what is the max boost a rebuilt STOCK 6 bolt can handle? thanks, tim
Max Boost
nine1eclipse
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Joined
·
74 Posts
what is the max boost a rebuilt STOCK 6 bolt can handle? thanks, tim
Joined
·
5,734 Posts
Boost is relative, properly tuned/with supporting mods a 6 bolt could take 30psi, poorly tuned or without sufficient supporting mods it could blow up at 10. Start reading, there is plenty of data on what these engines can take and how to get the most out of them reliably.
Joined
·
74 Posts
besides the fuel upgrades, what else would i have to get if i planned on 20-25 psi? im planning on a SBR head and comp cams for the top end
Joined
·
6,783 Posts
How could a dsm fuck up at 10 psi? Isn't that around stock boost? Couldn't the ecu handle that? Not to go against you, I'd just like to learn how a healthy car could go wrong at stock boost. thank you
Joined
·
6,783 Posts
^oh i see... lol.. he said on a rebuilt 6 block so i was assuming that it was in good working condition.
Joined
·
1,724 Posts
I've seen 23PSI on mine!!
Joined
·
5,734 Posts
10psi on a large turbo will move alot more air than a stock 14b at 30psi so if you dont have the fuel mods, properly sized ic, exhaust and ic pipes, and tuned right it could easily blow up at 10psi.french_hustler said:
Healthy 6 bolts are known to hold 450-500hp properly tuned and supported.
FWIW I had the wg line melt off my tial 44 at least 3 times (now its wrapped in some heat sheilding material) and I couldn't figure out why the car was stuttering. Well I eventually figured it out why my passenger asked how much boost I was running because I had told him 21 and he said my 30psi boost gauge was pegged out when I got on it. It didn't seem to bother it since I had plenty of fuel but my spark plugs weren't up to the task. The higher pressure and being gapped fairly wide for that much boost blew the spark out and caused a miss. This was with 880cc injectors, td06 20g turbo, and stock internals with 175k miles.
Joined
·
6,783 Posts
^oh snap... i wasn't thinking about a bigger injector flowing more... okay... i get it now... thanks.
Joined
·
39 Posts
so, im a noob and i don't quite understand why then would people go buy a bigger turbo, or like the 16G turbo if you can produce the same power with what you have?
Joined
·
145 Posts
Since he didn't answer your question...Skywalker0150 said:
The reason for upgrading a turbo is to run more boost at lower heat levels ie. more efficiently.
The 14b is rated to what? like 16psi EFFICIENTLY? the 16g is somewhere around 22 efficiently and the 20g I've seen run in the range of 30psi.
Effieciently being the key word... before it makes so much heat it hurts performance more than it helps, ie. why alot of stock cars run just as good at 14psi as 18psi on a 14b.
Don't quote me on those boost numbers, they are an educated guess. But this is the reason for turbo upgrades. As well as intercooler upgrades.
Joined
·
11,002 Posts
Actually what you're saying holds about 20% relevance to the subject.
Its not the amount of boost that a turbo is upgraded for people.
HP is not relevant to how many PSI's omg1!11 you stuff into an engine.
Turbo's are upgraded for higher flow rates.
Take psi and use it only as a measurement of how hard the turbo is working.
Also consider it as how much air related cylinder pressure you're adding.
* more on that in a second.
If we're talking power and turbo upgrades we need to start seeing how much air a turbo can flow. lbs/min lbs/hr Not how much pressure... pressure isn't "cool" or good.
Pressure is for all intents and purposes BAD. PSI is pressure fella's.
Volume is often easier to understand when we use liquids. But similar rules apply to air. Its the equivalent of adding a bigger pump. It flows more at the same pressure.
For example.
On a 14b. I've seen airflow numbers in the 2.7 g/rev (grams a revolution)
This is around 20 psi
On a 16g These numbers can be seen at 16-17ish psi.
Same amount of air. Less pressure needed to move it.
Which brings us back into efficiency. About the only thing the guy above had remotely right. Every turbo has its operating range. If we're still considering PSI as how hard the turbo is working... then thats whats typically assigned as its "max work load" or max boost.
As he said, when you push it out of its range, it starts making more heat than dense packed air. Leading to higher intake temps, knock, and a decreasing gain in power for each PSI added.
Now before I pop an artery... your numbers were just retarded.
Even a T-25 can stay in the top edge of its efficiency at 17-18 psi.
With a better exhaust wheel... a 14b can take 20. Healthy... even more.
Now a 16g shares the same exhaust housing. So it shouldn't be any different.
Except the compressor housing is so much more efficient... you can indeed take them further.
:end lesson:
Now, can I hear someone talking about lbs/min instead of PSI...
Its not the amount of boost that a turbo is upgraded for people.
HP is not relevant to how many PSI's omg1!11 you stuff into an engine.
Turbo's are upgraded for higher flow rates.
Take psi and use it only as a measurement of how hard the turbo is working.
Also consider it as how much air related cylinder pressure you're adding.
* more on that in a second.
If we're talking power and turbo upgrades we need to start seeing how much air a turbo can flow. lbs/min lbs/hr Not how much pressure... pressure isn't "cool" or good.
Pressure is for all intents and purposes BAD. PSI is pressure fella's.
Volume is often easier to understand when we use liquids. But similar rules apply to air. Its the equivalent of adding a bigger pump. It flows more at the same pressure.
For example.
On a 14b. I've seen airflow numbers in the 2.7 g/rev (grams a revolution)
This is around 20 psi
On a 16g These numbers can be seen at 16-17ish psi.
Same amount of air. Less pressure needed to move it.
Which brings us back into efficiency. About the only thing the guy above had remotely right. Every turbo has its operating range. If we're still considering PSI as how hard the turbo is working... then thats whats typically assigned as its "max work load" or max boost.
As he said, when you push it out of its range, it starts making more heat than dense packed air. Leading to higher intake temps, knock, and a decreasing gain in power for each PSI added.
Now before I pop an artery... your numbers were just retarded.
Even a T-25 can stay in the top edge of its efficiency at 17-18 psi.
With a better exhaust wheel... a 14b can take 20. Healthy... even more.
Now a 16g shares the same exhaust housing. So it shouldn't be any different.
Except the compressor housing is so much more efficient... you can indeed take them further.
:end lesson:
Now, can I hear someone talking about lbs/min instead of PSI...
Joined
·
145 Posts
Oh, your right, horsepower isn't relevant at all to how much boost you have... because you know, everyone leaves the car at stock boost instead of turning it up to 15, because, well, it doesn't make any more hp. sorry, i'll let everyone know.Asmodeus said:
HMMM higher flow rates... ie. more efficiently because of less heat???
Hmm, lbs a min or lbs an hour... isn't this back into the effeciency part... I mean any turbo can crank out 30psi, but the heat generated from this is so much it would detonate at 20btdc on a t25. Maybe you should re-read what I posted...
Now, I KNOW your not trying to tell everyone here that a 14b at 10psi and a 16g at 10psi is Diferent... the 16g and 14b in the 14b's EFFICIENT operating range IS THE EXACT F***ING SAME other than the increased lag from the 16g spooling from a go. And thanks for elaborating on EVERYTHING I SAID just in other words and with a JACKA** MANNER.
Now before I pop an artery... your numbers were just retarded.
Even a T-25 can stay in the top edge of its efficiency at 17-18 psi.
With a better exhaust wheel... a 14b can take 20. Healthy... even more.
Now a 16g shares the same exhaust housing. So it shouldn't be any different.
Except the compressor housing is so much more efficient... you can indeed take them further.
:end lesson:
Now, can I hear someone talking about lbs/min instead of PSI...
And I seriously think you should point out where I was talking about efficiency ranges with upgraded wheels/housings/porting/clipping ??? wtf does that have to do with anything???
please do not respond like an IGNORANT A** to the rest of my posts.
Furthermore, I've read over 50 of your "helpfull posts" since isn't that what the forums are for??? HELPING PEOPLE?
And to my surprise, 90% of what you say is sarcastic, ignorant and just trying to bash other less insightful people than yourself, or "newbies" that don't know what they are doing.
Thanks to the likes of you, sir, is the reason people are afraid to post questions. :chair:
To the rest of you. Sorry for hijacking the thread to give in to "the guy in the above post"
Joined
·
145 Posts
Sean485 said:
THIS WAS WHAT I WAS RESPONDING TO...
Thanks for saying it even had 20% relevance to the question
Joined
·
11,002 Posts
Thats exactly what I'm saying dipshit.
The 16g shares the same turbine housing.
But not the compressor housing.
Therin changing the dynamics and flow rates of the turbo.
Its basically a hopped up version of the 14b from a design standpoint.
This is funny you say all this here, then at the bottom say a small turbo and a big turbo are different at the same level of boost.
<which is actually correct>
I think you just wanted to scream and yell.
Good for you.
And as far as elaborating on everything you just said, what do you expect?
When you post a hit and miss post. Someone has to dig thru the bullshit and clarify.
Again, horse power has to do with flow rates measured in rpm of the turbine housing. Laymans is psi off the compressor housing.
Go look at any turbo manufacturers spread sheet.
Turbonetics is a good example. How they show the tiers of flow vs estimated capable horse power.
PSI is the side bar on said compressor map.
relating efficiency islands to flow charachteristics.
Dont' act like you can get all angry and suddenly be right.
You're not.
This isn't what I said at all. Just a mundane understanding and a twisted interpretation on your part.
In actuality, you could put a bigger turbo on, run factory boost. And still make more power. Which was my simplified example to show the relation between flow... and horse power.
What you make will be determined by the efficiency of your engine and the ability to maintain air/fuel mixture.
Not PSI.
get your shit straight, before you come correcting me and getting all butt hurt.
No higher flow rates = more air molecules being moved.
Not heat. Physically more air.
As air becomes less dense from heat, thats when efficiency falls off.
efficiency not flow.
It in effect starts to counteract the pressurizing ability of the turbo on a small scale. But this is way way up. Off the map almost. Long before you get here, the heat itself will increase intake temps to preignition levels.
Close but no cigar.
No this was a direct correlation to FLOW you're STILL NOT GETTING IT!
You turned it into efficiency again... you are obviously confused...
I made that one perfectly clear with a fluid dynamics example...
How did you miss that one?
completely left field.
16g unmodified flows more air at the same psi as a 14b.
It has a larger inlet, compressor wheel, and inducer.
clipping simply elevates its ability to maintain efficiency in the upper rpm ranges.
I think you need some turbo study before you post.
I can seriously pull logs off my DSMlink between a 14b @ given psi and the actual GRAMS of air per revolution in DIRECT comparison to an evoIII 16g completely unported or clipped. And SHOW you at the SAME psi... more air is being shoved into the engine...
Things you would know if you had done any of this before.
Which is why I post this... and you shouldn't.
blah blah blah, I'm butt hurt... don't yell back at me... I wanna feel like I told you off by completely distorting facts off my bad interpretation of things I know little about... my uncle touches me... blah blah blah... blah blah... blah blah blah.
And my final statement to you.
If you can't take the heat.
Get out of hell.
By the way. Welcome to hell...
Joined
·
11,002 Posts
This is the final thing I never got back to.
cylinder pressures.
By increasing PSI YO !!11111!!!
You increase the amount of pressure in the cylinder.
Good right?
yes and no.
Yes because you got more air in there.
No because more pessure = more stress on everything it touches.
But also lets not forget... that pressurized air is ALSO compressed by the piston further! This is where things can get seriously rediculous.
So if we can flow more volume.
(more air, not more pressure)
We can run things safer, and still make gobs of power.
Same theory as a high volume fuel pump.
more gas, same pressure.
These things you may not really think about in 14b land.
But when you start thumping 28 psi out of a turbo... and you find yourself with stutters because you're physically BLOWING the spark out.
Or blowing the bottom end out... or floating the head...
You'll get what I'm saying.
You're running the boost to push more air.
While a bigger turbo would flow more air at a lower psi. (pressure)
But, you must balance this with spool time, and rpm range.
THIS is why its a give and take situation.
Not more PSI = more hp yo !!111 111!
Bringing me back to... more flow = more hp.
There are multiple factors in play...
But thats the key.
Period.
cylinder pressures.
By increasing PSI YO !!11111!!!
You increase the amount of pressure in the cylinder.
Good right?
yes and no.
Yes because you got more air in there.
No because more pessure = more stress on everything it touches.
But also lets not forget... that pressurized air is ALSO compressed by the piston further! This is where things can get seriously rediculous.
So if we can flow more volume.
(more air, not more pressure)
We can run things safer, and still make gobs of power.
Same theory as a high volume fuel pump.
more gas, same pressure.
These things you may not really think about in 14b land.
But when you start thumping 28 psi out of a turbo... and you find yourself with stutters because you're physically BLOWING the spark out.
Or blowing the bottom end out... or floating the head...
You'll get what I'm saying.
You're running the boost to push more air.
While a bigger turbo would flow more air at a lower psi. (pressure)
But, you must balance this with spool time, and rpm range.
THIS is why its a give and take situation.
Not more PSI = more hp yo !!111 111!
Bringing me back to... more flow = more hp.
There are multiple factors in play...
But thats the key.
Period.
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
