Sleeper pump gas monster. Comments, Idea's, Help?

3_eyed_talon · Dec 9, 2008

Hey guys, I finally got the new motor and set up done and running good. Sadly missing track season due to MANY bugs.. Ive done tons of searching and cant get much of a clear outcome to my question at the end. So help is appriciated. Please feel free to comment!! Thanks!!!

The car:
92 Talon TSI.
Actual weight with full tank 3120 + 200 for me and 160 for the passenger. So This includes the garbage. lol.
The following is at approx 3480lbs.
This is all at about 5200ft elevation.

The plan:
I want to hit 500+WHP on pump gas.

Setup:
DSMLink, Wally 255, Aeromotive afpr, 950cc injectors, Maft Translator, Gm 3" maf, 3.5" intake pipe w/ K&N, 28x7x2.5 FMIC:chair:, 2.5" pipe, PTE6262SP, Tial 38mm dumped to atmosphere, FP race mani, BC 272 cams, BC Springs and Retainers, Fidanza Cam gears, Ross 8.3:1 pistons, Eagle rods, ARP studs, 3" exhaust w/o cat, STOCK intake mani, Stock throttle body, modded 1g bov. Stock Trans, ACT 2100 w/ 6 puck.
A new intercooler core is going to be purchased shortly..

Fuel:
The car is a straight pump gas car. Has never seen race fuel.
93 oct. NOS octane booster. (8 gallons 93 to 1 bottle booster)
I really feel gay for buying this stuff but it really works!! 10.99 at AutoZone.

The tune:
Using DSMLink the car was tuned tonight for 31psi. It is flowing consitant 52 to 53Lb per min of airflow (3800hz) We have the timing ramped up to 22-23* at 8000rpm. I can possibly add another degree or two of timing but the car started blowing out the spark plugs. The Car has random spurts of knock but nothing over 3* of pull and not very often.

The car pulls very hard all the way to 8K+. Its running consistant 1.7 second 70 to 90mph. Thats with two people, Spare tire, Jack, tools, lots of garbage. (3480lbs) I have hit 1.6 sec by myself. I mainly use this as a bench mark only..

My first question is what can I do to help increse flow a bit more? Im trying to squease every little drop I can out of the current set up. Any idea's?

Second I dont know what to do as far as cam gear adjustment. If I remember right the intake is advanced 1* and exhaust is retarded 1*currently. What have you guys read or done as far as this? I have heard +1* intake and -3* exhaust is a good all around tune. Will this help out flow much?

I know a SMIM helps tons and im in the process of buying one. I really like the JMF mani's. I am looking at the strip version mainly because of the price.

And now a bit of useles bench racing. Im trying to get a idea on where the car stands as far as 1/4mile times and HP. Im going to try to get to the dyno this weekend or next weekend. Our closest track is over 200 miles away which sucks. Therefor the car has never been to the track. Hence why im bench racing.

A friend ran 11.0 at 125 on a 60-1, Link, Meth inj, flowing 50lb per min on 18-19* timing. It Dyno out at 480AWHP. So this is my closest personal comparison. Which should be close.

If anyone could give some advice on my questions that would be wonderfull because it will save me hours of tuning and a bunch of gas.

Please feel free to comment or critisize. As long as its constructive.

Thanks a ton!!
Bob,

Steve93Talon · Dec 9, 2008

Pump gas + octane booster is not the same as "pump gas". That being said, you're still gonna be pushing it to the limit to reach 500whp on a bolt-on turbo. If you're running 31 psi and 20+ degrees of timing, then you should be in the ballpark. You've got a heavy car so even if you're at around 500whp it's probably only good for mid-low 11s unless you drive the pants off it. I'd say swap in some BC280s or FP4Rs oe something, but with a stock intake manifold you're probably not gonna benefit much from them. The cam gears are best tuned on a dyno, you can guess at where to set them but what works for one person probably won't work for another. Get it to a dyno or track and find out what it can do.

3_eyed_talon · Dec 9, 2008

True on the gas part. I just want to be able to pull up to just about any pump off the street and be able to fill up. We are hoping for a E85 pump close by. As of now the closest one is about 50 miles away.

Im going to go play with the cam gears tonight. Maybe see which combonation gives the best results. I cant afford dyno time around here. They want $75 for 3 pulls or $150 for a hour.
I just kinda want a idea of what others are running as far as cam timing.

I think I am going to try to get some dyno time friday or saturday. Ill see if I have time to play with the cam gears while im there.

Keep the ideas comin!

Thanks,
Bob.

MuffinMan7580 · Dec 9, 2008

I don't think you're going to gain much from cam gears, especially from BC 272's. The few cars that I've helped build, they really just moved the power, not made any.

On a side note, how does your 2100 hold up to all that?

DRW · Dec 10, 2008

A big intercooler is critical for making big power on pump gas. I'd go with something at least 12" tall and 3.5" thick. What you have now would be considered a good street core for a 16g.

3_eyed_talon · Dec 10, 2008

MuffinMan7580 said:
I don't think you're going to gain much from cam gears, especially from BC 272's. The few cars that I've helped build, they really just moved the power, not made any.

On a side note, how does your 2100 hold up to all that?

I have heard thats what adjusting the gears on BC do. If I remember right retarding the timing moves the power band up. Correct?

Well thats why the act 2100 is now a 6 puck insted of a street disk. The street dist absolutly came unglued when the car hit boost. I am very impressed with the 6 puck holding up so far.

DRW said:
A big intercooler is critical for making big power on pump gas. I'd go with something at least 12" tall and 3.5" thick. What you have now would be considered a good street core for a 16g.

That was the original plan for the car was just to be a 14b or 16g car. But my stock motor broke down so it got built then kinda got out of hand.

I am going to a new core shortly. I think its 32x12x3 with 3" inlet and outlet.

So what do you guys think of the set up all together?

1sick91tsi · Dec 10, 2008

Your car sounds like its running pretty darn good considering the setup. Your 70-90 of 1.6 is exactly what mine was when i ran a 11.6 at 124.4. My problem was it was just spining the snots out of the tires in first. I would go for the intake manifold next for sure, your top end is going to be limited by that stock intake mani and bolt on exhaust housing.

k1tty · Dec 10, 2008

I'm assuming you're in Rexburg since you're friends with Dan? Pics??

3_eyed_talon · Dec 10, 2008

k1tty said:
I'm assuming you're in Rexburg since you're friends with Dan? Pics??

No im from pocatello. We met dan in IF at some 100' drags. Your from around here to right?

3_eyed_talon · Dec 10, 2008

1sick91tsi said:
Your car sounds like its running pretty darn good considering the setup. Your 70-90 of 1.6 is exactly what mine was when i ran a 11.6 at 124.4. My problem was it was just spining the snots out of the tires in first. I would go for the intake manifold next for sure, your top end is going to be limited by that stock intake mani and bolt on exhaust housing.

Ya im really thinking about going to a t3 mani and turbine side. But that will be after a new core, water/meth, and a SMIM.

I have heard of people gaining 100+ WHP from switching to a t3 on a big turbo setup!! Absolutly insane.

Kitty.... you say Pic's? Of?

Gadget · Dec 10, 2008

Id say get yourself a wideband and then try and tune the car , Before messing with any of the cam gears i would set them back to stock. Then id retune the car and go from there. A wideband is the only true way to tune.

JayRolla · Dec 10, 2008

Intercoolers are over rated, its all about the fuel. I would look into meth injection. That way you could boost the turbo to max even though your already close. Would beable to add some timing also.

Your tune is already pretty aggressive for pump gas. Thats a lot of timing for that much boost and surprised you dont see more knock. Anyways that would be the way I would go.

Black_ bullet · Dec 10, 2008

Best thing I can suggest is putting the car on a diet...

3_eyed_talon · Dec 11, 2008

Gadget said:
Id say get yourself a wideband and then try and tune the car , Before messing with any of the cam gears i would set them back to stock. Then id retune the car and go from there. A wideband is the only true way to tune.

K, Ill go get a wideband and I guess while im there ill go get a boost gauge..:chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair: Sorry I didnt list I had a Wideband and boost gauge.. I have the stock radio that turns the volume up on its own if that matters too...

JayRolla said:
Intercoolers are over rated, its all about the fuel. I would look into meth injection. That way you could boost the turbo to max even though your already close. Would beable to add some timing also.

Your tune is already pretty aggressive for pump gas. Thats a lot of timing for that much boost and surprised you dont see more knock. Anyways that would be the way I would go.

The core is staying plenty cool. Its now just to the part that I dont really thing the core can flow much more. Im going to get a bigger core and make a 3" upper IC pipe.

Is there much to gain from going from 2.5" to 3" upper IC pipe?

lasthope05 · Dec 11, 2008

3_eyed_talon said:
Is there much to gain from going from 2.5" to 3" upper IC pipe?

Nothing if your using a stock throttle body.

STikillinTsi · Dec 11, 2008

I would suggest the ETS FMIC. Check out "Kitty"s thread about the ETS FMIC. It impressed me. And yes, the t3 makes more power, easier. I think your built and my build are twins. We both are shooting for the same sleeper monster pump gas and have practically the same setup! That's cool.

MuffinMan7580 · Dec 11, 2008

+1 for a t3 exhaust housing. I know a 35r with the .82 A/R housing (not sure if it's a 4 or 5 bolt housing) does clear with that manifold, so I would assume yours would.

DRW · Dec 12, 2008

3_eyed_talon said:
I have the stock radio that turns the volume up on its own if that matters too..

My radio did that, it's from the caps going bad in the radio. Yeah, Mitsu used caps in there, too. :tat:

3_eyed_talon said:
Is there much to gain from going from 2.5" to 3" upper IC pipe?

According to my notes, at the 500hp level, assuming you use typical 1G short route piping, you'll save about .67psi pressure drop in the uicp, and about .23psi pressure drop in the licp. That's not a huge difference, maybe worth 5 hp. Since the licp is already tough to fit around the alternator, I'd stick with 2.5" here. Since you need to build an uicp, go with 3". It's not a huge difference in power, so why not? :dunno: You need a uicp, why go small? It would be different if you already had a 2.5" uicp, then I'd say it's not worth it to upgrade.

MuffinMan7580 · Dec 12, 2008

MuffinMan7580 said:
+1 for a t3 exhaust housing. I know a 35r with the .82 A/R housing (not sure if it's a 4 or 5 bolt housing) does clear with that manifold, so I would assume yours would.

That is, if you use an adapter plate.

andy4g63 · Dec 12, 2008

You will not not make any more power with 3" UICP. The only thing, that is going to be more is LAG. You will need 3", if you are running GT 42R, or bigger. Cars with stock TB-60mm, went 9.2/ this is EVO, though/. Check out Buschur random FMIC shootout thread, there is a little experience from installing 3" UICP. here is the link:

http://buschurforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20445

Sleeper pump gas monster. Comments, Idea's, Help?

3_eyed_talon

Steve93Talon

3_eyed_talon

MuffinMan7580

DRW

3_eyed_talon

1sick91tsi

k1tty

3_eyed_talon

3_eyed_talon

Gadget

JayRolla

Black_ bullet

3_eyed_talon

lasthope05

STikillinTsi

MuffinMan7580

DRW

MuffinMan7580

andy4g63

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