping it to YOUR DSM.

What math can you provide us with considering there isn't even a compressor map for the turbo.

My so called trash talking was nothing more than pointing out some facts.
a) you don't have any experience that you have shown us
b) your shop is nothing more than a middle man. I doubt you would be shot down by FP, AGP, AMS, or RRE to go and pick up a product.

eyebrowski · Jun 14, 2005

Four Corners said:
And you can calculate estimated crank HP by doing MATH, idiot. If turbo X flows Y CFM, you can know how much HP you can make with turbo x.

Honestly, just out of curiosity how many CFMs did this turbo flow and on who's car? A car making that kind of power should be able to lay down some good ETs.

Van · Jun 14, 2005

ShapeGSX said:
But what I can't live with is the falling boost levels in the upper RPMs that is caused by a larger flapper valve. I wouldn't have run as fast as I have in the 1/4mi with a larger flapper. The falling boost levels caused by a larger flapper valve cripple airflow, torque, and power.

I'll second this. I've been there and have the t-shirt. A larger flapper valve is the wrong band-aid for boost creep. Increasing the diameter of that flapper, increases the exhaust pressure on the flapper exponentially. This truly makes it much harder to control the flapper valve movement and requires the power to keep it steady under full boost control operation to be much higher. This is very difficult to achieve and still have a low boost level.

This is also why ALOT of people get real tired of dicking with the "wrong band-aid" and upgrade to a TiAL external wg.

I fought a larger wg flapper with an expensive Garrett adjustable wastegate actuator that I modified additionally. It still couldn't hold steady when I needed it to and the lowest boost I could run ended up being >20 psi.

TenBears, If the newbs take the time to search out the info and pay attention to who's saying what, how they're saying it and if they're backing it up with numbers, then the truth can be clearly seen.

Four Corners · Jun 14, 2005

Ugh, I'm done with this thread-no one can offer any data at all, they can just post bullshit or pose questions, or just try to trash each other. I mean jesus christ, Extreme posts dyno graphs, but I guess those don't mean anything. I can post pictures of the real EVOIII GT internals, and no one even cares. What really matters here is that a site has fake pictures, some guy names eyebrowsky doesn't like me, or the MHI EVOIII turbo is a bulletproof turbo built by the gods on mount olympus.

So EyeBrowSki, where do you think CFM is measured? On a car?

eyebrowski · Jun 14, 2005

Four Corners said:
Ugh, I'm done with this thread-no one can offer any data at all, they can just post bullshit or pose questions, or just try to trash each other.

You are the one that is suppose to be supplying the data.

Four Corners said:
So EyeBrowSki, where do you think CFM is measured? On a car?

Through airflow.
P(psia) x V(cu.ft./min) x 29
----------------------------
(10.73 x T(deg R))

ShapeGSX · Jun 14, 2005

Four Corners said:
And you can calculate estimated crank HP by doing MATH, idiot. If turbo X flows Y CFM, you can know how much HP you can make with turbo x.

Yes, you did say that the "GT" flows more air than the Evo III, even though the GT has a smaller compressor inlet area due to the thicker compressor blades. The compressor inlet is really what determines the maximum flow of a turbo. So where does the extra CFM come from?

For that matter, what is the CFM rating of the Evo III 16G? And what is the CFM rating of the GT? I've never seen CFM measurements for either one.

I have measured 44.1lb/min of peak airflow through my Evo III 16G, however. There is my real data. Now go ahead and post yours! Mass airflow is a much better measurement than CFM. A cubic foot of air could contain one air molecule or thousands or billions. But a mass airflow measurement will tell you exactly how many air molecules are flowing through the turbo, and from that you can derive theoretical maximum horsepower.

jivemastert · Jun 14, 2005

ShapeGSX said:
Yes, you did say that the "GT" flows more air than the Evo III, even though the GT has a smaller compressor inlet area due to the thicker compressor blades. The compressor inlet is really what determines the maximum flow of a turbo. So where does the extra CFM come from?

For that matter, what is the CFM rating of the Evo III 16G? And what is the CFM rating of the GT? I've never seen CFM measurements for either one.

I have measured 44.1lb/min of peak airflow through my Evo III 16G, however. There is my real data. Now go ahead and post yours! Mass airflow is a much better measurement than CFM. A cubic foot of air could contain one air molecule or thousands or billions. But a mass airflow measurement will tell you exactly how many air molecules are flowing through the turbo, and from that you can derive theoretical maximum horsepower.

I'm also very intersted in this number. Can someone please provide it? Maybe even with the calculations used?

Evo 3 gt anyone?

BBL-Automotive

BBL-Automotive

ShapeGSX

ShapeGSX

GPTourer

Four Corners

GPTourer

lithium

TenBears

Four Corners

eyebrowski

Four Corners

Four Corners

eyebrowski

eyebrowski

Van

Four Corners

eyebrowski

ShapeGSX

jivemastert

Top Contributors this Month

Recommended Communities