Dyno Day.... Going down Saturday

GTAhot92 · Feb 16, 2012

Sean485 said:
Timing varies wildly under differing load and rpm conditions that the ecu sees, remembering that the safc is modifying what the ecu "sees" so each tweak you make to your fuel on the safc changes your timing curve. You will not tune that car properly on an safc with those injectors and a turbo FPR and have proper a/f and timing, this I assure you.

Few options to do your tune right:
1)Cut fuel pressure with a quality AFPR, to make your 450's act smaller. Tune around that fuel flow rate with safc and pray your spray pattern is ok. Adjusting base timing into the negatives if needed to keep actual timing advance where it needs to be to avoid knock at WOT.
2)Come up with/ modify to work a turbo ecu of some sort that is programmed to work with MPI and distributor.
3)Eprom ecu for 1.8l, socket it, ostrich it, learn hex code and modify everything at the source. Throw safc into lake where it belongs.
4)AEM/haltec/megasquirt

Options one and three, still have no knock control, which is dangerous and regardless of which option you use you need a logger of some sort. You also need your own wideband unless you want to go to dyno several times a week until you get all possible tuning done.

Well, over the last few days somethings have been brought to my attention as well as suggestions. I am looking for a smaller set of Injectors as I have 2 sets of 450's at this time. Someone may possibly turn up with 390's or I have a Honda guy wanting to trade for high impd's 330's.

First thing mentioned was I f I am corrected about 35-40% why not tune it all back up and run e85. They said e85 will cause alot of my issues to go away because I would be closer to 0 on the AFC. However I am considering my mileage loss as well as only 3 gas stations in town do e85....

Second was this supplied by a Turbo Honda Civic owner whom lives down the street from me. He is currently holding around 550 whp at this time with his Hatch.

10secHtcbk said:
We modify the ecu s to accept aftermarket eproms that contain
Fuel and timing maps much like they did from the factory only to our specs usually written on a dyno on a pc essentially the tuner runs the car on the pc and creates and tweaks maps until there as desired he then saves the file and burns it to a chip that we stick in the ecu. If you want to lower your fuel your either going to have to decrease the pressure increase the ohms of resistance going to the injectors or decrease the cycle duty which it sounds like you have done already. Im more preferable to lowering psi. Example: if your car has 100cc injectors at 40psi if you put 200cc injectors on and run 20psi there still 100cc of fuel being atomized throughout the ENTIRE rpm window. If you have a wideband you can monitor you're afr anyway 1 lean cycle won't kill a motor. If your going to tune your self I would HIGHLEY recommend you get a data logger and plug it into that wideband. With our elevation you do NOT want to run LEANER than 14.7 and no richer than 11.5. Anywhere inbetween is ok for the sake of the motor for the sake of performance try and stay in the 12s. Did that make sence?
Anyway if 275s are to little and 450s are to much 330s should be perfect but they bear 12ohms (spec) resistance. Your injectors are 2ohm with a 10ohm box (12) total. If your willing to delete the resistor box you can do a straight trade with doug.
Otherwise your going to need to get a direct replacement fpr for your car, or bypass-hollow out your fpr to run a inline fpr like I have to turn down ther fuel psi. I have one you can run on top of your regulator, but you might have to hollow out your oem regulator for it to work right (only if you have another oem one lying around just incase) when you put 450s on a car that had 275 without scaling the cycle duty your spray pattern is irrevelent its going to puddle which is still better than an excessive lean condition bit not a minor lean condition. You don't need to scale back but 5to10psi max to get where you need to be. That will alter your pattern less than a dying fuel pump or clogged filter would. So you tell me.......

Next my local forum is suggesting I try to get Link to work on the car. It is possible to get the CAS signal from the distributor on the g37's and they want me to do a harness and ECU swap. Only thing I would need to swap Throttle boddies, coils and MAF. As well as wire in the knock sensor. They also wanna see if the ignition side only can be wired into the system.
http://abq-dsm.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=38143#38143

Lastly was something I considered and how about a MSD 2step with a retarding system for under boost. I am almost positive MSD made such a system.

Does anyone know the fuel rail adaptor with a NPT fitting and not for AN's, where to find one?

And is it possible the rich condition is causing EGT's to rise and causing detonation?

SLEEPS · Feb 16, 2012

A bit of what was talked about in this thread... (as for you question about the Eclipse ECU)

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2237578

LSR Mike said:
When it was NA I was using a E-Prom ECU with custom chips from DSMLink, they were very gracious, adjusting for Injectors, RPM limit etc... when I was looking for more adjustabiliy, support waned, the distributor being the sticking point. I went for the AEM.

That is where I discovered the need for the Throttlebody, (the ISC and other bits aren't compatible) then the dual coil setup needed to be accommodated. I robbed the dual coils and igniter module, and CAS from the eclipse. when I got it all on the bench, is when I figured out I DID NOT need the CAS on the 8V head, the distributor has EXACTLY the same electronics built into the base. Harness wiring and all. Plug and play to the AEM(and the stock turbo ECU). The wiring came into play with the Dual Coil,and Igniter, it replaces the distributor cap. instead of a single coil, with a wire to the middle of the cap and the turning of the distributor, distributing the fire to the proper cylinder, the dual coil has a wire to each plug and the computer controls which one is firing. the CAS in the base of the distributor replaces the CAS normally mounted on the back of a cam shaft, they turn at the same rate. I added the wires needed to the harness to control the dual coil and the igniter. the plugs on the ECU are the same, just needed to populate the missing pins.

Essentially I have a motor that electrically (ignition & Throttlebody) looks like an eclipse. It's really a Truck motor, heavily modified for high RPM & high horsepower. Since the AEM is designed to replace an eclipse ecu, conversely the Eclipse ECU with DSM link will do the same functions as the AEM, just a different price point and software interface.

(IMHO soapbox=on) If i was to start over without the previous investment, and lessons learned; for aftermarket CAM, valve, valve springs, manifold fitment etc... Do a 4G63 head swap, convert to an Eclipse Throttlebody and dual coil, swap out the ECU for a Eclipse Turbo ECU, rewire, the harness and plug in the DOHC CAS into the same pins as the stock Distributor. you will have what looks like a 4G63 Turbo eclipse with a 4G64 bottom end and more displacement which fits your transmission/driveline. You will need a better clutch.

BISHILVR · Feb 17, 2012

You can have rich knock, yes. I dont go for fiddling with the base pressure to make injectors behave like they are a different size, it plays with the spray pattern too much and they become inconsistant. You might be able to switch to coil on plug, or coil packs if you think that your distributor outputs a signal similar to the 4g63 though, and thats the direction that I would be looking in because its the best long term solution at the cheapest cost right now. Ecu pin 22 is your camshaft position sensor input and pin 21 is your crankshaft position sensor input, oddly enough those are the same pins for the same thing on the 4g63, and the input voltages are the SAME, go from there I would.

BISHILVR · Feb 17, 2012

As far as a fuel pressure regulator, the Buschur racing bolt on regulator will probably fit your rail, it looks like it has the same ends as the 1g rail.

GTAhot92 · Feb 17, 2012

This my friends was some GREAT information! I may be considering the harness swap and a COP to compliment it now. That damn distributor and throttle body Idle motor are the only damn things stopping me. Well, I decided I needed to get the FPR and 255 pump going here soon. I was able to find the things need from our vendors. And should of shipped last night so hopefully next weekend I can get all that dialed in. If I can do this swap and run Link, what other features does Link offer? I am also gonna see what MSD has to offer....

GTAhot92 · Feb 17, 2012

BISHILVR said:
Heres the program for your cable: http://mmcdlogger.sourceforge.net/

Do you know hot to feed input from a AEM wideband into the logger? That way I can track my A/F values as well.

Rockemum · Feb 17, 2012

With Ecmlink, the ability to make adjustments to the factory ecu and mainly the fact that its so popular makes it a good tool. If you have a problem, just post a log file, and everyone can see exactly what you were doing, what readings you're getting and help you troubleshoot. I'm sure other programs can do that also, but the support community is top notch IMO. Just the ability to dial in injectors and idle/cruise in less than an hour make it my personal pick. I think you can even individually adjust each injector now. I'm thinking about getting one cylinder bored .040 just to try it!

No I'm not. Joke. But for real, check out their website and if you can access it, the Wiki/Knowledge Base.

MuffinMan7580 · Feb 17, 2012

BISHILVR said:
I dont go for fiddling with the base pressure to make injectors behave like they are a different size, it plays with the spray pattern too much and they become inconsistant.

Most injectors have reliable spray patterns to about 24 PSI (above manifold pressure). Fuel economy will be hurt by going that low because of poor atomisation, but it will work.

I've never seen any NPT outlet adapters for our fuel rails, you'd most likely have to go AN->NPT->AFPR.

Sean485 · Feb 18, 2012

If you were to swap to a turbo ecu running dsmlink (which I agree with the already stated would be the BEST option) why not just use a 1g throttle body? Have a size/bolt pattern adapter made if needed. As far as COP keep in mind that the factory DSM distributor-less ignition is VERY good and supports more HP, reliably than most COP systems.

BISHILVR · Feb 18, 2012

GTAhot92 said:
Do you know hot to feed input from a AEM wideband into the logger? That way I can track my A/F values as well.

What you could do is disconnect the plug for your stock o2 sensor and run the AEM wideband output to where the stock o2 sensor would have went, you can have the AEM unit emulate a stock narrowband unit so that the ecu is still happy seeing what it thinks is the stock o2 sensor, but when you datalog it you would actually have a wideband sensor with an accurate output.

Not sure what harness your looking for but I have a 90' gsx harness that I listed for sale a while back, have a few people interested in it, but no one has pulled the trigger on it yet.

If you want to go with the c.o.p. unit then its recommended to go with an aftermarket ignition box such as the MSD unit (I like mine)

.

GTAhot92 · Feb 24, 2012

BISHILVR said:
What you could do is disconnect the plug for your stock o2 sensor and run the AEM wideband output to where the stock o2 sensor would have went, you can have the AEM unit emulate a stock narrowband unit so that the ecu is still happy seeing what it thinks is the stock o2 sensor, but when you datalog it you would actually have a wideband sensor with an accurate output.

I just read this! So what wire feeds the narrow band for the ECU? I had my downpipe flange weld snap off again and had to remove the wideband till I get get to a welder again tomorrow.... However if I can run the wideband into the o2 housing that would be easier and I wouldn't have to worry about leaks in the weld.

Sean485 said:
If you were to swap to a turbo ecu running dsmlink (which I agree with the already stated would be the BEST option) why not just use a 1g throttle body? Have a size/bolt pattern adapter made if needed. As far as COP keep in mind that the factory DSM distributor-less ignition is VERY good and supports more HP, reliably than most COP systems.

Well, after talking to several handfulls of people on my local forum we came up with a simular solution. We are gonna do the 2.0T operating system swap. I have a grabbed attention from a DSM Vendor out of AZ and he is making a custom harness utilizing the CAS from the base of my distributor to feed the turbo ECU. Then we are talking about running it on link and he is going to tune it for me from link and wants to shoot for 12 psi on street gas and possibly 14-15 at the track on race fuel. He believes there is easily another 75-100 whp I can get out of her while retaining the reliability.

I will keep updated as it moves along. He should have the harness finished by this weekend. I am also gonna be swapping the throttle body to a 2.0 non-turbo to retain the ISC, and closed throttle switch. Also a non-turbo as I had to cut the flange off that IC pipe to couple it to the 1.8 TB. Upon installing I am gonna have the manifold port matched to the new throttle.

Any other concerns? Or questions?

Sean485 · Feb 24, 2012

GTAhot92 said:
I just read this! So what wire feeds the narrow band for the ECU? I had my downpipe flange weld snap off again and had to remove the wideband till I get get to a welder again tomorrow.... However if I can run the wideband into the o2 housing that would be easier and I wouldn't have to worry about leaks in the weld.

It is not recommended to have the wideband so near to the turbo. IIRC its recommended 30-36" after the turbocharger as the extreme exhaust temps will shorten the life of the sensor. If you are going to run it on link dont worry about the narrowband side of things, you can directly input the 5v linear signal into the ecu and dsmlink can use that to adjust fuel trims.

BISHILVR · Feb 24, 2012

Its the pressure that is more damaging to the wideband when its too close to the turbo, but I agree that the best placement is around 3 feet from the turbo, but some guys do run them in the stock location and seem to do ok with it. If you are definately using dsmlink then you can input the wideband directly into it and scale it in dsmlink.

GTAhot92 · Feb 24, 2012

Well, DSMLink will eventually happen down the road. I still have to recieve the harness but this information given is great! I have the wideband installed now in the downpipe behind the oil pan area. This is not gonna be a fun swap lol!

BISHILVR · Feb 25, 2012

Thats a perfect place for it, hopefully you have it mounted close to 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock position also, this extends its life by keeping moisture off of it.

GTAhot92 · Feb 27, 2012

So I think my "Turbo FPR" was not correct or possibly faulty. I gathered all the items needed to run my AFPR that was given to me by my roomie for money owed. I set it to run at what the book called for at 27 psi for a manual trans 1g. This is with the vacuum connected of course. The car seems to run a bit smoother now and idle is about 300 RPMS lower than what they were before. I possibly could of not had a Turbo FPR, or possibly had a Auto Trans FPR which in the book said was substantially higher. Given the FPR was on a abandoned parts car that had the rail, injectors and FPR in the back seat and the car was a FWD 5-speed. However who knows what the previous owner did with it or to it.... Any way to verify what it was?

lazylaser · Feb 27, 2012

GTAhot92 said:
I set it to run at what the book called for at 27 psi for a manual trans 1g. This is with the vacuum connected of course.

IDK how 1.8 1g's are... but when setting the base fuel pressure with an aeromotive fpr you do it with the vacuum line disconnected.

Dyno Day.... Going down Saturday

GTAhot92

SLEEPS

BISHILVR

BISHILVR

GTAhot92

GTAhot92

Rockemum

MuffinMan7580

Sean485

BISHILVR

GTAhot92

Sean485

BISHILVR

GTAhot92

BISHILVR

GTAhot92

lazylaser

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