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No Balancer shaft = Pump fail?

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GeorgeGG

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Hey all, i wonder is there any special way of belt tension and adjustment or what? i built engine with No balancer shafts and tensioned Gates Racing belt as usual as i was doing on any other car. Not hard not soft well after 3000mile oil pump gave up. pump housing was eaten by gear at one side. looks like belt was pulling it hard. WTF?

found this write up on AMS site
"In our experience, replacing the front balance shaft with a stub shaft will increase the chances of oil pump failures. This is likely caused by eliminating the support provided by the rear bearing journal. A stub shaft allows the oil pump gears to push apart and wear into the aluminum pump. Aluminum that is being worn away will enter the clean oil stream and contaminate the engine bearings."

Have anybody here Had any issues with pump after removing Balancer Shaft?

P.S. i'm using this kit
Image
 
#2 ·
The last customer I had that used the AMS BSR shaft removed it because it was howling in the block.

You over tensioned the belt. It's not the stubby's fault - it's yours.
 
#4 ·
I've never used a Gates belt on any build - but I assume it's one of the fancy blue ones that uses heavier cord or kevlar like the Greddy etc ones? Those don't stretch. Which is good. Until you over tension them. Then there is no forgiveness in the belt and it will cause the unsupported B/S stubby to tilt using the larger oil pump drive sprocket as a leverage arm.

This would probably not have happened if you used a OEM belt. But if you went monkey shit tight - it too could have. They design these belts to eliminate flex to aid in maintaining strength and so they don't flop and alter valve timing. It's slight but - that's the point. They are also usually more resistant to oil - another benefit if you are leaking oil. But this is the one apparent down side if you have a tendency to over tension the timing belt.

Was it an OEM oil pump? If the answer is no... it could be a combination of things that caused it. But you can erode an OEM pump too with an improperly tensioned - and esp kevlar or reinforced belt.

Unfortunately this is a costly lessen to learn. As all that aluminum that was eroded got purged into your engine...
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
yeah Gates is that blue hard belt ;)
this time im going for 4g64 belt as im building 2.3 liter on long block.
i was using oem pump and before build it was like brand new.
this time i will use OEM pump too brand new from mitsu.

Thx for explain - i was thinking same and u just confirmed :)
thx again
 
#6 ·
No - you will be using a 4G63 timing belt actually.

The 4G64 belt is used on a engine built using a 4G64 block because it is 6mm taller than a 4G63 block. A 2.3l is built using a 4G63 block, a 4G64 crank, and stroker pistons.

The 2.4l, and 2.1l use the 4G64 belt because they are built using the 4G64 block. (straight up 2.4l, or 4G64 block with 4G63 crank (2.1l) - destroke motor)

So you can to use that Gates belt again... I strongly suggest going by the tension specifications this time. OR, if you still have bad vibes about the Gates belt - sell it, put an OEM belt on the car and use the extra $ for something else.

If you plan on making sub 6--hp use an OEM belt. Mainly because this time out of fear you will not tension it enough... it will skip... and you'll go absolutely INSANE with rage. And end up killing people.
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Asmodeus said:
No - you will be using a 4G63 timing belt actually.

The 4G64 belt is used on a engine built using a 4G64 block because it is 6mm taller than a 4G63 block. A 2.3l is built using a 4G63 block, a 4G64 crank, and stroker pistons.

The 2.4l, and 2.1l use the 4G64 belt because they are built using the 4G64 block. (straight up 2.4l, or 4G64 block with 4G63 crank (2.1l) - destroke motor)

So you can to use that Gates belt again... I strongly suggest going by the tension specifications this time. OR, if you still have bad vibes about the Gates belt - sell it, put an OEM belt on the car and use the extra $ for something else.

If you plan on making sub 6--hp use an OEM belt. Mainly because this time out of fear you will not tension it enough... it will skip... and you'll go absolutely INSANE with rage. And end up killing people.
Click to expand...
Well actually i know what i'm talking
i'm Building 2.3 liter engine

4g64 block sleeved to 85.5
eagle 100mm crank - brand new, Balanced, polished and measured
eagle rods
Wiseco pistons
ACL race bearings
OEM oil pump
SCE Titan Headgasket 2.3mm thick
ARP Fasterns
2.4 cam gears
2.4 Mitsu Belt
272 BC cams
Wally 255
780cc injectors
HX40 6blade with 16cm Twinscroll housing

etc etc
Anyway hope to get good engine with around 400Awhp
 
#10 ·
Sorry - it's not that common that people sleeve a 2.4l block.

Some quick suggestions;
- Since you are sleeving the block back down to 85.5 - get A1 / L19 studs and dump the Titan. Actually run far far away from it. Use a stock gasket.
-Don't run BC cams. Get better cams
-But if you do - Run adjustable 4G63 gears remarked with a 4G64 gear. You will need the adjustment...

400awhp will be a casual walk in the park...
 
Discussion starter · #11 · (Edited)
Asmodeus said:
Sorry - it's not that common that people sleeve a 2.4l block.

Some quick suggestions;
- Since you are sleeving the block back down to 85.5 - get A1 / L19 studs and dump the Titan. Actually run far far away from it. Use a stock gasket.
-Don't run BC cams. Get better cams
-But if you do - Run adjustable 4G63 gears remarked with a 4G64 gear. You will need the adjustment...

400awhp will be a casual walk in the park...
Click to expand...
Yeah i know that it is not common, i wouldnot do it if i was not broke.. kinda too small budget for rebuild AGAIN :(
Excuse me i'm sorry for my poor understanding of English language but i dont understand what u mean by this "get A1 / L19 studs and dump the Titan. Actually run far far away from it. "

About using SCE ICS Titan .093" gasket i got it because i dont want to have 9.0:1CR i want get bit lower like 8.5-8.6 because best fuel what we have here is 98 pump gas. So i dont want to risk with my engine.

What is wrong with BC 272? i dont have any better rather than stock EVOII.

Everywhere i have read on forums nobody adjust 272s and i dont get it WHY.
My budget is really tight right now to get anything like adjustable gears or anything else.

Any advices are welcome from Experienced person

George
 
#15 ·
GeorgeGG said:
Yeah i know that it is not common, i wouldnot do it if i was not broke.. kinda too small budget for rebuild AGAIN :(
Excuse me i'm sorry for my poor understanding of English language but i dont understand what u mean by this "get A1 / L19 studs and dump the Titan. Actually run far far away from it. "

About using SCE ICS Titan .093" gasket i got it because i dont want to have 9.0:1CR i want get bit lower like 8.5-8.6 because best fuel what we have here is 98 pump gas. So i dont want to risk with my engine.

What is wrong with BC 272? i dont have any better rather than stock EVOII.

Everywhere i have read on forums nobody adjust 272s and i dont get it WHY.
My budget is really tight right now to get anything like adjustable gears or anything else.

Any advices are welcome from Experienced person

George
Click to expand...
The SCE titan gasket SUCKS. What I want you to do is use a strong head stud that will not stretch and then use a stock type gasket. The stronger head studs will ENSURE the head will not lift - at all. Which will allow you to use a stock gasket which will seal better. The SCE titan is garbage. I wouldn't run one on a lawn mower.

If you are getting 98 RON? Isn't that about the same or better than our 93? Is methanol available where you live? A simple meth kit can take 93 and turn it into race gas.

You cannot magically add .04X to the deck to head height to drop compression without altering valve timing. This is why you need adjustable gears in the first place. Cut the head, different thickness head gasket. Not to mention the 4G64 engines don't line up using 63' gears. They end up a half tooth off. So while you CAN just buy 4G64K (DOHC) gears... if you are installing any kind of cams - GET AFTERMARKET GEARS.

No offense to anyone in this thread - but listening to you say "oh I have BC cams and they work great" wouldn't know what degree'd cams felt like if they sat on your face. BC cams NOTORIOUSLY do not install straight up on a PERFECT 4G63. They are far far worse than MANY other manufacturers with this. If you DON'T want to degree the cams - BUY BETTER CAMS.

Nobody adjusts cams because people are STUPID. They just think you can put cams in a car and it's "fine". Some cams are designed to be pretty drop in, while other cheap ass cams are not. Such as BC.

Do what you want - but it basically comes down to the 'suck' factor. If you aren't going to do it right - buy cams that don't require so much effort to get right. It's really that simple.
 
#17 ·
I wouldn't even consider it unless you were using a 2.1l or built 2.0l and revving to 10k.

Even then... many have revved that high without it for a long time.
 
#18 ·
As someone who's owned and tuned dozens of DSMs, from 200K+ mile beaters to 9K+ RPM 600+whp drag cars, and having run an OEM stub shaft in every single one with zero failures, I think that the AMS is a marketing scare tactic with zero basis in proven advantage.Their whole arguement that it supports the oil pump shaft is just ridiculous.

The sad part is there are EVO guys who have more money than brains and are AMS fanboys who will just buy it without thinking twice. Plus, like Asmo said, if you run a kevlar belt and it's not tensioned PERFECTLY, you can eat a pump pretty easily. And lots of EVO guys run kevlar belts compared to DSMs. Then they trash an oil pump, blame the stub shaft, and buy into the AMS "race" shaft.

The funniest stories are the guys with the kevlar belt and AMS shaft who still experience oil pump failures, while the guys with properly tensioned OEM belts and OEM stub shafts are still running just fine.
 
#19 ·
When you put a Kevlar belt you just need to put the right tension just like the oem belt.

From VFAQ:
Turn the crankshaft 2 revolutions clockwise so that the timing marks are aligned. After leaving it for 15 minutes, measure the auto tensioner push rod gap with a drill bit (distance between the tensioner arm and auto tensioner body) to ensure that it falls within the specification of 3.8-4.5mm (.150-.177in) as shown in Figure 21.

Image


Kevlar or not this is the spec ! ( 2gen 7 blots)

Took me 4 try to get it in the range ... So what ? Now it's perfect and I know it.
 
Discussion starter · #20 ·
Asmodeus said:
The SCE titan gasket SUCKS. What I want you to do is use a strong head stud that will not stretch and then use a stock type gasket. The stronger head studs will ENSURE the head will not lift - at all. Which will allow you to use a stock gasket which will seal better. The SCE titan is garbage. I wouldn't run one on a lawn mower.

If you are getting 98 RON? Isn't that about the same or better than our 93? Is methanol available where you live? A simple meth kit can take 93 and turn it into race gas.

You cannot magically add .04X to the deck to head height to drop compression without altering valve timing. This is why you need adjustable gears in the first place. Cut the head, different thickness head gasket. Not to mention the 4G64 engines don't line up using 63' gears. They end up a half tooth off. So while you CAN just buy 4G64K (DOHC) gears... if you are installing any kind of cams - GET AFTERMARKET GEARS.

No offense to anyone in this thread - but listening to you say "oh I have BC cams and they work great" wouldn't know what degree'd cams felt like if they sat on your face. BC cams NOTORIOUSLY do not install straight up on a PERFECT 4G63. They are far far worse than MANY other manufacturers with this. If you DON'T want to degree the cams - BUY BETTER CAMS.

Nobody adjusts cams because people are STUPID. They just think you can put cams in a car and it's "fine". Some cams are designed to be pretty drop in, while other cheap ass cams are not. Such as BC.

Do what you want - but it basically comes down to the 'suck' factor. If you aren't going to do it right - buy cams that don't require so much effort to get right. It's really that simple.
Click to expand...
i already put that head gasket on my engine yesterday. today i damaged belt while puting engine under bonnet :(
i have to buy new one.
i used 2.4 dohc cam gears and timing belt.
i'll try to get 2.4 belt locally ortherwise i will have to order from states.
our 98octane is much much better than US 93.
We dont have any Meth or some stuff like that over here :( so no meth injection.
 
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GeorgeGG
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