Hey I've been debating to myself on whether I should get a 1st gen AWD turbo Talon or a 2nd gen. At first I stuck with the 1st gen because of the stronger 6-bolt motor which rarely gets crankwalk, and because of the cheaper price. The one thing that really completely turned me away from the 2nd gen Talon is horror stories of crankwalk and about how many early 2nd gens can get it, which will destroy your engine. But a few days ago some guy told me that any 2nd gen DSM with over about 40,000 miles would have already gotten crankwalk and the engine would have already been blown to pieces? So basically any used 2nd gen that I see for sale with over 40,000 miles must not be capable of getting crankwalk because the motor would have alreay been blown?? Is their any truth to this? And if not, what is the best way to still get a 2nd gen DSM WITHOUT dealing with crankwalk? If I didn't have to worry about crankwalk then hands down I'm gonna get a 2nd gen because I like the interior/exterior styling much better than the 1st gen. Thanks.
Crankwalk on 2nd gen DSMs???
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CrazyJ0ker
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http://www.geocities.com/awd92gsx/4g64.html
This gives you the basic instructions for swapping in a 4G64 block using a 4G63 DOHC cylinder head.
This gives you the basic instructions for swapping in a 4G64 block using a 4G63 DOHC cylinder head.
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thanks! looks intresting.
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That's an interesting article awd92gsx, but the article isn't complete am i right? also, have you see any gain in performance with this hybrid setup? I'm really interested. 2.4 liters huh...hmm, nice..now all that are needed to be in league with Supras are 0.6 liters and 2 extra cylinders. "thinking, where to get that extra 0.6 liter..hmmm, maybe boring will get the hybrid up to 2.6 Liters, woohoo, not bad at all!!"
[Edited by EclipseXstacy on 12-10-2001 at 02:39 AM]
[Edited by EclipseXstacy on 12-10-2001 at 02:39 AM]
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EclipseXstacy, I don't get why you are always bustin on the displacement of the 4G63. If you want something with a bigger engine go get a friggin mustang or something.
Almost every post I read of yours says something about the small displacement of the 4G63 and how it "can't reach the 1500hp mark" because of how small it is, and then in your signature I see your goal is high 12's. I bet you that with an AWD model 4G63 you can get in the 12s just as easily if not much easier than many cars in the market with more displacement.
Almost every post I read of yours says something about the small displacement of the 4G63 and how it "can't reach the 1500hp mark" because of how small it is, and then in your signature I see your goal is high 12's. I bet you that with an AWD model 4G63 you can get in the 12s just as easily if not much easier than many cars in the market with more displacement.
Crankwalk is a buzz word. Its easier than saying 'premature thrust bearing failure'. Nothing more. However, 'premature thrust bearing failure' is an issue. It doesn't matter if its bad bearing oiling, bad clutch adjustment, or the accessory pulleys being out of line. There is something that caused 2G turbos to wear their thrust bearing prematurely.
The issue is not wether or not it happens because it can happen to all engines. Yes even 1G's. Yes even 6-bolts. Just misalign the thrust bearing halves on install and you will have 'crankwalk'. The issue is why does it happen more often in 2g's than in 1g's.
favre, mitsu hid lots of recalls from becoming public knowledge because of cost. Just because the manufacturer didn't volunteer to admit that there is an issue and decide to pro-actively find the cause instead of having the Gov't force, doesn't mean there isn't a design flaw and that the manufacturer doesn't know about it.
And no there is not definitive mile marker where you are safe from crankwalk. My friends 2G thrust bearing wore @ 18k miles. Then again @ 23k after a rebuild. Then again @ 33k after a shortblock replacement. He is on his 2 shortblock and is fine so far. Knock on wood.
I personally have stripped 2 thrust bearings. My original 7 bolt engine @ 64k miles and my 6-bolt replacement 9k miles later. Stock clutch, stock turbo.
There is an issue with 2G engines. I doubt anyone will EVER find out definitively what the issue is. Until someone sits down and spend a shit load of money to make a scientifically controlled test, there will be no definites except this: Its damn definite that Mitsu won't be the one to pay for the research now that the 4G63 is a much lesser produced engine for the US.
The issue is not wether or not it happens because it can happen to all engines. Yes even 1G's. Yes even 6-bolts. Just misalign the thrust bearing halves on install and you will have 'crankwalk'. The issue is why does it happen more often in 2g's than in 1g's.
favre, mitsu hid lots of recalls from becoming public knowledge because of cost. Just because the manufacturer didn't volunteer to admit that there is an issue and decide to pro-actively find the cause instead of having the Gov't force, doesn't mean there isn't a design flaw and that the manufacturer doesn't know about it.
And no there is not definitive mile marker where you are safe from crankwalk. My friends 2G thrust bearing wore @ 18k miles. Then again @ 23k after a rebuild. Then again @ 33k after a shortblock replacement. He is on his 2 shortblock and is fine so far. Knock on wood.
I personally have stripped 2 thrust bearings. My original 7 bolt engine @ 64k miles and my 6-bolt replacement 9k miles later. Stock clutch, stock turbo.
There is an issue with 2G engines. I doubt anyone will EVER find out definitively what the issue is. Until someone sits down and spend a shit load of money to make a scientifically controlled test, there will be no definites except this: Its damn definite that Mitsu won't be the one to pay for the research now that the 4G63 is a much lesser produced engine for the US.
I didn't ever say that mitsu had no clue this was goin on. They knew very well that this is an issue with this engine. But there is obviously a loop hole somewhere in the law that mitsu doesn't have to do anything about this. OR mitsu according to law doesn't have to do anything about it cause its not a safety issue. I think there have been enough people complaining about this problem that our government has it on file somewhere. But, either mitsu doesn't have to do anything about it...or they are screwing all their customers and going through a loop hole in the law somewhere. Maybe cause it's not really a safety issue. Its beyond me...i just know they obviously don't have to do crap about it because it would have been done already....and about your comment on mitsu covering up recall stuff. That is and was mainly in japan. I don't even think it really affected us. I know our engine is from japan. But that recall cover up scandal mainly affects the japan divison of mitsubishi. There are a "ton" of divisions of mitsu.(not that it matters) But, whether this recall scandal affects our engines who knows. I think if it did something would have come out about it already.
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dsm1995gst, the reason is simple. Mustangs or muscle cars in particular have too Much displacement. This will most likely affect fuel economy. And also, imo, the V8 are not as efficient as the Inline 6 and Inline 4. I really don't want to argue about this. Like i said. I love our 4g63. But i think 2.0 Liter is not, i repeat not, enough displacement imo. I am looking for an engine in the order of 3-3.8 liters (that to me is considered my ideal size engine) that was meant for turbocharging. And has alot of aftermarket potentials. The only car that even comes close is the Supras. But to be honest i dont think many people can afford them. So that's why i am overfilled with joy whenever we get to extract a few milliliters more from our engines.dsm1995gst said:
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What is the fastest Supra as of now?
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In this case, however, I'm not looking for quarter mile timeslips. However, I would like to add that the fastest Supras runs mid 8 without N20..but in this case specially,i'm talking about the EASE in getting power. Supras usually make more power per mod than DSMs, there's no denying. And that has to do with having more displacent and cylinders. Anyways, this is getting old...
aren't they even rarer than the the Supras? And besides, they look like turbocharged Oldsmobiles lol. Anyways, to each his own.awd92gsx said:
Besides giving it a run in the 1/4 a Supra will beat a GN in an autox or road race. The Buick GN is made for a straight line,they're a pretty scary car in the twisties.
I'd trade my DSM anyday for a stock Supra TT. For less than $1500 you can run mid 11s all day with that Toyota 3 liter. But for now my insurance company is insuring a 195hp
car not a 320hp one. Shhhhhh....
I'd trade my DSM anyday for a stock Supra TT. For less than $1500 you can run mid 11s all day with that Toyota 3 liter. But for now my insurance company is insuring a 195hp
car not a 320hp one. Shhhhhh....Crankwalk on 2nd Gen's
I've heard everything about this topic and can only be grateful that my '95 AWD Talon with 125k hasn't spitout the thrust bearing. I run my car pretty hard, but I also maintain it too. The worst that has happened is the trans broke at 50k, but I think that could be from flat shifting it like a 60's muscle car at the drag strip. Haa! Still, if it did blow I'm very confident that my machine shop could tell me why and do a good job to keep it from happening. Plus, if your engine has been rebuilt did you have them "straighten" the bottem end by having it align bore? Just something to think about. Until then I'll keep giving mine hell until it fuses everything together in one molten mess.
Anthony
95 TSi AWD - Getting Prepped!
I've heard everything about this topic and can only be grateful that my '95 AWD Talon with 125k hasn't spitout the thrust bearing. I run my car pretty hard, but I also maintain it too. The worst that has happened is the trans broke at 50k, but I think that could be from flat shifting it like a 60's muscle car at the drag strip. Haa! Still, if it did blow I'm very confident that my machine shop could tell me why and do a good job to keep it from happening. Plus, if your engine has been rebuilt did you have them "straighten" the bottem end by having it align bore? Just something to think about. Until then I'll keep giving mine hell until it fuses everything together in one molten mess.
Anthony
95 TSi AWD - Getting Prepped!
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favre95, you anger me My brother also works for mitsu, so I too have another view on this subject. But I had my engine crankwalk (and yes there is proof of crankwalk... my crank moved ) at 70k. Or so I thought. Turns out when my brother ran a warranty service history on it the previous owner also had the short block replaced at 30k. So the second motor went a whole 40k more. Don't tell me there isn't crankwalk There isn't a known "cause for crankwalk" because mitsu F'ed up enough that there are -several possible causes-. Which one is it? or is it a combination of many? I dont give a shit. It cost be a short block.
My latest block went in summer of 2000 and is still going strong. So perhaps the problem was rectified. Maybe not. Who knows.
What does your example of the guy getting 1g blocks and wasting a ton of money have to do with it. If nothing else, it say a lot about Mitsubishi Technician's inherent lack of knowledge about the thrust bearing alignment procedure. Any jackass can ruin even a 1g block.
Both times the motor failed at 30k or 40k with stock clutch. Now with ACT 2600 and 12 second slips there is no longitudinal play with the crank (out of spec). Again, that is just another of the theories. It makes sense that a higher plate pressure may cause it, but that doesnt mean you can say "hey you deserved it, it's not mitsus fault." In fact, the more I think about the fact that you worked for Mitsu and your lack of knowledge about this subject frightens me. What frightens me even more is the way you came to this thread acting like you were the final answer on crankwalk.
My brother also works for mitsu, so I too have another view on this subject. But I had my engine crankwalk (and yes there is proof of crankwalk... my crank moved ) at 70k. Or so I thought. Turns out when my brother ran a warranty service history on it the previous owner also had the short block replaced at 30k. So the second motor went a whole 40k more. Don't tell me there isn't crankwalk There isn't a known "cause for crankwalk" because mitsu F'ed up enough that there are -several possible causes-. Which one is it? or is it a combination of many? I dont give a shit. It cost be a short block. My latest block went in summer of 2000 and is still going strong. So perhaps the problem was rectified. Maybe not. Who knows.
What does your example of the guy getting 1g blocks and wasting a ton of money have to do with it. If nothing else, it say a lot about Mitsubishi Technician's inherent lack of knowledge about the thrust bearing alignment procedure. Any jackass can ruin even a 1g block.
Both times the motor failed at 30k or 40k with stock clutch. Now with ACT 2600 and 12 second slips there is no longitudinal play with the crank (out of spec). Again, that is just another of the theories. It makes sense that a higher plate pressure may cause it, but that doesnt mean you can say "hey you deserved it, it's not mitsus fault." In fact, the more I think about the fact that you worked for Mitsu and your lack of knowledge about this subject frightens me. What frightens me even more is the way you came to this thread acting like you were the final answer on crankwalk.
I will agree with Favre on a few things.
Crankwalk isn't as bad as alot of people make it out to be. I've worked in a high volume dealership for the past 3 years and have only seen about 4 or 5 engines actually be replaced for crankwalk.
Alot of people believe they have crankwalk, but it sometimes ends up being something else...
Does crankwalk exist? Yes it does. Can't deny that.
Does every 2G get it? No, not every one.
Honestly, I may be against the grain here, but I think CW has less to do with the clutch than everybody thinks. All of the cars that I've seen with crankwalk had stock clutches.
I like Magnus's theory, but I also like Mitsubishi's theory of the crank not being properly hardened (if at all).
All I know is if I had a 2G, I'd be droppin' a 4G64 in it. I'm looking into a cheap source for the 4G64 blocks. Found a place that has the blocks for $125, but I need to find out if the cranks are included with them. I emailed the guy, but haven't gotten a response yet...I'll keep you updated.
For the meantime, I've taken down the list until I can go through it and add part numbers and all.
Crankwalk isn't as bad as alot of people make it out to be. I've worked in a high volume dealership for the past 3 years and have only seen about 4 or 5 engines actually be replaced for crankwalk.
Alot of people believe they have crankwalk, but it sometimes ends up being something else...
Does crankwalk exist? Yes it does. Can't deny that.
Does every 2G get it? No, not every one.
Honestly, I may be against the grain here, but I think CW has less to do with the clutch than everybody thinks. All of the cars that I've seen with crankwalk had stock clutches.
I like Magnus's theory, but I also like Mitsubishi's theory of the crank not being properly hardened (if at all).
All I know is if I had a 2G, I'd be droppin' a 4G64 in it. I'm looking into a cheap source for the 4G64 blocks. Found a place that has the blocks for $125, but I need to find out if the cranks are included with them. I emailed the guy, but haven't gotten a response yet...I'll keep you updated.
For the meantime, I've taken down the list until I can go through it and add part numbers and all.
Well, with extra torque, the possibility of breaking driveline parts is always there...common sense should apply here...if you make more power and more torque you need to adjust your launching. Even a 2.0L can break parts with a hard launch and a grabby clutch. I would definitely recommend upgrading the center diff, though, for anybody looking to do the swap for performance reasons, though.
The stroker kits are usually only 2.3L at the very most.
Also, 4G63's in good shape are becoming harder and harder to find and 4G64's in good shape are becoming easier and easier to find...
The stroker kits are usually only 2.3L at the very most.
Also, 4G63's in good shape are becoming harder and harder to find and 4G64's in good shape are becoming easier and easier to find...
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I think the stroker kits use 2.4L block and 2.0 liter crank...
Which parts do you plan on using from the 4g64? Like which crank, rods, pistons...
Which parts do you plan on using from the 4g64? Like which crank, rods, pistons...
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