I know my throw-out bearing is bad, but.....

damnslowtalon · Apr 5, 2002

would this be enough noise for the knock sensor to pick up and pull my timing at all? The reason I ask is because after work today, I started my car, and I heard a chattering noise, and the car ran like complete shit. I had a couple of our techs come outside and listen to it, and they agreed that the chattering noise was a bad throw out bearing. Funny thing is, the car was fine on the way to work this morning.

My theory is, that the knock sensor is picking up the rattling, and pulling my timing, causing the car to stutter and miss and basically run like ass. When I hit boost, the gauge (AutoMeter, not the stock one) reads the normal 10-11 psi, and the air fuel gauge is in the rich...also normal, but idling and driving, the engine stutters/misses etc. etc.

Any thoughts, comments, or ideas would be greatly appreciated - I need my car back on the road ASAP.
Thanks,

Jim

barney · Apr 6, 2002

Due to some bad lifters, last summer my knock sensor was causing the timing to be pulled to the point where the car could hardly pull away from a stop sign but it didn't studder or miss.

Taboo · Apr 6, 2002

You can feel if the t/o bearing is bad on the clutch release fork (the sound should also change as you engage/disengage the clutch). The car shouldn't studder and miss at idle, though. You can test if the knock sensor picks up the t/o bearing noise by removing it from the block and grounding it. Personally, I'd drop the oil pan and check the balance shafts bearings (if you still have the balance shafts).. Good luck.

Blackboost · Apr 6, 2002

I had a similar problem a while ago, when I installed my ACT 2600. The car was working fine and then one morning I wnet ot start it and it was shattering like someone scratching metal with metal. I put the clutch pedal down and the sound disappeared, let the clutch pedal the sound came back. While drivng after warming up the sound disappeared from time to time. So, I went and took the tranny out to check the release bearing. THe bastard seemed okay, but had very little grease on the center. So I added some grease to it, put it back together and that was it. No more clutch release bearing sound from now on. Did, I telled you that when it shattered the car ran like shit??

iss:Timing was getting pulled and stuff like that.

damnslowtalon · Apr 6, 2002

A little update.......this morning I started my car, clattering noise was gone, but the car still runs like shit. I'm running waaaay to rich (my exhaust reeks of fuel), so I decided to disconnect my O2 sensor - sure enough, the car still ran the same way. Leading me to believe that the sensor went bad, the ECU defaulted to a really rich condition, and fouled out my plugs. Makes sense, I think?? I can't find my spark plug socket right now, so I can't pull my plugs to check, but does that make sense to you guys and would it explain the engine running like ass?

Thanks,
jim

Blackboost · Apr 6, 2002

Put new plugs in your car and reset the ECU. It may run shitty for the first few minutes, but once it programs itself again; it will start running nice. Provided that it doesn't detect the chattering again that will lead the knock sensor to detect knock and the ECU to retard the timing again...

damnslowtalon · Apr 6, 2002

Hmmm....checked the plugs, re-gapped them, put them back in, car still ran like ass. Pulled off my timing cover, AND MY TIMING BELT IS BEING SCRAPED AGAIN AFTER I JUST HAD THE TIMING BELT AND TENSIONER DONE 6000 MILES AGO. The belt is a little loose, and I think...no, i know my timing is off. Son of a bitch....This car is such a piece of shit....looks like I'm gonna be without it for another week.....yay.

Blackboost · Apr 6, 2002

damnslowtalon said:
Hmmm....checked the plugs, re-gapped them, put them back in, car still ran like ass. Pulled off my timing cover, AND MY TIMING BELT IS BEING SCRAPED AGAIN AFTER I JUST HAD THE TIMING BELT AND TENSIONER DONE 6000 MILES AGO. The belt is a little loose, and I think...no, i know my timing is off. Son of a bitch....This car is such a piece of shit....looks like I'm gonna be without it for another week.....yay.

Damn bro, that sucks big time. Maybe there is something under the timing belt cover that is scraping the belt big time. A lose bolt or something like that.

damnslowtalon · Apr 7, 2002

Yeah, i think my timing jumped - the belt seems too loose, and it's the same thing that happened last time - the tensioner bolt came loose and started scraping the belt, so i had the whole tensioner and belt and bolt replaced....i don't fuckin' know....i'm too pissed off right now.....

Taboo · Apr 7, 2002

If the t-belt is scraped on the outside, check the oil pan to front case bolts. There's a couple of oil pan bolts that are shorter than the rest of them (the middle one - by the crank sprocket and the one by the oil pump sprocket). If they're accidentaly swapped for the longer bolts, they'll rub against the t-belt (especially the bolt by the crank sprocket). The front balance shaft belt is OK? Do both balance shafts spin freely? If you still have the balance shafts, you might as well get rid of them at this point, since it's one of the best modifications to greatly increase the reliability of the car. If you spun the balance shaft bearing and the shaft seized, that's what will cause the t-belt to jump as well.. Hopefully you didn't bend any valves.

Good luck.

damnslowtalon · Apr 7, 2002

What does it mean if the t-belt is scraped on the inside (side next to the motor)? Balance shaft belt seems OK, and I started it again this morning, sounded alright, the idle was still really funny and I was still running pig-rich, but if I had bent valves, correct me if I'm wrong, you'd hear them knocking against the pistons??

Thanks again for all the help, guys, I really appreciate it.

-jim

MeanGreenDSM · Apr 8, 2002

Taboo there's two near the crankshaft pulley...like one to the right (in b/w crank pulley and oil pump) and one to the left of the pulley (but closer)...which one do I install a short bolt on? Also when you say oil pump one...you mean the one right like touching the oil pump sprocket (a little to the right side)

And the guy w/ the red talon: Some of the vets correct me if I'm wrong but isn't an easy way to check timing is to simply take off upper cover...and rotate crank so that the ignition timing tick is aligned w/ TDC and the two camshaft ticks are aligned. If it all lines up...then valves must be all closed...and pistons @ TDC.

Taboo · Apr 8, 2002

Taboo · Apr 8, 2002

damnslowtalon said:
What does it mean if the t-belt is scraped on the inside (side next to the motor)? Balance shaft belt seems OK, and I started it again this morning, sounded alright, the idle was still really funny and I was still running pig-rich, but if I had bent valves, correct me if I'm wrong, you'd hear them knocking against the pistons??

Jim,
I meant the top, toothless side of the t-belt as the "outside" side of the belt. If the bolt to the right of the crank sprocket is accidentally swapped for one of the long ones, it will rub against the belt. If the t-belt is scraped on the side next to the motor, your tensioner pulley is most likely worn and walks or the hydraulic tensioner doesn't put enough tension on the belt. You might take off the upper t-belt cover, put some white shoe-polish on the side of the t-belt that rubs, start the engine for a few minutes, take off the front cover and see where the t-belt rubs (most likely against the tensioner, right underneath the tensioner pulley). The tensioner pulley could also be the source of the noise.

If the valves are bent just a little, the car would be just hard to start, but it would still run (like crap, though). You wouldn't necessarily hear the valves knocking against the pistons (the pistons will hit them just as long as they're in the way - which may take just one single turn of the crank). Unless you bend the valves the way SilverTSI or Dsmman bent theirs, the valves will still go up and down, they just won't seal all the way (which will result in very low compression, but not 0). Running a compression test would give the needed answers. If the test doesn't check out OK, pressurize the cylinders one by one (you'll be able to hear the valves leaking - if they do).

The valves are closed any time the timing marks on the camshaft sprockets are aligned - which, of course, doesn't necessarily mean the #1 piston is in TDC (if the t-belt jumped). In my opinion, it's very hard to see (with just the upper t-belt cover removed) if the crank sprocket is perfectly aligned with the timing mark (it's very hard to tell if the t-belt is 1 tooth off). The only way to be 100% sure is taking off the front cover..

MeanGreenDSM · Apr 8, 2002

TABOO YOU'RE THE MAN!!!!!

damnslowtalon · Apr 8, 2002

A little update - I crawled underneath the car last night, and from what I could see, there was nothing bolt-wise touching the timing belt.

I took the car up to the guy (Chrysler tech - his FWD Talon does 11.90's) who did my timing belt the last time - I don't think it's really his fault, it was doing the same thing the last time I got the belt done (scraping, etc.) so I figure it has to be something else - i.e. a pulley or something a little out of alignment or not tight enough - who knows - I'll let him figure it out. (Holy run-on sentence, Batman

) There goes another couple hundred bucks down the shitter - I think with all the $$ I've sunk into repairing this thing, I could be driving a 10 second car

BTW - Thanks for all the help guys, I REALLY appreciate it - I'll buy you lunch and a couple of beers if you guys are ever in the PA area.

-jim

Silver TSI · Apr 8, 2002

Do you have cam gear cover on the car? My T-belt was rubbing on that and wearing the belt down. Also, if you bent valves, it would sound like you swapped a briggs and stratton lawnmower engine in there.

damnslowtalon · Apr 8, 2002

WTF?? Apparently, Chrysler failed to tell me (does it surprise you

) that they've since changed the design of the belt. The new design, complete with a different part number, is and upgraded version of the old one. Apparently the old one had a poor design of the teeth - causing the belt to stretch and the motor to jump time. I guess what happened is that they gave me a belt last time that was of the OLD DESIGN - those bastards. Long story short, I ordered a new one, and the car should be (knock on wood) back on the road tomorrow night. I'm gonna go after Chrysler and see if I can't recoup (sp?) the cost of the old belt, being that they gave me an old one, not the updated one.

Thanks for the help guys, as soon as I get some $$, I'll UPS all of you a 6-pack or something.....

-jim

I know my throw-out bearing is bad, but.....

damnslowtalon

barney

Taboo

Blackboost

damnslowtalon

Blackboost

damnslowtalon

Blackboost

damnslowtalon

Taboo

damnslowtalon

MeanGreenDSM

Taboo

Taboo

MeanGreenDSM

damnslowtalon

Silver TSI

damnslowtalon

Top Contributors this Month

Recommended Communities