Dry vs. Wet/Direct port

boost4141 · Mar 12, 2007

Ok I know the difference between them, so dont post trying to tell me about the setups.
What I want to know is why everyone I talk to is against a dry shot. Everyone is saying dont do a dry 100 shot. Isnt it fine to run a dry shot if you have the injectors to support the nitrous??
Setup is a Zex dry kit 100 shot. Tap in to the intercooler pipe after the bov a little bit from the TB. Gonna be running a 35r with 1200cc injectors twin wally 255 fuel pumps and aeromotive fpr tunning with the aem ems.

I just want to know why, I keep hearing that this is not a safe setup to run vs. a wet setup? Dont just tell me either that it is more safe that way, I want to know why my setup will not be good and should I have to go wet????

Thanks
Dustin

drcustom · Mar 12, 2007

I think you're right that you'll have enough fuel, and it looks like you'll be able to tune just fine, but if something went wrong and your current fuel system somehow didn't compensate, then things would go really wrong really fast. On the other hand a wet setup doesn't rely on anything - when there's nitrous the extra fuel is there. All you need to worry about is having enough fuel pressure.

As for converting to wet, I don't think you'd need anything except the fuel lines, fuel solenoid, and a wet nozzle...I might be wrong about this, but looking at my wet kit I don't see how there could be anything else involved.

boost4141 · Mar 12, 2007

Your right, but thats just saying if my rock solid fuel system failed right?
But on a wet I hear lots of stories of fuel solenoids failing also. If that fails motor is toast right?
I have been arguing with a few people about this setup, im just trying to find a good reason why not to run this dry kit. I have yet to hear one. Besides what if a injector goes out etc.
But dont get it twisted im not scared to run nitrous just trying to find out why I shouldnt run a dry kit..

drcustom · Mar 12, 2007

I definitely understand what you're saying, and it makes sense.

In your case if a solenoid goes then your fuel system may still compensate, or maybe you'll at least have time to catch it...whereas with a dry kit you don't have that extra little piece of insurance. Heck, you could look at it from the other side and say that a wet kit just has one more component that could go fail.

I think the idea is just to make sure that you have a better chance of a good outcome when things go wrong. It seems like you've got a solid setup and could feel a little better about a dry kit though.

I think a lot of people want to run nitrous without all the prep work that you've done - that's where a wet kit is ideal, because you don't need injectors and other things that can handle the extra demand.

I did a ton of research on this a while ago, and decided a direct port wet kit is the way to go...it was a while ago and I don't remember the details, but I do remember thinking it was a bit safer than a standard wet kit.

This really isn't an area that I have much experience with, but it has been an interest of mine for quite some time. Hopefully what I've said helps...but I don't think the engine cares how you get the fuel to it.

boost4141 said:
Your right, but thats just saying if my rock solid fuel system failed right?
But on a wet I hear lots of stories of fuel solenoids failing also. If that fails motor is toast right?
I have been arguing with a few people about this setup, im just trying to find a good reason not to run this dry kit. I have yet to hear one. Besides what if a injector goes out etc.
But dont get it twisted im not scared to run nitrous just trying to find out why shouldnt run a dry kit..

Asmodeus · Mar 12, 2007

To reliably supply the added fuel necessary for the No2... the dry kits just raise fp. Your fpr already does this for every lb of boost you run.
Do I have to continue... or did you already see where I'm going with this.

It would be one thing on an engine/turbo setup not running 30psi like you will be.

But at 30psi... you will be at 73psi fp. Now how much more fp will you need to cover a 100 shot? See the problem yet?

This is why you don't use dry kits on a turbo car.
As long as you have enough volume to cover 2 fuel sources, the wet kit puts no additional stress on your fuel system.

How is this even a debate?

Someone with enough knowledge to build and run the setup you say you have should already know this. Especially someone coming across the way you are about it. I say run it. And when shit goes terribly wrong under a heavy shot you will see exactly WHY you need to run a wet kit.

~And don't even get me started on shitty distribution on something like a 100shot in an IC pipe...

Or, the fact you do not need a 100shot on a GT35R. A 50 shot will likely GET you 100hp from the cooling effect on a turbocharged car. This is a prime example of why people new to nitrous should start with a 35 shot... and go from there. Lest they hurt themselves.

FYI if a fuel solenoid or injector (such as jamming up from all the pressure you want it run on a dry kit) fucks up under a 100 shot you will not catch it. You will be fucked. It will take all of one second.
However, you can simply install a relay between the solenoids so that if the fuel is out, it cuts the no2 as well.

K_Mans_TSI · Mar 12, 2007

It doesn't matter what type of setup you go with, keep in mind you'll have to add fuel with the dry kit anyway. The difference being you'll be adding fuel with your tune vs adding fuel automatically with a wet style.

What this means is if you're not using your nitrous you'll have to have a different tune. (as the kits to raise fuel pressure are going to cause you more problems)

It's not a sticking nitrous solenoid that is the problem so much as a sticking fuel solenoid. Nitrous is non-flammable, fuel puddling in your intake is a bad thing.

boost4141 · Mar 12, 2007

I think that I figured out what im gonna do. Im gonna go with the dry kit and run it with the nitrous map on the aem. So I will have the aem ems take care of the added fuel needed with the dry shot and will also retard timing as well. No changing of maps or anything, just wire the n2o in to the aem. When the aem see`s the n2o is activated it will compensate with the nitrous map. No worry of failing solenoids.

K_Mans_TSI · Mar 12, 2007

Solenoids fail because they stick, the management you use does not make a difference.

boost4141 · Mar 12, 2007

K_Mans_TSI said:
It's not a sticking nitrous solenoid that is the problem so much as a sticking fuel solenoid. Nitrous is non-flammable, fuel puddling in your intake is a bad thing.

Yes im aware of that, ie nitrous backfire. Its not the nitrous its the fuel.

boost4141 · Mar 12, 2007

Asmodeus said:
To reliably supply the added fuel necessary for the No2... the dry kits just raise fp. Your fpr already does this for every lb of boost you run.
Do I have to continue... or did you already see where I'm going with this.

It would be one thing on an engine/turbo setup not running 30psi like you will be.

But at 30psi... you will be at 73psi fp. Now how much more fp will you need to cover a 100 shot? See the problem yet?

This is why you don't use dry kits on a turbo car.
As long as you have enough volume to cover 2 fuel sources, the wet kit puts no additional stress on your fuel system.

How is this even a debate?
Someone with enough knowledge to build and run the setup you say you have should already know this. Especially someone coming across the way you are about it. I say run it. And when shit goes terribly wrong under a heavy shot you will see exactly WHY you need to run a wet kit.

~And don't even get me started on shitty distribution on something like a 100shot in an IC pipe... Or, the fact you do not need a 100shot on a GT35R. A 50 shot will likely GET you 100hp from the cooling effect on a turbocharged car. This is a prime example of why people new to nitrous should start with a 35 shot... and go from there. Lest they hurt themselves.

FYI if a fuel solenoid or injector (such as jamming up from all the pressure you want it run on a dry kit) fucks up under a 100 shot you will not catch it. You will be fucked. It will take all of one second.
However, you can simply install a relay between the solenoids so that if the fuel is out, it cuts the no2 as well.

I`m totally aware of everything you are saying, but on the aem and the fuel setup that i`m running I don`t see the need to run a wet kit. Because of the aem, how ever have you ever tuned or used one before? You would know that the aem has a nitrous map that will compensate and add fuel and retard timing when the nitrous is activated.

But what you said is right running a dry kit on a turbo car is not good if you have no way to tune for it such as a aem. Stock ecu car would only mean trouble.

drcustom · Mar 12, 2007

boost4141 said:
I think that I figured out what im gonna do. Im gonna go with the dry kit and run it with the nitrous map on the aem. So I will have the aem ems take care of the added fuel needed with the dry shot and will also retard timing as well. No changing of maps or anything, just wire the n2o in to the aem. When the aem see`s the n2o is activated it will compensate with the nitrous map. No worry of failing solenoids.

Just make sure that wire is a good connection

I wonder if there's any way you could include a 'plan b'. Just another checkpoint to make sure that the EMS is doing what it's supposed to be doing when the nitrous is on...kind of like how the newer computer controlled kits stop the flow if the car leans out.

Do you have a wideband?

Might even be a nice feature to kill the car if you run too lean anyways...then again at the power levels you're probably running I don't know that you'll really have much time to react.

The EMS is pretty tricky and if you've got a good tune I don't see why it couldn't work, but maybe I've been conditioned to think I need a wet kit...because I would still feel more comfortable using that. Sounds promising though, but I'd definitely feel a lot more comfortable talking to someone else running a big dry shot with an EMS before doing it myself.

boost4141 · Mar 12, 2007

Yes the ems has all kinds of failsafe on it, have to look into it for the n2o though. Good idea anyways, and yes I have a wideband.

boost4141 · Mar 12, 2007

drcustom said:
The EMS is pretty tricky and if you've got a good tune I don't see why it couldn't work, but maybe I've been conditioned to think I need a wet kit...because I would still feel more comfortable using that. Sounds promising though, but I'd definitely feel a lot more comfortable talking to someone else running a big dry shot with an EMS before doing it myself.

There is always someone whi had to try it first, not saying that ill be the first to do it. But i wont do anything if im not a 100% confident that it will work.

The reason I dont really want to go with a wet kit. Is when I was at one of the nopi events Daryl Hudson was running in it and I saw what happened to his motor when a wet kit fails you..:wall:

Driver · Mar 12, 2007

Try the dry set-up, but I think you will have an easier time if you go wet. Wet kits use pre-sized matching jet sets which makes it close to the proper fuel to n2o ratio. I would use the n2o map for timing control only. If your tune is straight before spray and rich/lean during, then all you need to do is adjust the fuel jet size OR the n2o. IMHO, this would be a lot easier/safer than trying to guess how much fuel to add for that first spray.

Guest · Apr 17, 2007

Just for the record a fuel line to one of the nozzles came loose and ran that cylinder lean. Vibration loosenes up things fast on the car. The lines are now checked before every run. Damage wasn't bad. A new piston and a few valves and we were back in business.

boost4141 said:
There is always someone whi had to try it first, not saying that ill be the first to do it. But i wont do anything if im not a 100% confident that it will work.

The reason I dont really want to go with a wet kit. Is when I was at one of the nopi events Daryl Hudson was running in it and I saw what happened to his motor when a wet kit fails you..:wall:

boost4141 · Apr 18, 2007

awdnot2gsx said:
Just for the record a fuel line to one of the nozzles came loose and ran that cylinder lean. Vibration loosenes up things fast on the car. The lines are now checked before every run. Damage wasn't bad. A new piston and a few valves and we were back in business.

Hey Daryl if this is you, wasnt trying to knock your setup just explaining the down side to a direct port failure and I remember talking to you out a Bradenton Motorsports park.

Guest · Apr 18, 2007

No offense taken, just thought I'd let you know what went wrong. If it can happen its most likely happened to me.

Thanks,

Darryl

97gstbabe · Apr 18, 2007

I've had direct port kit in one of my cars...theres a reason theres no direct port dry kits....

Yes I have had a nitrous backfire...it happens more often then you think...But still wet is the way to go...

If your looking to nitrous on an already decently modded car your fuel pressure is already well into the 70s....ad more pressure to that, and your asking for trouble...Thats alot of stress to put on the shoulders of your fuel system...

jazzyjay · Apr 18, 2007

I think the question now is how to fuel the wet system?
1. Do you tap the fuel line before the fuel rail?
2. Do you use one of the ports on the FPR(aftermarket)
3. Do you run a new fuel system with another fuel pump, lines and regulator.

I am about to have the same problem.

I have a Walbro 255LPH in tank and Bosch 044 in line with -8 hoses.:dunno:

scapaldo · Apr 18, 2007

If you have the ability to use injector compensation for dry, i.e. EMS, Maf-t Aux wire, etc, Then Dry is the way to go. Direct port could go either way, theres nothing wrong with a direct port dry as long as you have enough injector for it.

I wouldnt run a single wet pre-throttle body because of the obvious chance of backfire from fuel in the intake tract. Anytime you run a wet system you've got the possibilty of a fuel solenoid failing shut or a lean spike on activation.

I've got a direct port wet first and dual nozzle dry second, pre-tb. I havent gotten the chance to use the 2nd stage but the first stage has a nasty lean spike on activation.

Dry vs. Wet/Direct port

boost4141

drcustom

boost4141

drcustom

Asmodeus

K_Mans_TSI

boost4141

K_Mans_TSI

boost4141

boost4141

drcustom

boost4141

boost4141

Driver

Guest

boost4141

Guest

97gstbabe

jazzyjay

scapaldo

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