FRIGGIN CLUTCHES AND SHIFTING! I want REAL ANSWERS!

beerglass · Jun 8, 2001

No man i'm not talk'n about the rod up at the pedal, im talk'n about the rod that goes from the cylinder at the front of the engine into the belhousing. (to the clutch fork) If you extend that rod it has to move the fork further than before, so more release on the clutch. Thanks for the info on the crankwalk, i'll try that today.

Clinton
1990 Talon Tsi Awd @17 psi

Lipster · Jun 8, 2001

OH OH OH!! Got ya...

Yeah, some guys have taken the slave cylinder and shaved some of the slave cylinder housing off so that the cylinder sits closer to the fork thus in essence extending the reach of that rod. And again, I THINK, but not 100% sure, that it only temporarily fixed the problem. I'm not 100% sure, so, try checking DSM.ORG in the archives and see if it was done successfully; that's where I read about that.

sab4you · Jun 8, 2001

Lipster said:
Can you tell I've been searching every aspect of this POS? My father and I (who is an engineer) where fighting/discussing this thing for a good 2 hours last night...

Good to hear people are researching this crappy design with 1g. I am sure there has to be a solution as well, just putting time+effort into it.

I wanted to have a website thrown up just for 1g tranny problems, where people can post what they tried, etc so we dont doubleup on ideas. Too bad I dont know how to do a website

WGTalon · Jun 8, 2001

Clutch problems

The spring has nothing to do with the pedal engagement. Trust me I know I dont even have a spring on mine..Its is just a helper spring to help the pedal out and force exerted with your foot/leg.
As far as the website....I will host a site on the problems or a yahoo club if that sounds ok. It will have a message board etc. here is the url

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/dsmpedal

Feel free to post solutions etc....etc..pics or whatever......Im fed up with the problem too

Taboo · Jun 9, 2001

My clutch died on me last night (the slave cylinder's leaking and doesn't hold pressure). No big deal.
When studying the repair manual, I THINK I might have found the solution (and cause) to our problem. Extending the master clutch cylinder pushrod or shiming the slave cylinder doesn't actually do anything to the distance the piston in the slave cylinder travels - and that's exactly what we need to achieve. When looking at the master cylinder piston assembly bellow, one may see that if the coils of the spring get compressed so much that they hit each other and the spring starts acting as a stop, the piston doesn't travel any further. I thought I might cut off a couple (or more) of coils off the spring and stretch the spring (so it wouldn't flap around) which would allow the piston to travel further, create more pressure and consequently also pushing the slave cylinder rod more out = better clutch disengagement. I'm not really sure if that's (the coils of the spring in the master cylinder hitting each other) what's really happening (it's quite possible), but I'll get a master cylinder from junkyard, try to do the mod (cutting a few coils off the spring) and let you all know if it helped...

Taboo · Jun 9, 2001

Now, when thinking about it, the perfect solution would be a stiffer spring of the same size, but with less coils...

Taboo · Jun 9, 2001

OK, here's another thing I came up with. The spring in the master cylinder serves to return the piston as far out of the bore as possible. When one adjusts the pushrod and the spring is weak, then the spring becomes permanently preloaded and the piston pushed further and further inside the cylinder. Basically, the more one adjusts the pushrod, the more the springs gets compressed and the piston pushed further - which reduces its travel. By using a stiffer spring with less coils, the piston would always return all the way back, the spring wouldn't be permanently compressed so much that it shortens the piston travel and the coils wouldn't hit each other...
What do you think, guys?

Lipster · Jun 10, 2001

Well... MAYBE.

The one thing I was playing with tonight could be kinda sorta tied in with what you are saying. The only problem is I do not know if the '90 - '92 Turbos have the same setup as the '93 -'94 turbos.

The cylinder rod comes through the firewall and attaches to that lever. Also attached to that lever is a large retention spring. Well, I noticed that when I welded that nut on the adjustment fitting, I could adjust the rod further 'in' and thus lift the pedal height. WELL, the clutch DID become preloaded because when you release the clutch pedal, the lever, not sure about the spring, would smack into the metal bracket that the other end of the retention spring is attached to. SO, I got under the car tonight and tried to file away some of the metal so the lever would be allowed to swing further back and in turn increase the pedal height. It kinda sorta worked a bit WITHOUT having the clutch preloaded. I am not grinding AS MUCH, but I can't say what it will be like in 2 weeks. But, if we DO need to extend the rod or add threads for the rod to adjust on, we need to get that bracket shaved away so the lever can come back further so THEN the pedal height actually DOES increase without preloading and giving more pedal travel and thus pushing more fluid...

HOWEVER, I sat and thought about what you were saying about the spring... does a stronger spring with less coils still compress to the same as a weaker spring with more coils? If not, I am VERY MUCH liking what you are saying!

WGTalon · Jun 10, 2001

Spring

OK this is my view on the spring. That spring attaches to the assembly under that dash which mounts the master cyl to the firewall. That spring has nothing to do with pedal engagement. I know this because I do not even have that big ass coil spring on my car anymore because I broke a bolt off in the assembly that mounts the clutch master cyl to the firewall. The problem was mitsu no longer makes that ssembly so I had to get one from a non-turbo car which does not have the mount for the spring. I talked to a couple of Mitsu techs and the only reason that spring is there is to be a helper, once it gets past a certain point it wants to help the pedal out going to the floor and vice versa on the way back up. I have had no problems without the spring being installed just the clutch is just a tad harder to push down but you get used to it quickly.
I really have no more solutions for the fix....possibly make a longer rod for the slave cyl to make the clutch fork move farther inside the bellhousing thus relieving pressure from the pressure plate/clutch. PLus the shim under the pivot I have heard is a good fix. I have 1 washer underneath mine at the moment, but when the tranny comes out again I will put 2 additional in there.
Oh well...hope your car gets better and so does mine. Later

WGTalon · Jun 10, 2001

Slave cyl

Beware I learned the hard way. If you attempt to shave you slave cyl mounting point be careful DO NOT TAKE ALOT OFF when you remount and work the clutch it will crack and break.....another busted ass design flaw at work....haha later

Lipster · Jun 10, 2001

Re: Spring

WGTalon said:
OK this is my view on the spring. That spring attaches to the assembly under that dash which mounts the master cyl to the firewall. That spring has nothing to do with pedal engagement.

You're right, except in my case it MIGHT be actually interfering with my clutch pedal returning completely.

The other springs we were talking about were located within the bowels of the master and/or slave cylinder.

WGTalon · Jun 10, 2001

OK

You are correct....I was misunderstanding the post

Taboo · Jun 10, 2001

Lipster said:
HOWEVER, I sat and thought about what you were saying about the spring... does a stronger spring with less coils still compress to the same as a weaker spring with more coils? If not, I am VERY MUCH liking what you are saying!

That's one of the ideas: A spring of the same lenght, but will less coils will be shorter (when fully compressed)than similar spring with more coils and consequently allowing the piston travel further. I want to try a stiffer spring 'cause I suspect that the stock spring doesn't return the piston all the way to the end of the cylinder bore (toward the firewall, when one releases the clutch pedal)when the spring gets tired. Then the piston sits let's say 1/2" toward the front of the cylinder, rather then hitting the rear stop 'cause the spring is too weak to push it toward the firewall all the way. Consequently, the piston has much less to travel. I'm talking just about the spring inside the master cylinder. I base the theory just on the service manual pictures and might be completely wrong, but I'll get a master cylinder from a junkyard, take it all apart and find out...

evolution · Jun 11, 2001

hey guys ,, i i have an evolution one and when i bought the car the clutch pedal was very low to the floor i was told it was just the type of clutch,, but after i stuffed the full ceramic clutch ,, i replaced it with a similar ceramic/kevlar type,, when i adjust the fluid rod out i cant get it into gear at all and my mate has the same clutch but no low pedal, the clutch seems to engage and disengage fine ,, but im wondering if this is what stuffed my first clutch?? any one have any ideas??

Taboo · Jun 16, 2001

PROJECT UPDATE
OK, I rebuilt my slave cylinder - just to find out the rubber line was busted as well. I ordered a stainless steel braided line ($20) from RRE and should have it by Tuesday.
Meanwhile I purchased a master cylinder from junkyard ($20), took it all apart and seems like I've finally found the weakest link. It's kinda hard to explain how the master cylinder works, but there's a small spring-loaded plunger covering the reservoir feed (drilled through the bottom of the bore) any time the clutch pedal is depressed. The plunger is supposed to stop the fluid from entering the reservoir (when the clutch pedal is depressed), but the tiny spring pressing the plunger against the feed seems to be too soft to efficiently seal the feed when higher-than-stock pressure in the cylinder and lines is needed (ACT 2600, etc). Simply, let's say 20 psi is needed to disengage the stock clutch, but 40 psi is needed for ACT 2600. The spring is so soft that the plunger can't hold the 40 psi inside the master cylinder and starts "leaking" - 'til the pressure gets down to where the spring is able to make the plunger seal the feed again - let's say 30 psi. And there we have it - an uncomplete clutch disengagement. Adjusting the rod won't do any good 'cause the plunger inside the cylinder just won't hold the pressure needed to disengage the clutch, it will start leaking no matter what adjustments one makes on the outside. I've found a VERY EASY fix and moded the piston assembly to make the plunger seal better, I'll swap the cylinders the next weekend and let you know if it works, I think I might be onto something here...

speeding_gsx · Jun 17, 2001

Hope You're Right

Hey Guys,

I've been following this thread for a while now, and I've decided [although I'm technically not as inclined] that I would throw some encouragement your way.

I just think that you guys are discussing/doing a lot of good things here, and there are a ton of people [including me] that stand to gain from the results of this thread.

Anyway, I'll stay tuned to see how you project turns out Taboo. Hopefully you'll get your clutch problem fixed and provide a means to resolve these aftermarket clutch whoas.

Thanks..

Lipster · Jun 18, 2001

It IS discouraging every other night banging you head off the kick panels, accelerator pedal jammed in the side of your forehead and feet sticking up in the air... I feel like a $10 whore.

I've been playing around now for a while.
I got ahold of some bushings that should go around the pedal's shaft that crosses over through the brake pedal assembly. Mine look to be shot and the whole pedal can wobble around a bit...
I tried to break the lever free from the pedal and could do it! So the best I could do was replace the retention spring and file away more of the metal bracket that holds the spring in place.

I can honestly say I think I feel a difference but not 100% content... I really really wanna get those bushing replaced.

Taboo -
I also have an old master cylinder sitting at my place... let me know what you did and how it worked!! I'm ready to tear that old one apart and rebuild it and do whatever changes you did! And if it works... I'm sending you alcohol!

Taboo · Jun 19, 2001

There MUST be a solution to the damn clutch adjustment. The hydraulic system is NOT that complicated. When I took the master cylinder apart, I thought it'd be much easier - and cheaper - to replace the adjustment rod with a longer bolt from Home Depot (and round its head with a file or grinder) - rather than welding the aditional nut on the bracket.

I also bought a brand new clutch pedal lever (30 bucks, ouch...) and see if I can mod it (weld and re-drill the original hole for the bracket pin) to increase the throw. I'm ready to yank the whole pedal assembly out, eliminate any play and even weld the lever straight on the clutch pedal shaft.

I'm also fabricating an 1/4" longer rod for the slave cylider.

I also thought it'd be interesting to hook up a pressure gauge onto the master cylinder cylinder output and see how much the sucker can really hold and/or if it's leaking the pressure through the reservoir by-pass.

I'm ready to come up with some solution even if I should CNC machine a titanium clutch fork and use hydraulics from a military tank, let's see how the bitch will like THAT...

Lipster · Jun 19, 2001

Do I assume your experiment with the master cylinder didn't work or didnt you do it yet?

Taboo · Jun 19, 2001

No, I didn't do it yet, I moded the cylinder I picked up from the junkyard and will test it this upcoming weekend. My car's still down, waiting for SS braided hose from RRE (should come today). I'll have the results for you by Saturday evening - or maybe even sooner. I basically just put a small spring between the plunger rod (inside the piston body) and the piston, so the more one depresses the clutch, the more the spring will push on the plunger and the more it'll hold the pressure just inside the cylinder without leaking it to the reservoir through the feed hole. If you take the master cylinder and the piston apart, you'll see what I mean. I'll compare the stock unmodified cylinder and the one with the spring and see if the mod really makes some difference...

FRIGGIN CLUTCHES AND SHIFTING! I want REAL ANSWERS!

beerglass

Lipster

sab4you

WGTalon

Taboo

Taboo

Taboo

Lipster

WGTalon

WGTalon

Lipster

WGTalon

Taboo

evolution

Taboo

speeding_gsx

Lipster

Taboo

Lipster

Taboo

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