I Installed a Front Mount intercooler and 2 1/2 inch tubing, on a 1st gen stock 14b turbo and noticed This. It friggin rips like 3 to 5 1/2 grand then seems to not quite pull as hard to redline. It jumps to like 19 or 20 lbs from 3 to 5 1/2 then after 5 1/2 it holds 15 steady. Is this Normal because of the bigger tubing and small turbo or what?
Front Mount/Boost questions
talonandyotas
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Ran it at the track. I have ported head, um ported 2g exh. mani and 02 housing, ported 14b, the intercooler has 2 1/2" tubing and the fmic is like 27 long by 7 tall by 3 thick. MBC, HKS intake,2.5 downpipe and exhaust no cat. I turned the boost down to 18 to be safe. ARPs, 2g pistons on 6 bolt.
THis part ur gonna like, I barely lost to an EVO 8 that was running 22 lbs and had a bunch of goodies like Standalone fuel, clutch, and full exhaust. My front bumper was pretty much even with his rear bumper. Now if I get more experience, that was my first time at the track. Gonna try a little race gas next time. Yeah
THis part ur gonna like, I barely lost to an EVO 8 that was running 22 lbs and had a bunch of goodies like Standalone fuel, clutch, and full exhaust. My front bumper was pretty much even with his rear bumper. Now if I get more experience, that was my first time at the track. Gonna try a little race gas next time. Yeah
This is normal for all small turbo's The 14b turbo is only good to withstand around 270 hp. A great increase in boost levels on the stock turbo will not yeild great results. In order for large boost levels to be sustained, not spiked, you must have a medium sized turbo charger. As a medium sized turbocharger is the most effiecient turbo for street use. Also when upgrading to a larger turbo like the 16g not the small 16g or an 18g turbo, some kind of ecu upgrade MUST be made. More boost more fuel. More air more fuel. May i suggest a book for you too read? The name of the book is called MAXIMUM BOOST by Corkey Bell. He has been a turbo kit manufacturer and kit designer for the better part of 30 years. This book offers a lot of information on upgrading and sizing and designing custom turbo kits. Read it if you choose to. You will enjoy it.talonandyotas said:
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RippinGSX, I have to say I don't think you know what you're talking about. You seem to be defending your untested personal opinion just because you can't stand being wrong, even in the face of the personal experience of many people, several of whom have posted in this very thread.
I pushed my 14b as hard as I think I could have on the stock sidemount. I ran a 12.8 at 105.5 on the stock sidemount, 16 psi and pump gas (and this on crappy 14" tires and 1.8 sixties). I could not tune the car to run more than 15 psi without at least a little knock in 4th because the stock sidemount heatsoaked that quickly. I built my own kit with a large e-bay core and welded up my own piping, and came out under 500 dollars total even with a non-short-route piping setup and silicone couplers with t-bolt clamps all throughout the system. (Expensive $$$). I haven't yet been back to the track, but I'm now running 20 pounds of boost falling to around 16 by redline, with zero knock, leaner AFR, and more timing, and the car is a hell of a lot faster. And yes, the car is much faster on 20 psi than 17 psi- with the big front mount cooling down the charge air temps, I can ride the extra torque in the 3.5k to 5.5k range. If you look at any of the people who run really fast on these smaller turbos, they basically run as much boost as the turbo can put out. ShapeGSX and Tom Noonen ride 30 psi spikes down to 24 psi on their Evo16gs, Joe Bucci is pumping all the boost the 14b can make. Yes, that is on race gas, but when I can run 20 psi with reasonable timing and afr on pump and no knock, running less is not going to make more power.
I pushed my 14b as hard as I think I could have on the stock sidemount. I ran a 12.8 at 105.5 on the stock sidemount, 16 psi and pump gas (and this on crappy 14" tires and 1.8 sixties). I could not tune the car to run more than 15 psi without at least a little knock in 4th because the stock sidemount heatsoaked that quickly. I built my own kit with a large e-bay core and welded up my own piping, and came out under 500 dollars total even with a non-short-route piping setup and silicone couplers with t-bolt clamps all throughout the system. (Expensive $$$). I haven't yet been back to the track, but I'm now running 20 pounds of boost falling to around 16 by redline, with zero knock, leaner AFR, and more timing, and the car is a hell of a lot faster. And yes, the car is much faster on 20 psi than 17 psi- with the big front mount cooling down the charge air temps, I can ride the extra torque in the 3.5k to 5.5k range. If you look at any of the people who run really fast on these smaller turbos, they basically run as much boost as the turbo can put out. ShapeGSX and Tom Noonen ride 30 psi spikes down to 24 psi on their Evo16gs, Joe Bucci is pumping all the boost the 14b can make. Yes, that is on race gas, but when I can run 20 psi with reasonable timing and afr on pump and no knock, running less is not going to make more power.
I must say i love how you've completely missed what i said. Never did i state the fact that boost loss in high rpm range on the stock turbo was because of an insufficient intercooler. i merely stated that without a tune by say a super afcII and without a larger turbo will cause you too loose boost. Small turbos are not sufficient for holding large amounts of boost. Never did i say boost loss was caused by the intercooler. A front mount intercooler will only loose a pound or so. not 5. 270 hp to the wheels will easily push any dsm into the high 12's or low 13's with a good tuning from a standalone or piggyback ecu upgrade. From my turbo spyder i am spiking and sustaining 20 pounds of boost out of the evo III 16g turbo, hallman manual boost controller and Super AFC II well tuned by a couple of professional tuners from the Boston Mass area. With 281.64hp and 285.21 ft/pds of torque at the front wheels. And last time on the track with the stock intercooler i ran a 13.295 @ 104.7 mph. In order to sustain as much boost as possible you must atleast chip it to redesign the fuel curve. For if your car has one, the boost controller solenoid will take over and manipulate the watsegate actuator and turn the boost levels down through the computer. Read the book Maximum Boost like i said. Then YOU will know what YOU are talking about. Its available at barnes and noble. Until you buy and read this book, i am now considering this matter closed!Unregistered said:
Did you try a much more economical MKIV IC?? Did you miss that or something?? I'm not going to continue to argue this. FMIC is a waste of cash on a 14b. I am currently running an MKIV IC with my EVO16G at 24lbs with no heatsoak problems. Why try and push a little 14b that far anyway?? Just so you can get your name on times.org with a 14b at the top of the list?? Big freakin deal.Unregistered said:
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i wouldnt waste $1000 on a race core FMIC for my 14b. 14b is good for like 250ish HP. a $100 MKIV SMIC would be enough.
also, pushing 20+ psi out of a 14b is useless.
also, pushing 20+ psi out of a 14b is useless.
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well peolpe that spend a grand on intercoolers are f-in stupid anyways, i go with the cheepo 100 dollar fmic's, and they work wonderfull, don't post and say that they are junk, because that has been proven other wise. I can seriously justify spending 100 bucks on a front mount, and spend close to nothing to build my own piping. That is far worth having the fmic, over the others, it isn't every day that you come across a supra sidemount for 100 bucks also. IF would be cheaper in the long run to just buy the cheep front mount and build your own piping, and not have to worry about having the endtanks swapped and so on. Why is everyone arguing about this, this was never a forum about if spending a grand on a front mount is a good idea for a 14b, just a front mount in general. Not 1k, not 800, not 500, shit not 150, 100 bucks or less you can have a nice front mount, shit people spend more on fucing air filters, which are absolutly pointless (hks junk) why not spend 75-100 on a front mount.
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I didn't miss it, I just ignored it because it was mostly nonsensical and irrelevant. I fully understand the concept of smaller turbos running out of steam at high RPM. I've got a pretty good concept of how to tune, as well, and not with a crappy SAFC. I rom tune the car- I burn my own chips with full fuel and timing control. Also, that book is about 5 years out of date now, and I've never seen anybody post anything about its contents that leads me to believe it's some magical font of information that I don't already know.spidergst said:
I've known about the MKIV IC for as long as I've been on this board, and it only interested me when I was shooting for a 13 second run as the end goal for the car. I think it's a capable cooler for a 16g car, but I also think a good front mount setup is better and worth the relatively small premium over a Supra IC. To put together a cheap ebay front mount and piping setup might cost 300 dollars as compared to 150-200 dollars total on the Supra IC install (assuming you're not just going to toss it in there with a combination of cut-up stock hoses- not my idea of a quality install.) I spent more because I wanted a different pipe routing and better couplers and clamps. I don't think you can argue that a sidemount functions better than a front mount, and at that point, all you're advocating is going cheap when going cheap doesn't save you much money and does reduce performance.RippinGSX said:
I'm pushing my 14b because it's the turbo I have on the car right now, and to me the whole point of modifying and tuning cars is to get the most out your setup. To me, upgrading to a bigger turbo won't be satisfying until I've wrung all of the performance potential out of the stocker. I'm going to run a low 12 on pump before I'm done with this turbo because I enjoy the process of getting it there.
And to die-civic-die, I've already proven to myself that a 14b is faster on 20psi than on lower boost. I don't think I'll convince anybody else, but I'm the only one that needs convincing when it's my car I'm dealing with. The 14b has done considerably more than 250whp- try several cars over 300 whp, with the highest dyno I've seen being almost 320 whp. All of them cranking at least 22-23 psi out of it, some of them cranking out all it could give.
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Anyways, If your running a front mount on a 14b, theres always the chance you'll upgrade the turbo. Thats why I got mine, because I know i'm gonna go bigger turbo wise soon, My turbos on its way out... I wanna get a 12 sec slip on the 14b before I retire, which should be easy at the point I'm at. I know the FMIC help me tons with the 14b, so of course I'm gonna defend it. $400 for a $800+ kit, good for me.
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foshigity digity
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RippinGSX:
The 14b, to your mind, went from “too small for a front mount,” to:
- pretty much a waste of money (installing a front mount with it, that is), to;
- too small to even bother with a front mount (because “there will be no gains or real benefits), to;
- not supply[ing] enough pressure to warrant a front mount and a regular 16g isn't even up to par with a front mount, to;
- not warrant[ing] a front mount, period, to;
- spending a ridiculous amount of money on an FMIC to support your ungodly 14b is just plain silly. Just as much power can be made on a bigger side mount with a 14b.
Notice how no where in your tirades have you actually defended your claims with empirical evidence nor addressed the evidence provided to the contrary. You simply continued to repeat the same tired lines that, apparently, you have heard before and taken for fact. It seems that, for you, there is no need to reconsider the validity of this claim in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
In response to the claim that “just as much power can be made” with a bigger side mount (and a 14b), I implore you to review the information on greatest power outputs on a 14b and what IC were used with these setups.
In response to the claim that a front mount intercooler kit is somehow “ridiculously expensive,” I wonder where you are purchasing your cores from, because every FMIC kit I’ve purchased or put together has cost between $110 and $400.
The benefits of installing a front mount while utilizing a 14b are indisputable (unless you’re unaware of the benefits and thus shooting blindly) and thus, I suppose, the question is whether it is worth the cost for the gains. I think so, you may not, although that’s not the claim you’re making. Rather, your claim is that the 14b is simply too small to see benefits from a front mount (over a side mount), along with it not being cost effective for the gains that you don’t believe are possible. The first claim is false, and that should be clear at this point. The second claim (assuming there are benefits), is arguable.
Interestingly, your initial claim – at the onset of this thread – was that his boost drop off issues were a result of the 14b being too small for a front mount intercooler. Well, assuming you were right that a 14b is too small for a front mount (although we have established this is not the case), this is not a valid explanation for why the 14b boost level drops off at top end. Again, you’re full of it.
The 14b, to your mind, went from “too small for a front mount,” to:
- pretty much a waste of money (installing a front mount with it, that is), to;
- too small to even bother with a front mount (because “there will be no gains or real benefits), to;
- not supply[ing] enough pressure to warrant a front mount and a regular 16g isn't even up to par with a front mount, to;
- not warrant[ing] a front mount, period, to;
- spending a ridiculous amount of money on an FMIC to support your ungodly 14b is just plain silly. Just as much power can be made on a bigger side mount with a 14b.
Notice how no where in your tirades have you actually defended your claims with empirical evidence nor addressed the evidence provided to the contrary. You simply continued to repeat the same tired lines that, apparently, you have heard before and taken for fact. It seems that, for you, there is no need to reconsider the validity of this claim in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
In response to the claim that “just as much power can be made” with a bigger side mount (and a 14b), I implore you to review the information on greatest power outputs on a 14b and what IC were used with these setups.
In response to the claim that a front mount intercooler kit is somehow “ridiculously expensive,” I wonder where you are purchasing your cores from, because every FMIC kit I’ve purchased or put together has cost between $110 and $400.
The benefits of installing a front mount while utilizing a 14b are indisputable (unless you’re unaware of the benefits and thus shooting blindly) and thus, I suppose, the question is whether it is worth the cost for the gains. I think so, you may not, although that’s not the claim you’re making. Rather, your claim is that the 14b is simply too small to see benefits from a front mount (over a side mount), along with it not being cost effective for the gains that you don’t believe are possible. The first claim is false, and that should be clear at this point. The second claim (assuming there are benefits), is arguable.
Interestingly, your initial claim – at the onset of this thread – was that his boost drop off issues were a result of the 14b being too small for a front mount intercooler. Well, assuming you were right that a 14b is too small for a front mount (although we have established this is not the case), this is not a valid explanation for why the 14b boost level drops off at top end. Again, you’re full of it.
There's a good bit of emotion being tossed around here, I'm going to give my own input here trying to be unemotional though. 
Firstly, I don't understand why you insist that a FMIC is worthless on a 14b. The idea behind an intercooler is to dissipate heat, whether it be a large FMIC, a small side mount, or an air/water cooler, they all have the same end concept underlying them. Pressure drop within an intercooler is simply a measurement of its restriction to volumetric flowrate, something that within intercooler piping is only a factor of your cubic inch displacement and your rpm that you are currently running at. For this reason, friction aside, the pressure drop within the intercooler will be identical for a 14b vs a T67 at the same rpm point within that intercooler. The restriction is heavily based on the cross sectional area within the intercooler, and for that reason a FMIC generally has a lower pressure drop than a small stock sidemount would. This right there gives the added benefit of raising the manifold pressure, reducing the work needed by the turbo and reducing intake temps. In addition, a FMIC has a large facial area compared to that of a sidemount. This large facial area drastically has an effect on the efficiency of the intercooler as obviously the thicker the cooler is, the hotter the air has become passing through it. So for the same volume intercooler you'd want ideally a very large facial area to increase its efficiency as much as possible for the given volume. Since the end idea for an intercooler is to simply cool the incoming air, it would stand to reason that regardless of what turbo you are running, the dissipation of heat within an intercooler is mainly a factor of the air temperature (disregarding density changes due to higher pressures of say 29psi etc for the large turbos). If the 14b runs on it's edge at 17, then the more efficient intercooler would help it. The efficiency slope of a 14b begins dropping off quite heavily as the pressure goes upcompared to a larger turbo, but regardless, the 14b still benefits from an intercooler. For these reasons, just to name a few, I don't see how the argument for a FMIC can't be made for a 14b.
Intercoolers don't necessarily have to cost an arm and a leg. I put down the numbers that I have in my signature on a 180 dollar ebay cooler, and piping can be easily sourced. Hell many ebay kits are all of 250 bucks nowadays. A well setup front mount will beat the supra SMIC, I would definately attest to that. It's a great mod, but that was mainly back when FMIC's really were 800 dollars+. Remember, I was the first person on this board to do the Supra SMIC and talk about it.
Also, "AN" is an article used precursing when you have a vowel starting the following word. "A" is used all othertimes. Susie installed "AN" intercooler, while Billy was using "A" front mount intercooler. Be sure you know your grammar before you bash others.
Firstly, I don't understand why you insist that a FMIC is worthless on a 14b. The idea behind an intercooler is to dissipate heat, whether it be a large FMIC, a small side mount, or an air/water cooler, they all have the same end concept underlying them. Pressure drop within an intercooler is simply a measurement of its restriction to volumetric flowrate, something that within intercooler piping is only a factor of your cubic inch displacement and your rpm that you are currently running at. For this reason, friction aside, the pressure drop within the intercooler will be identical for a 14b vs a T67 at the same rpm point within that intercooler. The restriction is heavily based on the cross sectional area within the intercooler, and for that reason a FMIC generally has a lower pressure drop than a small stock sidemount would. This right there gives the added benefit of raising the manifold pressure, reducing the work needed by the turbo and reducing intake temps. In addition, a FMIC has a large facial area compared to that of a sidemount. This large facial area drastically has an effect on the efficiency of the intercooler as obviously the thicker the cooler is, the hotter the air has become passing through it. So for the same volume intercooler you'd want ideally a very large facial area to increase its efficiency as much as possible for the given volume. Since the end idea for an intercooler is to simply cool the incoming air, it would stand to reason that regardless of what turbo you are running, the dissipation of heat within an intercooler is mainly a factor of the air temperature (disregarding density changes due to higher pressures of say 29psi etc for the large turbos). If the 14b runs on it's edge at 17, then the more efficient intercooler would help it. The efficiency slope of a 14b begins dropping off quite heavily as the pressure goes upcompared to a larger turbo, but regardless, the 14b still benefits from an intercooler. For these reasons, just to name a few, I don't see how the argument for a FMIC can't be made for a 14b.
Intercoolers don't necessarily have to cost an arm and a leg. I put down the numbers that I have in my signature on a 180 dollar ebay cooler, and piping can be easily sourced. Hell many ebay kits are all of 250 bucks nowadays. A well setup front mount will beat the supra SMIC, I would definately attest to that. It's a great mod, but that was mainly back when FMIC's really were 800 dollars+. Remember, I was the first person on this board to do the Supra SMIC and talk about it
.Also, "AN" is an article used precursing when you have a vowel starting the following word. "A" is used all othertimes. Susie installed "AN" intercooler, while Billy was using "A" front mount intercooler. Be sure you know your grammar before you bash others.
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