Auto vs 5 speed (reasons vs. reasons)

urbanridah · Jul 5, 2005

I've been reading up on forums and other sites trying to figure out whether I should buy a manual or an automatic. I found a car I want its a 95 tsi auto w/ low miles and a cheap price, but then again its an automatic. Theres not much of a selection of dsm's where i live, and this seems like to be the right car for me. I wanna car for speed and people have been posting that 5 speeds are just for fun that there not any faster than an automatic. I just wanna know what u guys think on this subject. If i could find a car like the automatic TSI i'm looking at and have it be a 5 speed, I would definitely take the 5 speed, but then again my selection to dsm vechicles are limited. I just wanna know how much difference there is in torque and quarter mile times for each transmission. I came up with some reasons to buy either a auto or 5 speed.

Reasons for an automatic:
1. I drive in kinda heavy traffic, and would really get annoyed shifting all the time on stop and go.
2. So much easier to drive.
3. Dont have to worry about grinding gears and replacing clutches.
4. Better engine life.
5. Can smoke, eat, drink while driving.

Reasons for a 5 speed:
1. More torque!
2. Won't get laughed at for having an import thats an automatic.
3. Better fuel economy.
4. Lot of fun to drive(When not driving with stop and go traffic)
5. Better for racing.

Just let me know what u guys would do and which one faster and by how much.

ooljima · Jul 5, 2005

i have an auto 97gsx............ no torque whatsoever from the get go.... i hope it's not just me........... and manuals just feels a lot faster.

diablooffire03 · Jul 5, 2005

I agree with ooljima, i put a lot of time a money into my car and it slacks a lot on the torque end, but still somewhat quick, it just dont feel as fast as a manual

turbotalon95 · Jul 5, 2005

its the stock torque convertor that makes the car seem a little sluggish down low. Get rid of that for a nice high stall unit and you will see a great gain.

But anyway to the original question it depends on whether the car was FWD or AWD. Personally I prefer an automatic FWD because I have yet to be outlaunched by a 5 speed on street tires. You lose a little topend but, topend doesnt win drag races. On the other hand for AWD Id rather have a 5 speed, becuase it will take quite a bit of mods for the automatic to even come close to the launching ability of a 5 speed AWD. This of course is just my personal opinion.

Quiksilver_63 · Jul 5, 2005

You guys ever hear a car with an exhaust thats automatic?

horrible i tell u.....

Personal reference is a 5 speed

urbanridah · Jul 5, 2005

thanx guys...Do u know anyone that would know the 1/4 mile times. The five speed would be faster but I need to know by how much. If it's something small then i'll prolly get the auto but if its like a second and a half or something i just gotta find me a 5 speed.

4SFED4 · Jul 6, 2005

Quiksilver_63 said:
You guys ever hear a car with an exhaust thats automatic?

horrible i tell u.....

BS

My 91 has a full 3.5" exhaust, no problems and only a 4000RPM stall. My 93 runs a full 2.5" and my Dad's 91 GSX has a full 3"(3500 stall), no prblems with them either.

If the car is setup and tuned properly you shouldn't have any issues. It is true if you run an open DP it will run like shit on the low end, even my 91 with the 3.5" all the way back it makes a differance, don't know why??

I'll agree 5spds are more fun, but I have yet to lose to a 5spd AWD car. Ofcourse it is obviously not unlikely(I don't have an 8 sec car), but I have yet to run into one on the street.

t4cyclone TSI · Jul 6, 2005

If I were you I would get a 5spd. If you have enough money for a little old beat up car for a DD and go with the 5spd.

MegaGS · Jul 6, 2005

The 5 spd is stronger than an auto when increasin hp. You don't have to build the tranny to take it unless you are making 400+hp, you just have to change the clutch. A manual is also much lighter than an auto. A manual trans car comes with a better fuel system and better camshafts. Also, there is no converter obv so you can launch the car IN it's powerband.

I personally would rather change a clutch 300 bucks than replace the clutches. I mean pay someone to replace the clutches in an auto ($xxxx)

I can live with the uncomfort with a stick for reliability's sake.

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130437&highlight=18g

maui6651 · Jul 6, 2005

If you are asking yourself the question, just get a 5 speed. Don't settle for a car you don't want; you'll regret it.

With that out of the way, I'd like to point out a few things.

MegaGS said:
The 5 spd is stronger than an auto when increasin hp. You don't have to build the tranny to take it unless you are making 400+hp, you just have to change the clutch.

While the stock Auto transmission may not be bulletproof, what Mitsubishi transmission is? For about the price of a new clutch, basic mods can be done on the transmission to help extend it's life: External Cooler, if it doesn't already have one (~$80), Temp Gauge (~$50), Shift Kit ($79), and End Clutches ($79).

MegaGS said:
A manual is also much lighter than an auto.

77 Pounds, to be exact. If you go by the 100 pounds = .1 seconds theory, that's .07 seconds off your ET in the quarter mile. While a difference, is it worth the extra money for a 5 speed? Put your car (and yourself, if you're my size) on a diet, and the issue disappears.

MegaGS said:
A manual trans car comes with a better fuel system and better camshafts.

Only on the first generation. Second Gen, which is what he is looking for, is exactly the same.

MegaGS said:
Also, there is no converter obv so you can launch the car IN it's powerband.

The Torque Converter is what gives the Auto it's biggest advantage. The car can be launched with boost at near 3000 RPM. That's in the powerband of a stock DSM, and a restalled stock converter can be had for around $450, giving an even bigger advantage.

MegaGS said:
I personally would rather change a clutch 300 bucks than replace the clutches. I mean pay someone to replace the clutches in an auto ($xxxx)

A full race spec transmission (TRE) runs near $3000 when fully loaded up. Same price for a race prepared automatic. Rebuilds are all over the map for both transmissions.

Am I arguing here? No, I'm not trying to. Just trying to add in an opposing view. Get what is going to make you happy, not what the guy down the street is going to say to you about your 'stupid automatic'. I've been dealing with the 'Oh, it's an automatic. Why didn't you get a 5 speed?' for 2 years, and I could really care less. My car, in near stock form, is still faster than most of the idiots who make those comments.

Ryan

BergayaJS · Jul 6, 2005

Well I think you should look at what you're gonna use your car for. Are you going to use it for drags, autocrosses, street racing or just to show off? Then choose from there which you think is more suitable for your needs. That AT car you're looking at might be teriffic for drags but maybe it just wouldn't suit autocrosses so well? Or maybe it might be the other way around? Both transmissions have their pros and cons. Both are capable of pushing high hps if done right. Maybe one needs more work than the other but well.. Just my 2cents.

LatDSM · Jul 6, 2005

Full spec AT stuff with rebuild kit from IPT costs under 1500$ in parts.
A sheph tranny costs double that.

A MT can not hold more than 280-300hp reliably if its being raced, no matter how often you change the clutches.

Back to 2g ATs
ATs have 205hp and 300Nm
MTs have 210hp and 290Nm

ATs with stock convertor can launch @ 3000rpm with full boost.

Having raced my friends TSi AWD MT with a nearly dead t-25 turbo, and my car having issues....we were almost dead even. He won by a small fraction.

The MT is easier to race, but the AT can whoop a lot of ass once you get the hang of it. The switchable panel being in the works, + IPTs fine products will make the ATs just as competitive as the MTs.

++ you have the benefit of ease fo driving in traffic jams etc etc etc.

Check out: http://www.importperformancetrans.com/ and http://www.atdsm.com/

Once you upgrade your tranny, your power modifications will bring just as much benefit as an MT would...If you do not make the tranny upgrades you will be ~1sec slower than a similarly modded MT.

Get an MT if you want instant power, but later on you will still have to upgrade your MT which is just as expensive if not more to do...

79zeph · Jul 6, 2005

another thing i didnt see mentioned that could help you is an automatic is VERY consistant. if you get a launch technique down your going to pull very close to the same time run after run. my GST is somewhat consistant depending on how i shift but my auto zephyr will run within .1 of its time 15 runs or more in a row!!

GPTourer · Jul 6, 2005

I only have experience with my modded car, but I have driven several stock DSMs.

I have been in two examples of Auto AWDs, one a '95 Talon and the other a '97 GSX. They were both by far the slowest of all turbo DSMs I've been in. Yes, I know that you are going to mod them, but I think you start in the biggest hole with one of these cars. It was almost to the point I thought something was wrong with the first one, until I drove the second one a few years later, and it even felt slower then I remembered. Although I do think the auto has advanatages, the thought of perfect shifts and building torque off the line sound awesome to me, I would think you have to be ready to invest thousands right off the top to reap these benefits. Meanwhile, on the T-25 I feel like you would have trouble with an IHE '99 civic SI or something similar.

The one FWD auto I drove felt a whole lot faster, but nothing compared to any 5 speed of either drivetrain - again I'm talking about stock cars. In the end it depends on what your goals are and how much you are willing to invest, but with just modest mods, a 5speed seems to be so much quicker.

MegaGS · Jul 6, 2005

I thought of a pro: You don't have to slip the clutch if you are going to street race, you just hit the gas. Instant movement in other words, unlike a manual where there is usually some type of delay, which will hurt in a "race" but not in a 1/4 mile run.

I will agree that it is harder to make a stick replicate similar numbers. When g-teching (I know not reliable whatever...) My n/t ran 17.1 first time. I had trouble finding my pace, but in the end I ran 16.3 on g-tech. 1/4 times yielded a 16.4. I have trouble getting consistancy though.

That being said, in reply to my posts which were argued with there are some more things to consider.

Yes, the PARTS for an auto tranny are cheaper than a BUILT ready-to-drop-in manual. That makes perfect sense. When you add up the labor of putting in those parts, you will meet the difference and possibly exceed it. It's funny how when people quote you they leave out the things that negated their argument from the start

Lat dsm, I have seen many manuals exceed 280hp last for years. While they were not pounded on every night, they withstood pound after pound every other weekend at the track. I do not believe it is a good idea to rag out your car everytime you drive it. Any monkey can destroy any tranny if they don't take care of it.

There is a launch advantage of a manual, big difference revving to 3k, than 5-6k. These motors make peak hp around 6.5k rpms, so you are launching nearer to max power and will be in second gear sooner than an auto if you can shift worth a damn, unless they have a high stall. Launching depending on hp and technique of course. As long as you can hook up and are carefull not to create a differential soup, A manual has an advantage, but you have to preload the tranny by slipping the clutch, before you completely dump it, or you will be drilling out your cv shafts to get them out of the hub (happened to a local dsm'r here) or replacing a lot more than that.

I was always under the myth that manual owns all, I see that was untrue, both have strong/weak points. Thanks for letting me see the light guys. Decide based on which points are strong/weak for YOU urbanridah.

urbanridah · Jul 6, 2005

I did some more reading and listened to you guys telling me to do what makes me happy so I'm prolly gonna go with the automatic TSI AWD. I mean its a good deal and these cars are scarse, so I'm just gonna jump on the deal. If my car is an automatic, O well as long as it can still beat some of the cars around here, I'll be happy. Thanx guys.

diablooffire03 · Jul 6, 2005

Not to jack the thread, but any one somewhat close to Hackettstown, NJ that can install the shift kit/end clutches for a good price? because from what I read here I should upgrade them, but that is somthing I don't want to mess with. So let me know anyone.

4SFED4 · Jul 6, 2005

MegaGS said:
The 5 spd is stronger than an auto when increasin hp. You don't have to build the tranny to take it unless you are making 400+hp, you just have to change the clutch.

A manual trans car comes with a better fuel system and better camshafts.

1. I can shift at 9K with my stock a/t adding just an electronic shiftbox I make at home. Try doing that with your stock 5spd

2. If you plan on making REAL power 400+ those two items are pointless to point out

hotshyt · Jul 6, 2005

its down to this...
str8 racing...you WILL NEVER OUTSHIFT AND AUTO
and I drnk, and eat, talk on the phone and shift in Atl 285 rush hour traffic if any of you know how that is...lol..and I USED to smoke too...till i quit..lol...

its all about whether or not you enjoy a stick or not

Auto vs 5 speed (reasons vs. reasons)

urbanridah

ooljima

diablooffire03

turbotalon95

Quiksilver_63

urbanridah

4SFED4

t4cyclone TSI

MegaGS

maui6651

BergayaJS

LatDSM

79zeph

GPTourer

MegaGS

urbanridah

diablooffire03

4SFED4

hotshyt

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