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Copper head gasket vs. OEM Metal head gasket..

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Colin P

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Anyone know the benefits or bad points about using a copper head gasket? I've seen them selling for around $65 at Summit. They come in different thicknesess, I would just use the stock thickness. My friend told me he heard 'bad stuff' about the copper head gaskets not sealing or something, it had to do with the engine warming up or something like that. He said it was good for a race engine, but not a daily driver.. But that's just hearsay; he really wasn't sure what it was all about.

It would seem to me that a copper head gasket would be really strong. I don't know what would be disadvantageous about it, maybe someone here knows.

The OEM metal head gasket goes for near $100, so I know the big drawback to it is it's price.
 
#2 ·
Copper head gaskets should be avoid in DSMs. They are known for not sealing too well.

Regardless, I would stay away from using metal head gaskets. The theory behind that, is people have run 10s on the stock head gasket, and it's better to blow the head gasket, than cause piston damage.

The only real advantage of a metal head gasket, is they are reusuable.

Stick with stock.

Peter
 
#3 ·
A freind and I both tried copper head gaskets at relatively the same time about a year ago. And we both had the same results. Neither one of our cars would keep water.
It was horrible. Off boost the car was fine, but make a pass and you were filling it with water. This gets VERY annoying. It would push water out the overflow from pressurizing the cooling system.
Took the head off, no resurfacing or anything, put a stocker in, and WHALAA!! Problem solved.
This apparently comes from the THREE different metals being used. You have iron, aluminum, and copper all heating up and expanding at once. The kicker is that all three expand at different rates, and thus the sealing problems. What an incredible waste of money that was......................
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
0kay, thanks for the info on the copper gaskets, i guess i'll stay away from that..

..what about the oem metal head gasket? doesnt that come on the evo or something? right now it looks like im gonna stick with an oem gasket, just gotta decide if it's worth it to throw down the extra cash for the upgraded/metal one.
 
#5 ·
In my opinion, copper gaskets are crap, this dude a city over from me has a 4G63 Stroker and he had FFWD machine the block to accept a metal gasket, the copper gasket just dont stop leaking. A while back I installed a set on a supercharged mustang LX, an hour and a half later the car was blowing water onto the firewall under boost.

Anyhow, if you want a good gasket stock shit is it, Ralli-art and HKS also make awsome gaskets for our cars, they have a bead around the cylinders, water and oil ports and they usually dont leak. If your going to go with a reusable gasket go with the Ralli-art or HKS setup.

Storm
 
#6 ·
The only way that you can effectively use a copper head gasket is to get you head or block O-ringed. That is the only way it'll seal. The good thing with this is that it'll never blow. But the cost is high and a lot of unnecessary work. You cannot go wrong with the stock OEM gasket or the OEM metal. Like said earlier the difference is that the metal one is reusable. Good if your like me and tear your engine down with any kind of frequency.
 
#7 ·
In all honesty, you cant O-ring a metal gasket...ok in reality you can, but you will be making matters alot worst for yourself, having an O-ring crush a composite gasket is one thing, having a steel o-ring crush a copper gasket is another, I would imagine that doing so would cause even more coolant leaks than using a copper gasket without an O-ring. In my opinion, dish out the extra cash, buy a ralli 4-layer.

Storm
 
#8 ·
the OEM metal HG is known as the ralliart HG isn't it?

All it is is that it is reusable, and suitable if you have your head decked and the thicker OEM metal HG will shim you right back to stock specs in terms of height.
 
#9 ·
The metal gasket is actually made by ralliart, it is a bit thicker than the stock composite gasket so it will lower your compression a bit lower than stock.

Storm
 
#10 ·
IMHO, stick with the stock HG as Peter92TSI said. I have talked to many DSMer running great time and they never want anything else other than the stock HG. Do it once together with ARP headstuds and you are good to go.
 
#12 ·
DSM Storm said:
In all honesty, you cant O-ring a metal gasket...ok in reality you can, but you will be making matters alot worst for yourself, having an O-ring crush a composite gasket is one thing, having a steel o-ring crush a copper gasket is another, I would imagine that doing so would cause even more coolant leaks than using a copper gasket without an O-ring. In my opinion, dish out the extra cash, buy a ralli 4-layer.

Storm
Click to expand...
MY goodness man!
Have you ever even built a motor? Let alone built one that used a copper head gasket? They are soft as all hell!! That is why it is feasible and **necessary to o-ring**. It will never seal if you do not. The steel o-ring will imbed itself into the gasket and form a seal that no other gasket could provide period. The cost and extra work though aren't worth it unless you are in the middle of an engine build-up. The other types of metal head gaskets are a bit different though. Most are layered to allow compression of the gasket and seal just fine.
 
#13 ·
countersniper said:


MY goodness man!
Have you ever even built a motor? Let alone built one that used a copper head gasket? They are soft as all hell!! That is why it is feasible and **necessary to o-ring**. It will never seal if you do not. The steel o-ring will imbed itself into the gasket and form a seal that no other gasket could provide period. The cost and extra work though aren't worth it unless you are in the middle of an engine build-up. The other types of metal head gaskets are a bit different though. Most are layered to allow compression of the gasket and seal just fine.
Click to expand...

Obviously you didnt read above, I installed a set of a 302 and had bad luck with it. ; No, they are not "Soft as hell" as you claim them to be, they are ALOT harder than a composite gasket, sure they will seal compression when O-ringed, but like I stated above, you will have alot more problems loosing fluids than you will with a block that isnt O-ringed.
 
#14 ·
DSM Storm said:



Obviously you didnt read above, I installed a set of a 302 and had bad luck with it. ; No, they are not "Soft as hell" as you claim them to be, they are ALOT harder than a composite gasket, sure they will seal compression when O-ringed, but like I stated above, you will have alot more problems loosing fluids than you will with a block that isnt O-ringed.
Click to expand...
If a copper headgasket is to be used, Either the block or the head (or in some cases both Ring and reciever groove) MUST be oringed. PERIOD!!!!

Yes, the copper head gasket is "Soft as hell" RELATIVE to the steel orings that will crush into it. They appear harder then the composite only because the the composite is a COMPOSITE! The outside is a soft material designed to crush easily. The Center contains steel sheet which is harder then copper. The effect is that the composite outer surface crushes in forming the seal.

In an oringed block and copper head gasket setup, the metal of the oring will crush into the copper making an indentation. Frequently (and recommended) the opposite side is machined with a "receiver" groove that allows the copper gasket to also get crushed into this groove by the ring above.

This is by far one of the best ways to seal the block and head.

HOWEVER!!! It is not appropriate on a street engine because the metals have very different coefficients of thermal expansion.

In a race environment, this is "ok" because the head is usually removed often.

On the street, the many "heat cycles" of the engine will eventually cause the copper to have a "gap"

While the copper is very malleble, it does not have the "springiness" that the composite has. Therefore the constant heating up and cooling down will cause the seal to deteriorate.
 
#15 ·
>>In an oringed block and copper head gasket setup, the metal of the oring will crush into the copper making an indentation. Frequently (and recommended) the opposite side is machined with a "receiver" groove that allows the copper gasket to also get crushed into this groove by the ring above<<

Like I stated above, Its fine for sealing compression, but in everyday use theres a good chance its going to leak, no matter if its ringed.


>>HOWEVER!!! It is not appropriate on a street engine because the metals have very different coefficients of thermal expansion.<<

Right, and this is what im trying to say, if you use a copper gasket on the street, to get your wife from work, to go do groceries, to go to the bank and use it in every day use its going to leak. Copper isnt meant for every day use, copper gaskets are recommended for racing purposes only, this guy isnt building a race only car, he is going to drive it every day, that is why I recommended an HKS or Ralli gasket.


>>In a race environment, this is "ok" because the head is usually removed often. <<

I dont think that why it is "OK", I think the fact that the race car goes from a trailor, to the staging lanes, down the track is more of a reason why it is for competition purposes only.

>>While the copper is very malleble, it does not have the "springiness" that the composite has. Therefore the constant heating up and cooling down will cause the seal to deteriorate.<<

Thats cool, I didnt know that.


Storm
 
#16 ·
Yea um.. I used a copper head gasket and ARP studs on my 1g, and it worked well! That is until I drove it... Im going down the highway and BAM oops, overheated. I ripped the head off, oil/coolant ALL OVER THE PLACE. So I put in the OEM one, slapped my ARPs back on, and walla! All better. Copper headgaskets on stock motors SUCK.
 
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