Variable Propane Tested!

greenstreak · Aug 13, 2002

Jeeze, I step away from this thread for a couple of days and look what happens.

Yes, I have purchased a propane injection kit and I will be installing it this week. My beater car threw the accessory belt so it may start a little later than planned.

I have plans to hit the dyno in Sept. hopefully and there I will be able to document some hp results with the propane on and off. I was going to go do some race gas tuning but I will just do pump gas with and without the injection and see what happens. With no fuel admustments at all I am interested to see the change in A/F. I will get my sheets showing a/f ratio as measured by the wideband and hp/torque numbers. I would like to be able to answer alot of the unknowns at this point so if I don't think of something that you all think is necessary please let me know.

Also, about Van. I trust noone more on this board when it comes to this kind of stuff. He is not easily won over by gimmicks but has proven in the past to be able to pull excellent results from even the most basic of setups. He is purely after information and not trying to blast anyone. There are alot of people in this market that are after the next best thing whether the idea has merit or not or has been proven or not. Van is just trying to bring out the facts so decisions can be based on well thought out arguments.

If I have good results with this kit and Van decides to give it a go I can guarantee he will have better results.

Stay tuned for some results!

danl · Aug 13, 2002

import power on said:
Actually the Intake itself will still feel warm as normal. The temp change of the charge inside is not great enough to actually lower the temp of the Metal of the intake itself.

Good question though!

SO basically their is little to no cooling effect. Propane is just adding fuel (of a much higher octane BTW) to combat the detonation.

import power on · Aug 13, 2002

danl said:
SO basically their is little to no cooling effect. Propane is just adding fuel (of a much higher octane BTW) to combat the detonation.

No, it is cooling, as noted previously as I ran more (and hard) egts lowered. But you would have to have a massive temp change to effect the temp of a thick metal Inake that is getting heated form underhood temps.

danl · Aug 13, 2002

SO the extra fuel (propane) is richening up the a/f mixture resulting in lower egt's. This allows you to run more boost.

import power on · Aug 13, 2002

danl said:
SO the extra fuel (propane) is richening up the a/f mixture resulting in lower egt's. This allows you to run more boost.

Not really...

I run the same A/F with propane as I do off it. I lean out the gas mixtuer when I run Propane. Of course when it runs out I go lean. But running rich will loose power.

So, with the same exact O2's at WOT I run cooler with Propane. This nets more power.

To just run higher (richer) O2's to cool EGTs you would loose power. No sense in that...

danl · Aug 13, 2002

SO, you are using the octane bump the propane provides to run leaner, thus more power.

greenstreak · Aug 13, 2002

danl said:
SO, you are using the octane bump the propane provides to run leaner, thus more power.

.....and with little to no knock. On pump gas you can only lean out so far until you hit a certain threshold of knock. The cooling effect of the propane and the higher octane allow you to run leaner than you would on pump gas before hitting that knock threshold.

TheObiJuan · Aug 13, 2002

and if the propane line gets clogged or pinched? or if the solenoid fails does your engine blow since it is calibrated to use propane?

import power on · Aug 13, 2002

I don't run that on the edge that a propane loss would cause catastrophe. And my eyes are always on the EGT (peak hold alarm).

I back of the pump gas when I run propane. So when propan runs i am running the same A/F-O2s as I would just on gas.

Example:

And I know this seems rich for DSM, this is for VR4s ONLY. Check 3si.org, do a search or just ask.

VR4s like running in the 92-96 O2 window. Above 96 is starts to stumble from rich under 92 lean out. 94 lust barely leaning towards 96 is best. I know DSMs like 80's. Our cars do not. It may be where the O2 sensor is located..

Anywho

With just gas I will run a 96 O2

With propane I will adjust the gas down to compensate for the additional fuel the Propane is adding. This equates to about 3-4% pull form my HKS Super AFR.

In the end my O2s are still 96, just made up of Gas and Propane.

To just richen it up without any adjustment of main fuel would be silly and just yield over rich no power results.

If propane runs out I am not so lean that a big problem will hit. I keep an eye on everything as anyone should.

TheObiJuan · Aug 13, 2002

good answer. just keeping you on the edge...

import power on · Aug 13, 2002

TheObiJuan said:
good answer. just keeping you on the edge...

It's all good, this is new to most and lots of questions need to be answered

migamb · Aug 25, 2002

I still findit hard to understadn why people are so skeptical. Just like using nitrous, race gas, waer injection the bottom line is that properly tuning a car means having a stedy timing curve which means lower knock counts. Just as a coincidence I was watching a hot rod TV show on TNN and they had installed a propane inejction kit on a bog truck and it added about 80 HP to the wheels. To me this was impressive considering it was not even a turbo truck. I understand people might question the particular system for sale here but the principle of propane injection is fairly old and has been used and proven on different platforms. I haved owned 4 DSM's and have been around this scene for a while and for some reason DSM owners are typically not receptive to things that have worked for years on other cars. Just read different threads on this board about Water Injection, Cold Air Intake, Xylene for race gas and you will see how skeptical most of us here are.

danl · Aug 25, 2002

Not trying to be a smartass, but if we believed everything we've heard, we'd have tornado intakes on our vehicles. Yes DSM'ers may be skeptical, but look at out success. A 2L 4 cylinder that we've as a collective hole found some very good potential out of. Understand that some of that success comes from skepticsm, ingenuity, and engineering. I believe that out of skepticism comes improvement.

greenstreak · Aug 25, 2002

Just wanted to let you guys know that I got my package quickly but I haven't had much time to install it yet. Work demands unexpectadly increased over the past 2 weeks. I am going to get it on as soon as possible though.

turboniam · Aug 25, 2002

greenstreak said:
Just wanted to let you guys know that I got my package quickly but I haven't had much time to install it yet. Work demands unexpectadly increased over the past 2 weeks. I am going to get it on as soon as possible though.

:crackit:

migamb · Aug 26, 2002

I wasn't questioning DSm guys since obviously I am one of them. Something like the Tornado is all BS since there isno hard data. In this thread we are talking about a theory which has been proven on other platforms. If you have been around DSm's for over 5 years you can see how we have started to adapt to new things that have been used. If you read all the upgrade paths like the one in RRE, DDP, Buschur they are basically the same and are good paths to take. The problem is that people don't want to deviate from the standard when in fact we should use what has woked already for years in other platforms for our own benefit. Like I said before I am not saying this system is good just the principle of propane injection.

JayHäss · Aug 27, 2002

migamb said:
Just as a coincidence I was watching a hot rod TV show on TNN and they had installed a propane inejction kit on a bog truck and it added about 80 HP to the wheels. To me this was impressive considering it was not even a turbo truck.

You realize that diesel and gas engines are complete opposites right?

Propane is like nitrous to a diesel.

Apples <> Oranges

JayHäss · Aug 27, 2002

You all might want to read some of this: http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47710&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

Go about half way down when "Import Power" started slamming water injection and read on. This is posted just for the information contained. I think everyone needs to make an informed decision whether this product is right for you or not.

I have a few tough questions for Mr Import Power here.

I would like to know why he lied about his boost levels and changed what he could run when it seemed to fit his arguement?

In the thread posted above he claims with water injection he can only run 14psi before knock and I quote: I have tried one nozzel, two, location changes. With 91 octane it helps with MAYBE 1-2 psi. I can only run around 14psi before knock. On 101 mobil unleaded I can run clear up to 22psi no knock. Screw water. I am devolping a propane injection system in conjuction with Diesel Performance Products, they have been building propane for many many years.

This should allow me to run 91 octane and 20+ psi no problem.

Yet in this thread when he is testing the system he runs 18psi?
With Water-Alky and 18psi running hard to redline from 1st thru 3rd

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54548&highlight=propane+data

And yet again a few posts later we are back at 13psi max with knock
I go home frustrated and can only max out at 13psi before I get knock

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showt...showthread.php?s=&threadid=54548&perpage=25&highlight=propane data&pagenumber=2

Now we are back up to 19psi here:
91 octane 100F outside BRIGHT sun so blacktop is HOT. You will notice the Air temps are 20+ degrees hotter than previous logs

This was after 2 hours of hard WOT tuning the setup again. The HKS IC's were too hot to TOUCH. BLAZING hot! I run MANY logs so the time stamps are not to be compared between snapshots. They are all from different logs. Back to back runs, no rest between runs except to turn on and off propane and reset log.

19PSI on TEC 17Gs

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46147&perpage=25&pagenumber=3

In that thread I also asked you why the variance in boost when you still had 20* advance with 19psi of boost on pump gas!

You then claimed that you use a pocket logger and it's not accurate. Great.

There were several replies asking you the same thing on the next page:

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46147&perpage=25&pagenumber=4

and you SAID

Oh,

HECK NO, I couldnever run 19psi on pump 91 octane. My motor would detonate till it fell into peices. I have higher compression pistons than stock and large turbos.

14psi max on pump b4 knock starts to creep in.

19psi-21 on propane and still no to little knock

Dude, you just said a few posts back you ran 19psi on 91 octane in blazing heat!

WTF!

I'm not trying to slam you or your product but you have to be the most inconsistent person I have seen post results of a product.

Your story changes and boost levels vary wildly.

All the while people are sending you money for kits. Nice.

GUYS DO YOUR RESEARCH before blindly sending someone cash.

I think my words in a prior conversation went like this:
Why the hell would I pay $1200 to put a gas grill tank in my car I have to refill every other week to pick up a couple lbs of boost when a much more advanced water system is available for $320 and water is FREE.

If you take this as an outright slam so be it, YOU posted the information. I just read it and kept my mouth shut about it for a long time but enough is enough.

import power on · Aug 27, 2002

JayHäss said:
I think my words in a prior conversation went like this:
Why the hell would I pay $1200 to put a gas grill tank in my car I have to refill every other week to pick up a couple lbs of boost when a much more advanced water system is available for $320 and water is FREE.

$1200? Our system is $300 shipped and EVERYONE who has it (over 40 kits now) love the results. In just about every type of forced induction car there is. Of course DSMs don't follow physics so this kit is not for you

Van · Aug 27, 2002

import power on said:
Our system is $300 shipped and EVERYONE who has it (over 40 kits now) love the results.

Hmmm, well what you are saying is that you've profitted approx $4k to $7k and yet NO ONE has produced actual timeslips with their tuning differences and associated info, dyno charts, or real proof of this benefitting them moreso than race fuel.
Most of us know someone here that can be trusted, has bought your kit already. We await his REAL review, comments, etc.

While you're not infringing on the vendor policy, too much, in this thread. You don't post squat else for the benefit of talkers on this site. Ya know some of the best DSM vendors come here and post info, facts, clarify misinformation and yet they don't "push" their products repeatedly within several threads that they started and only post in those threads that they started. Right after this thread "disappears" off of the "front" page you conveniently bump it back up with some "info," hehe... It just looks bad, IMHO.

And sometimes, you refuse, repeatedly, to answer the pointed questions you are asked by "twisting" your reply around. I could point out at least six occurrences of this fact very easily on this very board. God forbid I go to the other forums and link everytime it happened there, I could fill a page or two.

I do think propane injection could benefit some people's set-ups, how much so, I guess we'll see. I wanna see the MPH differences on a timeslip in an awd dsm over race gas with the SAME boost level being run, from an unbiased source. This IMHO, will let all the newbies here see if this is for them. Ya know bang for the buck?! ie: HKS cams cost $550 or so and yield 40HP to the wheels (with a larger than stock turbo.) $13.75 per HP, AND without running/stressing/overboosting the shit out of their turbo, putting a tank inside the car or requiring a blowdown kit at EXTRA cost, just to be safe.

It's probably time to lock this thread, but let's see what happens with it.

Maybe a real customer will actually do a REAL review without BS, for ya soon...

Variable Propane Tested!

greenstreak

danl

import power on

danl

import power on

danl

greenstreak

TheObiJuan

import power on

TheObiJuan

import power on

migamb

danl

greenstreak

turboniam

migamb

JayHäss

JayHäss

import power on

Van

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