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2g MAS and 510cc injector combo question

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Red1991TSI

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I've always heard you can swap in a 2g MAS along with 550 injectors into a 1g and be reasonably close to stock, albeit a bit rich. Has anyone ever "tuned" or run a wideband to see how close or rich it may be?

I'm thinking of doing a 2g MAS swap into my new 1g panda, along with some 510cc injectors instead. I'm trying to eliminate the slight richness in favor of something a little more close to original tune. The thing I don't want to be is LEAN!

I plan on bumping the 14b to about 15psi on the above combo. I can get the 510's or 550's for the same price so that doesn't matter. I'm trying to change as little as possible and keep her as close to stock but enhance the performance some.

True life experience and/or educated thoughts would be appreciated.

Red
 
#2 ·
Well you don't know if you'll be rich/lean for sure without a WB, obviously.

But I have read many members stating the 510 and 2g mas on a 1g was just about right. PM Asmo, I'm sure he knows....he knows just about everything :D
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
I don't want to install a WB on this car. I'm pretty sure it will be very close too. Just curious of the differences between running the 510's (which is an odd size to me) and the more common 550's.

I know the ECU will correct upto 40% I believe on the stock 91 ECU. I don't want to be rich but I definately don't want to be lean. If the 510's are a "more perfect" match, I'd rather go with them.
 
#7 ·
IMO the best match injector-wise if you don't want to get into custom chips/DSMlink/AEM or whatever would be stock EVO injectors. Aside from the size, you also have to think about deadtime (or latency), and the effect that has over how an injector opens and closes at low rpm vs high rpm. The stock EVO injectors have nearly the same deadtime as stock DSM injectors, so they're more likely to run and drive like stock. You could always play with the adjustment screw and/or honeycombs to dial in the closed loop fuel trims from there.

Incidentally, for a 14b at 15psi, I'd sooner just run a stock 1G MAF with the lower honeycomb removed and stock injectors and rewire the fuel pump.
 
#8 ·
Red1991TSI said:
I don't want to install a WB on this car. I'm pretty sure it will be very close too. Just curious of the differences between running the 510's (which is an odd size to me) and the more common 550's.

I know the ECU will correct upto 40% I believe on the stock 91 ECU. I don't want to be rich but I definately don't want to be lean. If the 510's are a "more perfect" match, I'd rather go with them.
Click to expand...
You need to put a WB in. I have a customer parting out a Scoob that has a BRAND NEW Innovate WB and DB gauge... in RED. HA! He'll probably dump for a reasonable price considering I sold it to him basically at cost maybe 4 weeks ago. :rolleyes:

40%? I fucking wish... try 10-12%. But this will just set in your LTFT's lo / hi in a 1g. It's not going to constitute any kind of reasonable running car. STFT can make additional alterations to the fuel trim on the fly, but this will most likely max out negative as well and then stop cycling the 02 sensor.

Which will most likely leave you rich and kill 02's.

The car will get piss poor gas mileage. You will wet down the cylinders to the point you have to change your oil every 1000 miles and it will reek of fuel contamination. This will obviously accelerate engine wear as the oil looses its lubricity being cut with fuel.

The alterations to the Hz ranges the 1G and 2G sensors deviate, are not lateral. Or a flat % ----------------> across the board. I can't find the old 2G MAF compensation tables from DSMlink but here's an idea of a 3G/Evo MAF variance from a 2G to illustrate what I mean.

50hz 31%
150hz 29%
250hz 25%
400hz 24%
800hz 19%
1200hz 20%
1600hz 19%
2000hz 19%
2400hz 19%

RED, I don't care what anyone says or who did it 10 years ago this way. You need a WB, and an AFC to fine tune minimum. Find both in the classifieds for cheap and it will be fine. The 510's are denso and good. Most cheap 550's are Lucas type and junk. Evo VIII+ are 560's and VERY good. They have less deadtime than a stock DSM inj. I think like -45 DT compared to stock.

In the end without a WB I wouldn't bother. Why ghetto up your car to make the same power you could have made with the stock injectors a BC and a consistent A/F north of 9-1. :dunno:
 
#9 ·
I'm planning on running a similar setup, with 560cc Evo injectors and 2G MAS.

If I'm using a SAFC to fine tune, will I need a logger for sure? Or will just using a wideband be fine?
 
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#11 ·
I do have a way to see knock (stock boost gauge via keydiver chip), and I'd like to get this running ASAP, so I don't think I'd need a logger.
 
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#12 ·
YOU NEED A LOGGER to view LTFT's so you can actually SEE what you are doing in relation to how the ecu is compensating fuel to dial the car in correctly.

Unless you're super human and can watch RPM, boost, A/F, and your knock gauge and imprint snapshots of all of the above in your brain for later review... I suggest you do it like the rest of us and use a little electronic equipment for assistance. Oh yeah, and not slam into anything while you are doing pulls. Good way to kill your damn self post haste.

I can do like RPM A/F boost and not wreck. Most of the time on a map that is dialed in scanning only for abnormalities by eye while driving.

Outside of that I have to log.

But gauge placement is key. All of those are right in my face. Boost / rpm run inside each other on a steering wheel pod. 2 down. A/F is just off to the left. check... road, I can kinda still keep that in view.

Logger / I just watch the road and not wreck. Less stressful. Much easier to do.
 
#13 ·
Steve you drove my car,It has 550 inj. and 2nd maf.I have the old afc and it is tuned at 100-105 fuel trim and no knock at 22 lbs. Remember we live at attitude.I think that will make a difference.My settings are almost at 0. I live at 7500 ft,
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
Hey Rick, good to see you here. Sorry I haven't called, I've just been so busy with stuff. Heck, I haven't even got up to Colorado to see my brother yet.

I've still got your card and number. Hope things are well with you and I look forward to meeting you again.


Asmo,

Thanks for all the input. I was trying to get by without dumping a lot of money towards this car. I was hoping the 2g MAS and 510's would even out without having to touch a thing. I'll have a spare AFC if I go with Link or a burned chip.

I'm considering taking the EGT gauge that was going in the red car and putting it in the panda. Since it's going to be my tow vehicle, I'd like to see that I'm not running too hot when towing. My Supra sidemount will move over to the panda as well when the frontmount goes on Red.

Now that I have two DSM's which I plan on keeping for now, I really didn't want to feed two projects. Though DSM's being like dogs, having 2 isn't much more work and cost than having only 1. Famous last words... :)
 
#15 ·
Asmodeus said:
YOU NEED A LOGGER to view LTFT's so you can actually SEE what you are doing in relation to how the ecu is compensating fuel to dial the car in correctly.

Unless you're super human and can watch RPM, boost, A/F, and your knock gauge and imprint snapshots of all of the above in your brain for later review... I suggest you do it like the rest of us and use a little electronic equipment for assistance. Oh yeah, and not slam into anything while you are doing pulls. Good way to kill your damn self post haste.

I can do like RPM A/F boost and not wreck. Most of the time on a map that is dialed in scanning only for abnormalities by eye while driving.
Click to expand...
That's what a friend in the passenger seat is for.

During the pull, I tell him the RPM I'm at, he watches the wideband and boost gauge, I watch the tach and keep an eye on knock.
 
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#16 · (Edited)
You missed my partial humor / sarcasm in the ability of watching all of that and making realistically effective changes tuning by the seat of your pants.

It's not going to happen. Get a logger and quit while you are ahead.
;)


RED do what you want. But I'm always the staunch advocate of do it right or don't do it. I like Steve93's ideas better personally.
 
Discussion starter · #17 ·
Steve93Talon said:
Incidentally, for a 14b at 15psi, I'd sooner just run a stock 1G MAF with the lower honeycomb removed and stock injectors and rewire the fuel pump.
Click to expand...
So you're suggesting I don't even upgrade the injectors, stay with the stock 450's, and just up the boost? Fuel pump is already rewired on car but I'm not sure what pump is in there. I have a spare 190 I planned on installing as well as the upper fuel line to eliminate the banjo restrictions.

Asmodeus said:
RED do what you want. But I'm always the staunch advocate of do it right or don't do it. I like Steve93's ideas better personally.
Click to expand...
I'm fully on board with you Asmo about doing things right the first time.

I have a logger but what use does it do if I have no tuning device. I can install one or run a spare EPROM ECU I have with a chip. I was looking for the quick performance bang and doing the least amount possible. Right now I have so many different ways I could go.

I'm want a bit more performance out of the panda for towing but don't want to dump much effort into her right now. As mentioned, the fuel pump is already rewired, mandatory in my book. I'm upgrading my brakes to the "big brake" set up since braking is important when towing. I was hoping I could just go 2g MAS and injector combo for fuel and just crank up the boost.

Would the EPROM and a chip just be the best solution over running and AFC in your opinion?
 
#18 ·
Since the stock fuel system is known to be able to handle 15-16 psi, I would just personally monitor it with the logger. You don't need to tune if your just upping the boost a little if you have no knock, right?
 
#19 ·
^^^^ Agreed. A healthy fuel system and rewired FP should let you get away with 15-16psi no problem. The logger will tell you YES or NO. Since you can't tune the larger injectors are going to be a headache everywhere but WOT. And even then, may still be a pitfa too.

A chip and 510's would be BEST route. Then you could get the A/F ratio off the basement floor and pick up some cleaner power that way too. However the same thing is ALSO true with the 450's. The stock A/F ratio sucks on these cars when you put the pedal down. It's just a fact. So dumping in larger inj without trimming the fat IMO is more shit for a diminishing gain.

I never thought I'd be a SAFC advocate in my life... but find a beat up used one cheap you can stuff in the glove box and get the job done.
 
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