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Internal/External Wastegate Differences

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trooth

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
What are the pro's and con's of internal/external wastegates?

What I'm planning on doing is....

Turbo w/ external wastegate + dumptube. That seems the best combo I've been able to find. Unless I'm very confused, I will still need an O2 housing, correct? :scratches head:

Thanks for the help. PS - I've done searches for internal vs external, and internal/external and came up with 186 threads of which provided not much assistance. I'd appreciate responses or links to other threads discussing such.. as I was already unable to find them :D

Thanks all... ;)
 
#2 ·
Dont know too much anout the subject but i think the main benefit of an external wastegate is you eliminate boost spike, ie control boost better. Just make sure you get the proper sized wastegate for the size turbo you have. You also get the sexy sound of an external waste gate :)


I think the only benefit of an external waste gate is emissions and i guess quietness if you want to stay sleeper?:confused:
 
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#3 ·
a dump tube is attached to the o2 housing and is illegal to run (if this concerns you?). it will just dump exhaust gas into the atmosphere instead of rerouting them. they are loud when the gate opens!! what type of turbo are you going to run...this will help out with replies? most larger turbos use external gates, however some big ones (such as the FP green, Mutts) can/do use internal gates. i dont know how such huge turbos with internals fair (like the green)...maybe someone will post. "mutt" turbos use internal gates (with large flappers) so you can check out the some of the LONG threads in the parts review section posted by VAN and others. depending on the turbo you choose you will get recommendations on which setup to go with.
 
#4 ·
oh yeah..im not sure since your mods arent listed...but i was just wondering if you know that you are going to need support for a larger turbo (especially if you are going with an external waste gate and big turbo). intercooling? injectors? fuel management? ...etc etc. im just wondering since some people come on here and want to chuck on these monster turbos that have very little knowledge of DSMs and what is involved to support such a power increase. all of the factors listed are going to come into the equation. it will be helpful if you list what you already have (or plan to get) so that experienced guys can give better advice on your new turbo set up.

there is a post by nick drake (which i cant find but read the other day) explaining what is involved with such large turbos (thread comparing 20g to 16g). its a good summary of what is truly need to maximize/support LARGE turbos, and how one must "know what they are getting into" before buying a beast of a turbo. he will give you some expert advice if he reads this.
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
Understood.

I'm going more then likely with the FP Green. Most supporting mods are already associated with it. So far what I have is the following...

(This is for my 90 TSi AWD)

1G head:
Crower Stage 2 Cams
Crower Cam Gears
Crower springs / retainers
Ported/Polished, 5 angle valve (intake), 3 angle (exhaust)

1G block - 6bolt:
.040 over, bored/honed using torque plate
Eagle Rods
Ross Pistons
Balance Shafts removed
ACT2600 + Fidanza Flywheel

Fuel:
Walbro 255
660s for now, have a set of 720's ready.
FPR

Yadda yadda and other misc. BS parts... but I'm good to go for the build, just trying to figure out the main differences in wastegates, and which would be a better application for me. I've heard external w/ dumptube seems to be the best for the Green.. but i wanted other opinions. Thanks for hte help.. let me knwo if you need anymore info.
 
#6 ·
If your going with a green I'd get a 46mm tial external. I beleive you can get an internal green But if you call FP they will recommend an external gate. You can get the external gate on a dump tube routed back into the exhaust thus lowering noise and staying emmisions friendly(unless you don't have a cat in which place it doesn't matter :D).

Later,
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
Cat? We dont need no stinkin' cat. ;)

And I really could care less about noise and not being legal. Umm hi, I'm building a car that won't pass emissions anyway. :) Thats what money is for.
 
#8 ·
External gate will eliminate boost creep. With a larger turbo it would be ideal. You don't really need an o2 housing then, just a way to plumb the sensor in there. You can dump the external however you like. If you have the cash for a huge ass turbo like that then why go with the inferior internal gate. It wouldn't make sense.
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
mm k. So, I'm really confusing myself i think.

I am gonna order the little 'kit' turbotrix sells, the EVO manifold, tial external wastegate and dumptube. do I still need a o2 housing or what?

yes, im building an engine. no, i dont understand this dumptube shit. someone break it down for a computer guy having a bad server day. :)
 
#10 ·
If you are using an external dump, it will take the place of your O2 housing. It is in effect your housing (which serves the purpose of getting exhaust gasses to the DP and providing a spot for your upstream O2 sensor). Here is a picture of what it looks like:
http://forcedperformance.net/images/products/custom_o2.jpg

It goes between the turbo and the downpipe.
 
#11 ·
trooth said:
mm k. So, I'm really confusing myself i think.

I am gonna order the little 'kit' turbotrix sells, the EVO manifold, tial external wastegate and dumptube. do I still need a o2 housing or what?

yes, im building an engine. no, i dont understand this dumptube shit. someone break it down for a computer guy having a bad server day. :)
Click to expand...
Have you spoken to Robert or anyone at FP? They can help you with the O2 questions and matching it up to the Green. If you are going Green I agree with the concensus of an external but I suggest a custom O2 housing for mounting the TIAL WG as opposed to a manifold mounted unit. FP makes them and so does Victory Performance. To answer you question, a custom O2 REPLACES the stock one. You have to take the D Pipe into consideration as well.

As for the dump. That is personal preference. External dumps can be too loud for some people. I know of some people who have had them then switched back to exhaust dump. I did not know the were illegal.

I run an EVO housing and it works fantastic with an internally mounted gate and 3 inch exhaust.
 
#13 ·
IMO external wastegate is not necessary if you have supporting mod. Loren ran 11.53 with internally gated green. You will need to run 18psi and above to eliminate creep problem. You should at least plan on running 18psi and up as street boost anyway with the Green.
 
#14 ·
External dump is illegal for 2 reasons, neither of which most of us give a damn about. 1) It vents raw exhaust gasses to the atmosphere with out running thm through any type of emissions control (which will, no doubt, single handedly cause a MASSIVE hole is the Ozone directly above your car, which the feds will use to track your mischevious behavior).:mad: Not to mention the fact that the driver of the environmentally friendly big rig diesel next to your car will certainly be repulsed by the ever so offensive smell of raw exhaust! :puke: 2) the dump tube vents exhaust into the atmosphere without running it through any type of noise reducer (read MUFFLER). If you decide on an external dump, you should never drive your car after dark so you will not wake anyone who is trying to sleep.:rolleyes:

Hope that helps clear some things up.:D As far as the whole legality thing goes....It is also illegal to exceed the speed limit, or roll through a stop sign, you get the idea.
 
#15 ·
I would recommend talking to Loren personally about the internal gate on the green. He ran a really fast time with it, but his car is a freak of nature. He was running 11s on the t28. My dream turbo is a green or FP30.

Yes, the external dump is extremely loud. Loud like a Harely. But...it is only lound when the gate is open (when you are WOT). The car is its normal quiet self when cruising through neighborhoods after dark as long as you don't get lead foot.
 
#16 ·
You guys are forgeting the most important difference.
If you (you should) buy a tial, you'll get a very pretty piece. And you get the Wow factor from the rice boys and you can tell them that it is the flame thrower for your exhaust or fibulator for high speeds that they could only dream of having!
Or you could tell them that when driving it shoots out an invisible bubble around your car which makes it more aerodynamically efficient.
 
#17 ·
jw said:
IMO external wastegate is not necessary if you have supporting mod. Loren ran 11.53 with internally gated green. You will need to run 18psi and above to eliminate creep problem. You should at least plan on running 18psi and up as street boost anyway with the Green.
Click to expand...
Again we have this awesome example! Hey one car in the world can do so why can't we all? Now if you could say well thses 30 other cars are doing the same thing, then you would have a point.

"One experiment does not create the absolute!"
 
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