de-sensitizing knock sensor!!!

soldave · Mar 16, 2008

And my mistake. Checked and I've got BR7IEX, so not the projected tip ones.

turboterror · Mar 16, 2008

Black_ bullet said:
So stock timing maps are similar to 2g also i bet?

that last log was a stock evo map.

turboterror · Mar 16, 2008

Black_ bullet said:
I cant speak upon the iridium plugs because ive never used them but i did speak upon telling you plugs that are KNOWN to work... How bad could it be to just give them a try. How much boost was this on again and what are your air fuel ratios?

You have a lot of knock, and not to be the bearer of bad news, but every time you do a pull with that much knock coming up you are cutting into the life spand of that engine. I know your working out your knock issues, but you have either two reasonably safe options... Turn down the boost to a level that doesnt knock, OR, get a true tuning device that allows you to have full control over timing advance. You say you have a chip.. Ok, now send that chip back to whoever programmed it and tell them the type of timing it should have... ( Keep reading and ill get more into that.)

I dont trust your teflon taping of the knock sensor either to be honest.
Doesnt mean you were tricking the engine out of some phantom knock,
may mean that now your ecu is just not retarding timing as much to protect itself. :tat:

If your running any kind of leaned out afr or high boost ( 20psi+) then id say you have some pretty aggressive timing advance, even with 100 octane.
When it tries to shoot up too quickly thats were your knock began, and in the 5000rpm range on both of your pulls.

Once your knock begins; your timing shows itself dropping a deg to compensate, but a few hundred rpms later its already trying to go higher when the knock never stopped in the first place.( typical safc timing issues.)
Knock on a dsm isnt likely to stop once its started during a pull so as the ecu is fighting you to still advance to its next segment on the timing map, your knock will just get worse and worse like your log shows.

Just from eyeballing your log i can tell your timing is increasing too fast.
Starting from where i saw your knock issue begin; if instead your timing
increased in this manner -

5000- 17 degs
5500- still at 17 degs
6000-18 degs
6500- 19 degs
7000- 20 degs

that way ^, then id bet you wouldnt of had hardly any knock;
but your log is already way up to 21degs by 6300rpms while still pulling timing.

Try a cold air intake, drop the boost 2 psi or so, and change the plugs in the meantime, but mainly you need to get that timing map lower and smoother.
You have ideal race gas timing adv there my friend, not pump gas...

these logs were also with the CAS set up at 2.5 degrees..however the PDA was not set up to display that change. So in reality the car is really runing 14.5-17.5 ish in that range.

Also the stock knock sensor is extreme conservative, its a very safe system but not the greatest for power. So there is no going over a certain counts of magic knock is the answer. Actually according to CPL racing and Motorworx Engineering they say that "tuning by knock is for amateurs". They do not even use knock sensors on most of their cars and they never have a problem, and they do tune many high HP daily driven street cars. Motorworx recently tuned a 700WHP SR20 S14 running a T51KA. It is a pretty sick. That car doesn't even have a knock sensor and its daily driven.

However saying all that. I am an ameteur and so are alot of us. Because I do generally tune by knock but I do not worry if the knock counts go a little high. I have been running 30-40 counts of knock on the Power FC for about a year and a half running 20-25 psi.

turboterror · Mar 16, 2008

Black bullet...

I do agree the knock counts are a little on the high side...but I wouldn't hesistate to run a car 10-15 knock counts daily, of course as long as it has enough timing and EGTs are in the area. I honestly would prefer the car closer to 10 counts or so.

Also btw for reference I have played around with the AFRs. The least amount of knock was found in the 10.6-10.8 AFR range on that last log with 18 counts, if I turn it up to 11.0-11.1 ish the knock counts go up to 30.

Black_ bullet · Mar 16, 2008

turboterror said:
Black bullet...

I do agree the knock counts are a little on the high side...but I wouldn't hesistate to run a car 10-15 knock counts daily, of course as long as it has enough timing and EGTs are in the area. I honestly would prefer the car closer to 10 counts or so.

Also btw for reference I have played around with the AFRs. The least amount of knock was found in the 10.6-10.8 AFR range on that last log with 18 counts, if I turn it up to 11.0-11.1 ish the knock counts go up to 30.

Im sorry but i dont understand why you'd feel ok with running a car on 10-15 counts of knock on a daily driven car. Even on forged internals knock still takes its toll, no motor can deal with knock for too long but
Luckily our engines are very forgiving...

You also have to consider that there are those extra hot days, or days that you have a bad tank of gas and you'd be prone to knock more. Pump gas isnt consistent. So by running with no knock, means you may get your 10 counts in that situation of bad gas or extra hot day. But running a tune in for 10-15 counts all the time isnt safe nor is it good practice....

No heres another way for you to look at it,
you dont want ANY knock that pulls timing at all... If you are getting timing pulled then you might as well just drop the timing to the point the ecu is trying to hold it at because if its getting pulled its STILL losing power except WITH knock; so whats the point. Youd be beating up the engine for no reason.

When your ecu is randomly pulling timing all over the place its not good for combustion either and it just leads to a really sloppy pull.
Running overall lower timing ( a deg right before the knock would begin)
the car will pull much better, and even with it being lower timing than you have it now im sure the car would feel faster, and smoother without the excessive stress imposed upon the engine with the knock.

Richening it up is just throwing a bandaid over your problem.
Like ive been saying the whole time you need to either lower your timing or your boost. Lowering your timing would be more ideal because you may actually be able to lean it out and run more boost and make more power, but if you cant play with timing yet then lower your boost...

turboterror · Mar 17, 2008

Black_ bullet said:
Im sorry but i dont understand why you'd feel ok with running a car on 10-15 counts of knock on a daily driven car. Even on forged internals knock still takes its toll, no motor can deal with knock for too long but
Luckily our engines are very forgiving...

Thats just it. Just because its reading 10-15 counts of knock doesn't mean its actually really knock. Remember a knock sensor reads engine noise, and is a safety feature. Just because some logger calls it knock don't buy into it. Lets be honest just because a factory safety feature and a logger calls it "knock" don't buy into it. How do you think that standalones make so much more power than say an eprom'd ecu that still retains the knock sensor/retard? Bottom line is they are mapped more aggressively. The stock ECU plays it very very very safe. Also let me give you an example. I know someone running the exact same evo 1 engine as soldave running on the exact same fuel (here in town), mapped on a Power FC-D jetro, running tomei 260 cams (very similar cams), GT35R, running 1.8 bar (about 27-28 psi), and running total timing around the 20-21 degrees up top. Power FC reads knock counts in the 30-40s. So what you telling me its going to blow up or something? I also have been running 25 PSI running knock counts in the 30s as well on a 9:1 engine over a year. And I can tell you both cars are not slow by no means and thoroughly abused.

Black_ bullet said:
You also have to consider that there are those extra hot days,

I actually knock less on hot days. Air is less dense. I am able to usually run more timing. Your logic is a bit off in this statement IMO.

Black_ bullet said:
or days that you have a bad tank of gas and you'd be prone to knock more. Pump gas isnt consistent. So by running with no knock, means you may get your 10 counts in that situation of bad gas or extra hot day. But running a tune in for 10-15 counts all the time isnt safe nor is it good practice....

Yes I agree that pump fuel isn't totally consistent. However we are not in the states, so I haven't noticed much in difference on logs on any tank of gas in the last year and half out here. I think the japanese are a bit better on getting quality fuel.

Black_ bullet said:
No heres another way for you to look at it,
you dont want ANY knock that pulls timing at all.. If you are getting timing pulled then you might as well just drop the timing to the point the ecu is trying to hold it at because if its getting pulled its STILL losing power except WITH knock;

If the ECU say didn't pull timing say on 10-15 counts for instance. I will bet you the car will be making more power than say 0 counts. that much I promise you.

Yes the timing curve as well as the power curve would be much better without all the timing being pulled. However in soldaves problem the stock ECU chip just has too much timing for that. On the SAFC I am very careful how much fuel to manipulate vs how much fuel pressure, and duty cycle I set it up to run. At the moment I am only manipulating the stock ecu about 15% up top (which isn't much), and duty cycle of 560CC injectors are running at 85% with a static fuel pressure of 47. So at this point the next time we play around with it I am prolly going to drop the static pressure back down to about 42, and should get the DC around the 90% (which is about as high as I want), and hopefully the manipullation should be no more than 10%. Also I think I will try to drop the base timing to 0 and do some logs to see where we are. Also remember I am using the RSM so we have reference on power rather than butt dyno which can be seriously innacurate.

Black_ bullet said:
When your ecu is randomly pulling timing all over the place its not good for combustion either and it just leads to a really sloppy pull.

Yes I do agree with this. stupid stock ECUs

Black_ bullet said:
Running overall lower timing ( a deg right before the knock would begin)
the car will pull much better, and even with it being lower timing than you have it now im sure the car would feel faster, and smoother without the excessive stress imposed upon the engine with the knock.

Yes only because of the timing retard. Not because of the knock. Honestly I think calling it knock is misleading IMO. BTW did you know on the AEM EMS you actually set your own knock curves? Using raw knock voltage. So what happens if you don't have any "counts" to go off of?

Engines make the most power when the combustion happens 15-20 degrees ATDC. It has nothing to do with knock counts. Nothing. Bottom line if make a change on the car say on the dyno...and the car makes more power. its not knocking. No matter what your knock sensor says.

Basically if thats the case and we can get the car to the dyno, and as you say the knock sensor is going to nuts on the timing advance. Then I wouldn't even run a knock sensor, then I would prolly strap that bad boy to the firewall. Crazy you say? Not really. There is some thought to this madness. Afraid of knock? How about the thousands of mapped cars that don't even run a knock sensor? Remember you have to think outside the DSMs a bit here and look at what other people are doing. For instance almost all the Hondata tuned Hondas are all on the P28 ECUs. Well guess what they don't even have a knock sensor on those ECUs. So how do all the high powered dyno queen hondas run around all day long running no knock sensor live? Also on the dyno if you have actually ever done any work on one you will be able to see its threshold before it knocks if you are paying attention the dyno numbers and power curve. I am not a proffessional tuner by no means, but I have rented enough dyno time on enough cars to have an idea of what I am doing and what to believe and what not to believe.

Black_ bullet said:
Richening it up is just throwing a bandaid over your problem.

Yes I agree. With the way the factory ECU is setup with knock/retard and the limitedness of it. At the moment it works.

Black_ bullet said:
Like ive been saying the whole time you need to either lower your timing or your boost. Lowering your timing would be more ideal because you may actually be able to lean it out and run more boost and make more power, but if you cant play with timing yet then lower your boost...

I have got a few other things I am going to try to get rid of knock. Some of which I stated above. With as little boost as he is running and timing he is running he shouldn't have any problems out here. Anyways just my thoughts and my opinions. Peace man

1gawd4g63 · Mar 17, 2008

15-20 degrees after top dead center? That is WAY RETARDED timing, i think you mean 15-20 before top dead center, remember that the more you advance timing the more it is is before top dead center. You should change your timing maps to have -15 degrees tdc and see what kind of power you make.

turboterror · Mar 17, 2008

1gawd4g63 said:
15-20 degrees after top dead center? That is WAY RETARDED timing, i think you mean 15-20 before top dead center, remember that the more you advance timing the more it is is before top dead center. You should change your timing maps to have -15 degrees tdc and see what kind of power you make.

Understand what I am say...

Combustion actually happens 15-20 degrees after TDC. Not your ignition timing. Two seperate events. Remember just because your igntion timing says for instance 15 degrees BTDC doesn't mean combustion actually happens at that moment. You have to understand the combustion process a little more. Corky bell is your friend.

soldave · Mar 17, 2008

1gawd4g63 said:
15-20 degrees after top dead center? That is WAY RETARDED timing, i think you mean 15-20 before top dead center, remember that the more you advance timing the more it is is before top dead center. You should change your timing maps to have -15 degrees tdc and see what kind of power you make.

You might want to have a look at the thread below to see the stock map we are working with for timing and fuelling. Hopefully in the near future we'll have the capacity to modify these maps and play around a little.

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1891453

Black_ bullet · Mar 17, 2008

turboterror said:
Thats just it. Just because its reading 10-15 counts of knock doesn't mean its actually really knock. Remember a knock sensor reads engine noise, and is a safety feature. Just because some logger calls it knock don't buy into it. Lets be honest just because a factory safety feature and a logger calls it "knock" don't buy into it. How do you think that standalones make so much more power than say an eprom'd ecu that still retains the knock sensor/retard? Bottom line is they are mapped more aggressively. The stock ECU plays it very very very safe. Also let me give you an example. I know someone running the exact same evo 1 engine as soldave running on the exact same fuel (here in town), mapped on a Power FC-D jetro, running tomei 260 cams (very similar cams), GT35R, running 1.8 bar (about 27-28 psi), and running total timing around the 20-21 degrees up top. Power FC reads knock counts in the 30-40s. So what you telling me its going to blow up or something? I also have been running 25 PSI running knock counts in the 30s as well on a 9:1 engine over a year. And I can tell you both cars are not slow by no means and thoroughly abused.

Maybe an advanced tuner could run his car this ragged but i dont believe its something to tell a newbie to go do... I know a few guys running their safc shit tunes and 20-30 counts a day was normal. I tried to convince them into at least chipping their ecu so they could drop that timing advance but they didnt listen and said safc was all they needed, and no money for link...
Funny thing is my car is still on the road and theirs arent...

turboterror said:
I actually knock less on hot days. Air is less dense. I am able to usually run more timing. Your logic is a bit off in this statement IMO.

My logic was regarding heatsoak... The only way cold air would make my car more prone to knock is if it was causing the turbo to increase "set" boost pressure, which it has done before since ihave a crappy mbc and internal w.g.

turboterror said:
If the ECU say didn't pull timing say on 10-15 counts for instance. I will bet you the car will be making more power than say 0 counts. that much I promise you.

Sure, the fastest cars are tuned to the limit with knock.
But my post wasnt to help you tune your car to the ragged edge
I was just giving my opinion concerning the longevity of your motor;
since once again, this is your daily isnt it?

turboterror said:
Yes the timing curve as well as the power curve would be much better without all the timing being pulled. However in soldaves problem the stock ECU chip just has too much timing for that.

And your modified chip tune cant fix this because of why?

turboterror said:
Yes only because of the timing retard. Not because of the knock. Honestly I think calling it knock is misleading IMO. BTW did you know on the AEM EMS you actually set your own knock curves? Using raw knock voltage. So what happens if you don't have any "counts" to go off of?

Sure your probably right...

turboterror said:
Engines make the most power when the combustion happens 15-20 degrees ATDC. It has nothing to do with knock counts. Nothing. Bottom line if make a change on the car say on the dyno...and the car makes more power. its not knocking. No matter what your knock sensor says.

The knock sensor is the only flash light some of us have to see in the dark...
Otherwise we'd just be shooting blindly hopeing were making more power without self destruction.

turboterror said:
Basically if thats the case and we can get the car to the dyno, and as you say the knock sensor is going to nuts on the timing advance. Then I wouldn't even run a knock sensor, then I would prolly strap that bad boy to the firewall. Crazy you say? Not really. There is some thought to this madness. Afraid of knock?

My pockets are VERY afraid of knock....

turboterror said:
So how do all the high powered dyno queen hondas run around all day long running no knock sensor live?

Ha, a lot of them dont.... :chair:

turboterror said:
I am not a proffessional tuner by no means, but I have rented enough dyno time on enough cars to have an idea of what I am doing and what to believe and what not to believe.

I hope so...

turboterror said:
I have got a few other things I am going to try to get rid of knock. Some of which I stated above. With as little boost as he is running and timing he is running he shouldn't have any problems out here. Anyways just my thoughts and my opinions. Peace man

Good luck.

soldave · Mar 17, 2008

Black_ bullet said:
And your modified chip tune cant fix this because of why?

Because the modified chip has even more aggressive timing maps than stock.

Black_ bullet · Mar 18, 2008

soldave said:
Because the modified chip has even more aggressive timing maps than stock.

I see... So you need to just get it reprogrammed i suppose.

soldave · Mar 18, 2008

And it's not so easy to "just get it reprogrammed" here in Okinawa.

MuffinMan7580 · Mar 21, 2008

www.Moates.net Look for the Ostrich. It gives you the ability to emulate a chip, make changes to your tune on the fly, and if you find someone who can burn you a chip, you can just have them burn the tune from the ostrich into the new chip. I smell flaming soon. Soldave, you come off kind of cocky dude, people here are just tryin' to help, you posted here asking for our help. Do you have noisy lifters? 1g's have that problem.

soldave · Mar 21, 2008

Already ahead of you with the Ostrich. Got one ordered earlier in the week and have been playing with Tunerpro RT with the maps. Once I get a decent explanation for the table axes labels on my .xdf definition file for the early Evo .bins then I'll be well on my way.

Which comment was seen as being cocky to you? My comment about getting a chip reprogrammed in Okinawa? If so then that is true. The number of people who do that has just done down recently. You've then got to subtract the few places that won't deal with foreigners. Then take away the people who need a dyno to tune as Okinawa has no AWD dynos. Then take almost all the rest of them away as there isn't much pro tuning that goes on for the Evos in Okinawa. In mainland Japan then the scene is quite a bit larger, especially in some areas. In Okinawa though, they are sadly lacking.

MuffinMan7580 · Mar 21, 2008

Yes, I found that to be cocky. Looks like you're on the way then, update us and let us know.

de-sensitizing knock sensor!!!

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