Variable Propane Tested!

import power on · Aug 27, 2002

We were not trying to sell with the last post at all, but someone posted that it cost $1200 when it is $300. That needed to be cleared up.

Close the thread, lock it, delete. No harm done. We sell to every other market with great success and results. We certainly don't need DSMtalk to spread the word to DSMs. That's what the higher end people at DSMtuners is for. They understand the concept that has been a proven benefit for years before we came around.

I think it is time to move on and delete the thread before any DSMtalk people get wind of a proven technology (proven by others not us for years). We all know DSMs don't follow the normal laws of physics...

99GTsc · Aug 27, 2002

I love your professionalism. Good job.

import power on · Aug 27, 2002

99GTsc said:
I love your professionalism. Good job.

Thanks

At some point it becomes ridiculous. All other types, makes and models have embraced the concept. And not just my system, other companies make them also. To be constantly bashed for a concept we did not even come up with that is proven becomes old. We don't need DSMtalk if all they are going to do is bash. If it were a bad concept so many companies would not sell it and customers would not have great results. Professional? At this point we are tired of being pissed on so we really don't care. It won't hurt our numbers to piss off a few DSMtalk people. We have a following in all other areas including DSMs...

Back anyone into a corner and eventually they will bark.

JayHäss · Aug 27, 2002

the $1200 figure was in an old thread. A *good* propane system with all the tricks and safety equipment for a diesel application will cost you over $1000. Yes there are cheaper but you get what you pay for. Since your "kit" wasn't out at the time that thread was written that's where the figure came from.

The fact that you are selling a comprehensive system for $300 makes me wonder.

You talk about being backed into a corner and all I see is you skirting the truth when you are asked for real world information and/or get caught in a lie.

The bottom line is YOU wrote all that stuff above not me. Take responsibility for your own actions instead of crying you're going to take your ball and go home.

Insulting the people here doesnt help your cause.

I think propane is better suited to a diesel application. That's my opinion, and you can't change that. Just for the hell of it I'm going to post the information I left you a few months back since you seem to think you have the "laws of physics" down when you really don't even understand the very thing you are selling.

You said Propane has an octane rating of 140. Propane is NOT 140 octane. That's just pure hogwash.

At it's lowest R+M/2 propane is only *104* octane, at it highest possible it's R+m/2 is 118. So diluting propane with 75% 91 octane...in other words 75% of your fueling needs from gasoline and 25% from propane using the highest possible number for the propane you end up with an effective octane rating of 97.7. THAT'S IT.

Here is a chart I have on propanes characteristics vs methanol and gasoline. My family raced pro-stocks professionally and I was involved with it so I know a thing or two about fuel mixture.

Methane--Propane--Gasoline

Autoignition point F 1,000-1,350 874 365

Autoignition point C 538-732 468-494 185

Flammability Limits vol percent 5-15 2.1-9.5 1.4-7.6

Stoichometric A/F kg / kg 17.3 15.3 14.7

Stoichometric A/F m3/m3 9.7 24.6

Research octane number 130 112-125 91-95

Motor octane number 105 97-111 82-88

Relative CO2/Btu 0.76 0.92 1.0

If you want to talk about specific gravity the specific gravity of propane relative to air (air = 1.00) is 0.56 to 0.62 depending on gas composition. C16 race fuel is about .68 so there is no major change there either.

In regards to blowing propane into the intake stream, for propane, the gas displacement effect is 4%, it means that the displacement of air by propane causes reduction in power of 4 % (volumetric efficiency decrease) from an equilevent gasoline counterpart. Gasoline on the other hand, provides evaporotive cooling of the intake air which increases the intake air density and increases the power.

Those are some facts about propane. I know it well, I suggest you do your research before you try and sell it as the be all that ends all.

I await your response.

Oh yea and Van it *will* *not* help you more than race fuel in any real way you can measure. I promise you this, but I'll let time be the judge. I'm confident of that.

import power on · Aug 27, 2002

Propane on average is 110 octane but can fluctuate higher

JayHäss · Aug 27, 2002

Posted by Import Power On on 06-23-2002 11:04 PM

Propane is up to 140octane

Another lie on your part?

import power on · Aug 28, 2002

import power on said:
Propane on average is 110 octane but can fluctuate higher

And it can be found in data sheets around the net up to 140. But for the most part it is 110

JayHäss · Aug 28, 2002

Research, motor or r+m/2 ?

import power on · Aug 28, 2002

JayHäss said:
Research, motor or r+m/2 ?

(R + M)/2

Everything you ever wanted to know about LPG (and some you didn't)

1. What is Propane and History of Propane

Propane is a kissing cousin of natural gas and petroleum. Propane is usually found mixed with natural gas and petroleum deposits in rocks deep underground. Propane is called a fossil fuel because it was formed millions of years ago from the remains of tiny sea animals and plants.

When the plants and animals died, they sank to the bottom of the oceans where they were buried by layers of sand and silt. Over the years, the layers became thousands of feet thick. The layers were subjected to enormous heat and pressure, changing the energy-rich remains into petroleum and natural gas deposits. Eventually, pockets of these fossil fuels became trapped in rock layers much as a wet household sponge holds water.

Propane is just one of the many fossil fuels that are included in the liquefied petroleum (LP) gas family. Because propane is the type of LP-gas most commonly used in the United States, "propane" and "LP-gas" are often used synonymously. The chemical formula for propane is C3H8.

Just as water can change its physical state and become a liquid or a gas (steam vapor), so can propane. Under normal atmospheric pressure and temperature, propane is a gas. Under moderate pressure and/or lower temperatures, however, propane changes into a liquid. And that's the beauty of it.

Propane is easily stored as a liquid in pressurized tanks. (Think of the small tanks you see attached to a gas barbecue grill, for example.)

Propane takes up much less space in its liquid form. It is 270 times more compact in its liquid state than it is as a gas. A thousand gallon tank holding gaseous propane would provide a family enough cooking fuel for one week. A thousand gallon tank holding liquid propane would provide enough cooking fuel for almost ten years! Liquid propane instantly vaporizes into a gas when it is released from its tank to fuel propane gas appliances and equipment. Propane has been nicknamed the "portable gas" because it is easier to store and transport than natural gas.

Like its close cousin natural gas, propane is colorless and odorless. An odorant is added to propane (as it is to natural gas) to serve as a warning agent for escaping gas. And like all the fossil fuels---coal, natural gas, and petroleum--propane is a nonrenewable energy source.

History of Propane

Propane does not have a long history. It wasn't discovered until 1912 when people were trying to find a way to store gasoline. The problem with gasoline was that it evaporated when stored under normal conditions.

Dr. Walter Snelling, directing a series of experiments for the U.S. Bureau of Mines, discovered that several evaporating gases could be changed into liquids and stored at moderate pressure. The most plentiful of these gases was propane. Dr. Snelling developed a way to "bottle" the wet (liquid) gas. One year later, the commercial propane industry began heating American homes.

2. Producing and Transporting Propane

Propane comes from natural gas and petroleum wells. Fifty-five percent of the propane used in the United States is extracted from raw natural gas. (Raw natural gas is natural gas that hasn't been cleaned and processed yet.) Raw natural gas contains about 90 percent methane, five percent propane, and five percent other gases. The propane is separated from the other gases at a natural gas processing plant.

The remaining 45 percent is extracted from petroleum. Petroleum is separated into its various parts at a processing plant called a refinery.

Transporting Propane

How does propane get from natural gas processing plants or oil refineries to the consumer? Generally, propane first moves through underground pipelines to distribution terminals across the nation. Distribution terminals, which are operated by propane companies, function similarly to warehouses that store merchandise before shipping it to stores and shops. Sometimes, especially in the summer when less energy is needed for heating, propane is stored in large underground storage caverns.

After storage at distribution terminals, propane is transported via railroad tank cars, trucks, barges, and tanker ships to bulk plants. A bulk plant is where local propane dealers fill their small tank trucks.

People who use very little propane-backyard barbecue cooks, for example--must bring their propane cylinders to the dealer to be filled.

3. How Propane Is Used

Propane is used by homes, farms, business, and industry-and mostly for heating.

Homes. Propane is used mostly by homes in rural areas that do not have natural gas service. Propane appliances include ranges, ovens, space heaters, furnaces, water heaters, clothes dryers, and air conditioners. Millions of backyard cooks use gas (that's propane gas) grills for cooking. And recreational vehicles (RV's) usually have propane-fueled appliances, giving them a portable source of energy for cooking, hot water, and refrigeration.

Farms. Half of America's farms use propane to meet their energy needs, too. Farmers use propane to dry crops, brood chickens, power tractors, and warm greenhouses.

Business. Business and commercial establishments--from grocery stores to laundromats--use propane for heating and cooking.

Industry. Certain industries find propane well-suited to their special needs. Metal workers use small propane tanks to fuel their cutting torches and other equipment. Portable propane heaters give construction and road workers warmth in cold weather. Propane heaters at construction sites are used to dry concrete, plaster, and fuel pitch. Propane also heats asphalt for highway construction and repairs. And because propane is a very low-pollution fuel, fork-lift trucks powered by propane can operate safely inside factories and warehouses.

The United States uses more propane gas than any other country in the world. Propane supplies one percent of our total energy needs and ranks as the seventh most important source of energy in the country today, just after hydroelectric power and biomass.

Nearly 90 percent of the propane used in this country is produced in the United States. The other 10 percent is imported from Canada, Venezuela, and Middle Eastern countries.

4. Propane--A Transportation Fuel Too

Did you know that propane has been used as a transportation fuel for more than half a century? Taxicab companies, government agencies, and school districts often use propane, instead of gasoline, to fuel their fleets of vehicles. Today about six percent of propane's use is for transportation.

There are some interesting characteristics about propane that make it an ideal engine fuel. First, propane is clean-burning, much more so than gasoline. Propane leaves no lead, varnish, or carbon deposits that cause the premature wearing of pistons, rings, valves, and spark plugs. The engine stays clean, free of carbon and sludge. This means less maintenance and an extended engine life.

Also, propane is all fuel. It doesn't require additives usually blended into some grades of gasoline. Even without additive boosters, propane's octane rating of 110 is equal to and, in most cases, higher than available gasoline.

Propane-fueled engines produce less air pollution than gasoline engines. Carbon monoxide emissions from engines using propane are 50 percent to 92 percent lower than emissions from gasoline-fueled engines. Hydrocarbon emissions are 30 percent to 62 percent lower.

So why isn't propane used as a transportation fuel more often? For one reason, it's not as conveniently available as gasoline. Second, an automobile engine has to be adjusted to use propane fuel, and the cost of converting an engine to use propane is often prohibitive. Third, there is a slight drop in miles per gallon when propane is used to fuel vehicles.

import power on · Aug 28, 2002

Excerpt from http://www.ccities.doe.gov/pdfs/Farrell_Propane.pdf

POSITIVE ASPECTS
OF USING PROPANE

Leaves no lead, varnish or carbon
deposits

Reduces friction and wear on
cylinders, pistons and rings

Is self-pressurized so no fuel pump
is necessary

Has an excellent safety record

Van · Aug 28, 2002

JayHäss said:
Oh yea and Van it *will* *not* help you more than race fuel in any real way you can measure. I promise you this, but I'll let time be the judge. I'm confident of that.

Yeah Jay, I kind of agree with that on the race fuel.
However, I do think it could be of "some" benefit to certain set-ups, especially on pump gas, when wisely used. The coolness of the propane would help delay the onset of detonation, letting you gain a little better a/f ratio, I think. That is where the S/G comes into play. I'm thinking that the difference in S/G of the propane is pushing you super rich all of a sudden, and that's not necessarily good.
If propane is used to cover up improper tuning, or makes it harder to determine, then that's not good either. Only so much timing is beneficial and only so much power is gonna be gotten from a specific A/F ratio, hehe. As you know, tuning is no joke.

That being said, my concern is that what we don't need is a thousand dsm newbies throwing their money away and blowing their shit-up. ie: A 14b can only make so much boost "reliably." Reliably is the key word here. Now throw in some propane, it prevents the knock because it's cold as ass, they turn up the boost quite a bit. Now the turbo is literally screaming, pushing out super heated air (which will weigh way less furthering the richer a/f ratio scenario,) the stock smic is way beyond cooling capacity. This is a problem waiting to happen... I've basically said this before and IPO twisted it around and avoided the real facts.

Propane injection, nor IPO's system, will be the cause, but will/may indirectly cause more problems and kind of hide them along the way.
The newbies or dsm'rs that are still learning should not think that propane is the end-all, nor be led to believe that via "high-pressure sales tactics" and "BS info" without any real facts to back it up.
But do notice that huge list of DISCLAIMERS that IPO wisely lists on the site.

IPO thinks he is "backed into a corner" when someone points out his own statements. I'm not attacking you IPO, I merely question your sales tactics and the way you avoid the real questions at times. Please go back thru this thread and answer all of my questions. If you don't know then just say so or at least acknowledge the question for the many potential customers that'll read this thread in the future so they can make a wise purchase decision.

You state and I quote, >"At this point we are tired of being pissed on so we really don't care. It won't hurt our numbers to piss off a few DSMtalk people."<

IMHO, You have sadly proven my point. With an exclamation mark, in public here, as to why you are really here at DSMtalk...

turboniam · Aug 28, 2002

Van said:
You state and I quote, >"At this point we are tired of being pissed on so we really don't care. It won't hurt our numbers to piss off a few DSMtalk people."<

IMHO, You have sadly proven my point. With an exclamation mark, in public here, as to why you are really here at DSMtalk...

That statement doesn't sit right with me either.

FYI, there is another Propane kit coming on the market and it will be available in 1-2 weeks. This kit has been in the works for roughly 6 months with several "beta" testers. From the information I have there has been extensive testing done on this kit.

There is no website with the info up about the kit yet, but they are taking pre-orders for it.

Just thought I would pass on the info.

JayHäss · Aug 28, 2002

Van said:
Yeah Jay, I kind of agree with that on the race fuel.
However, I do think it could be of "some" benefit to certain set-ups, especially on pump gas, when wisely used. The coolness of the propane would help delay the onset of detonation, letting you gain a little better a/f ratio, I think.

I agree it may have *some* benefits over straight race fuel...in my mind it then comes into play whether said benefits outweigh the cost, complexity, and/or risk involved.

For me a good 3d mappable water injection system like the ERL Aquamist works just as good if not better and water is free.

I made a LOT of power on a 9.5:1 non turbo engine pushing 24.5psi of boost with the ERL system. 450+hp worth. It was impressive what could be done with the water vs without.

Also, I don't think propane comes out of the jet as cold as one would think. It's not like N2o (Nitrous). Not even close. Yes it does have a cooling affect but it's not what you think.

The way propane curbs detonation is it has a very high flash point. More so than Methanol. It's very detonation tollerant which IS a good thing, but you can only bandaid an overworked turbo or heat soaked IC so much if you know what I mean.

As you know, tuning is no joke.

Amen to that!

That being said, my concern is that what we don't need is a thousand dsm newbies throwing their money away and blowing their shit-up. ie: A 14b can only make so much boost "reliably." Reliably is the key word here. Now throw in some propane, it prevents the knock because it's cold as ass, they turn up the boost quite a bit. Now the turbo is literally screaming, pushing out super heated air (which will weigh way less furthering the richer a/f ratio scenario,) the stock smic is way beyond cooling capacity. This is a problem waiting to happen... I've basically said this before and IPO twisted it around and avoided the real facts.

I don't think I can agree with this any more. That's my concern as well.

nor be led to believe that via "high-pressure sales tactics" and "BS info" without any real facts to back it up.

This is what caused me to speak up and out against his product. I don't like when someone is only out to make a buck and screw everything else...right or wrong.

Shady/high pressure sales makes me angry. I'm a small business owner (And I work full time too) who is very honest and when I see stuff like this, it just grates my nerves. It hurts all of us in the business community when people sleeze.

If you don't know then just say so or at least acknowledge the question for the many potential customers that'll read this thread in the future so they can make a wise purchase decision.

Bingo!

You state and I quote, >"At this point we are tired of being pissed on so we really don't care. It won't hurt our numbers to piss off a few DSMtalk people."<

IMHO, You have sadly proven my point. With an exclamation mark, in public here, as to why you are really here at DSMtalk...

It's sad. Really.

*sigh*...but at least we now know his motive is purely financial without any regard to integrity.

IPO: You copied and pasted a bunch of generic information any average "Joe" could pull from Yahoo or google. It's of VERY little relevance to this application.

You DID NOT however post any information in regards to high performance use like I did.

Nice try, but I think you've been "found out". How you handle it from here is up to you. You can be a stand up, honest individual or a snake oil salesman. Your call.

danl · Aug 28, 2002

Jay Haas, water injection kits use either distilled water (54 cents a gallon), windshield washer fluid (94 cents a gallon), or water/methanol mix (very $$$). Its not free. Tap water has to many minerals, and will clog the jets.

ONe thing you will notice when using water is, the longer your boosting session, the less the knock. If I start doing pulls my knock will be about 12 counts. After 3 or 4 pulls, I will get zero knock. This is due to the cooling of the intake manifold and cylinder head. After doing a quarter mile pull, your intake manifold will be cold to the touch, as if you are using nitrous.

Distilled water does not effect the a/f ratio. Alky based fuels, or even WW fluid will add a little fuel, but its not much (I can speak only for WW fluid).

I've noticed a distinct sound difference in my 14b at 17 psi compared to 13 psi. It squeals on the top end, as if I have a slipping belt. I'm sure compressor rpm's are over 200K, at least a flow map would suggest so at my flow levels and boost levels. It live expectency is going to be drastically reduced IMO.

I felt it necessary once again to clear up some misconceptions about WI that IPO instigated. Just because he could not get a aquamist sytem to work (their pumps are to small to flow sufficient levels of water on an application as his). He could not get water to work on his car while nobodys like me have, and I DIY. However, he is designing his own propane system.

Still, we have no corroberating data yet. I've gained 1.5 mph in the quarter in a fwd with traction issues with only a 1 psi increase in boost. No other changes, and all on a day that is 20 degrees hotter than the day I pulled a 99.08mph pass. FWIW, the 99.08 mph pass was made with 2 gallons of toulene.

import power on · Aug 28, 2002

Our system performs, all our customers agree, it's comes at a great price. It is a proven application that has been around for years. Like it or not Propane is here for the long haul. Don't take it from me. Matt at DR a very respected tuner sells a kit and swears by it. There is an expensive more tuneable kit from a buick guy coming out. Vipers use it and have for years.

The only place I have run into people who question that propane works at all is here. Since it is a known and proven fuel for Turbo Gas cars for years everyone else is on board. And not with just my kit as there are others.

The fact that it works is not a debate. The people here would like to feel like they have stumbled on something that is a proven secondary fuel that everyone else has used for years on every other platform and try to prove that it could not benefit them. As if DSMs are different.

Physics is Physics. A turbo car is a Turbo car. Propane works. Period.

Don't buy from me. I don't have a problem with that. There are others to choose from. But don't pass up the opurtunity. You will love the results. Don't trust me, that's fine, trust the known tuners. They love it to.

JayHäss · Aug 28, 2002

danl said:
Jay Haas, water injection kits use either distilled water (54 cents a gallon), windshield washer fluid (94 cents a gallon), or water/methanol mix (very $$$). Its not free. Tap water has to many minerals, and will clog the jets.

Not if you have a water filtration system at your house.

I have run straight tap through the car more than once (Like running out of the house to meet some guys at our local cruise scene and forgot to fill up the washer tank. lol ) with no ill effects but I agree filtered water is best.

WhoaTed · Aug 28, 2002

import power on, your propensity for sarcasm and your tactics, which include trying to shame DSMtalk.com members and/or staff members by stating another site has embraced your "presentation" and understands the concept, leave much to be desired from a vendor. Understanding the concept is not the issue, nor do the "laws of physics" come in to play here. The main issue really is not whether or not "propane works", the main issue is YOU. It's your unsubstantiated claims (regarding YOUR system, NOT regarding propane), your inconsistent information, your sales tactics, and your bad attitude

. If your retorts that you don't "need" DSMtalk.com and don't care about "pissing off" DSMtalk.com people are true, then save yourself the time and aggravation and go peddle your goods where more people will blindly buy whatever you or anyone pieces together. Members and staff here have been very patient with you, yet you resort to insults. Our members do not want nor deserve this. If you want to respond, and a moderator has not yet decided to ban your account, please, go ahead. As JayHass said, how you handle it from here is up to you.

import power on · Aug 28, 2002

WhoaTed said:
import power on, your propensity for sarcasm and your tactics, which include trying to shame DSMtalk.com members and/or staff members by stating another site has embraced your "presentation" and understands the concept, leave much to be desired from a vendor. Understanding the concept is not the issue, nor do the "laws of physics" come in to play here. The main issue really is not whether or not "propane works", the main issue is YOU. It's your unsubstantiated claims (regarding YOUR system, NOT regarding propane), your inconsistent information, your sales tactics, and your bad attitude . If your retorts that you don't "need" DSMtalk.com and don't care about "pissing off" DSMtalk.com people are true, then save yourself the time and aggravation and go peddle your goods where more people will blindly buy whatever you or anyone pieces together. Members and staff here have been very patient with you, yet you resort to insults. Our members do not want nor deserve this. If you want to respond, and a moderator has not yet decided to ban your account, please, go ahead. As JayHass said, how you handle it from here is up to you.

As mentioned in my previous post. Don't buy from me, but don't pass up the oppurtunity. I was sincere with that. I would like to see every one who can benefit getinto propane and if it is with another propane kit great, they are still benefiting. How is that bad?

So I even tell everyone to not miss out and buy from someone else so you can benefit and I still get flack?

Don't buy from me. I don't have a problem with that. There are others to choose from. But don't pass up the opurtunity. You will love the results. Don't trust me, that's fine, trust the known tuners. They love it to.

JayHäss · Aug 28, 2002

import power on said:
Our system performs, all our customers agree, it's comes at a great price.

Then SHOW US THE NUMBERS AND QUIT THE BULLSHIT!

It is a proven application that has been around for years.

No has said it doesn't work. What we are saying is it's no better than race fuel and/or water injection. People have to make their choices basd on that FACT, not from a high pressure sale tactic from someone downplaying everything except what he sells.

Vipers use it and have for years.

And I'll say it AGAIN since you didn't understand it the first time.

The Vipers use the Propane as FUEL FOR NITROUS APPLICATIONS because the lllllooooong runners in the V10 don't get along with atomized fuel. I watched a friends friend blow his intake off on the dyno from a nasty nitrous fart.

The only place I have run into people who question that propane works at all is here.

Again no on questioned that it would work. And I find that you lied yet again. You had controvery over on the 3si board. I read it with my own eyes.

Has it occured to you that DSM talk is not full of deer eyed rice boys who will believe everything you say with NO DATA to back it up? Maybe that's why you are having so much trouble here. Good.

Since it is a known and proven fuel for Turbo Gas cars for years everyone else is on board. And not with just my kit as there are others.

Show me who else is on board. What other car communities are using propane on a large scale like water injection and/or race fuel.

Don't just tell me, show me proof.

It's a niche product. Period.

Physics is Physics. A turbo car is a Turbo car. Propane works. Period.

Why don't you explain those physics then since you can't even talk about the very thing you are selling without regurgitating some generic info from google or yahoo.

At this point it's not about propane as much as it is about you trying to shag the DSM community.

import power on · Aug 28, 2002

What other cars?
It is currently and succesfully used on 300GTVR4's StealthTTs, Buick GNs, Ford SVOs, Toyota MR2 Turbo, Scylones, Typhoons, Pontiac Sc'd...

Those who do try it most are coming from water alky and find better results attaining a few more psi. These are not just higher psi masked with higher O2's. The GN guys know how to tune for power and would not just throw fuel in and loose power.

Race Fuel
We and others find it preforms about as well as 101 octane but of course much cheaper to run. Of course when you run out of race fuel your car stops running. If you tune for Propane and run out there could be trouble. Of course this would happen with a water alky system also.

Then SHOW US THE NUMBERS AND QUIT THE BULLSHIT!
What numbers are you looking for? I have no AWD Dyno. Everyone who installs it gets more psi less knock and resulting more useable power.

Again no on questioned that it would work. And I find that you lied yet again. You had controvery over on the 3si board. I read it with my own eyes.
Actually the controversy you will find there is from two people. Ekool who likes to stir shit up especially when it comes to someone threatening DR sales and Dansvr4. The only question on that entire thread was that they were under the impression that I copied DR and am selling a "COPY" of thier kit. Letting them build and test it then stealing the idea and selling it ourselves. If you knew DR's kit you would know our is in no way a copy. We use a regulator to get constant tank-line pressure no matter the tank temp, they do not, we have the lock solenoid at the tank for safetly porposes not allowing line pressure to build up during normal driving DR uses a Pressureized line with the solenoid at the motor like Nitrous. DR uses jest to adjust like Nitrous, we use a needle valve. We never saw a pic much less the kit itself to copy it. And lastly as everyone allready knows, Propane was around years before DR thought of it. Patented in 1982 actually.

Has it occured to you that DSM talk is not full of deer eyed rice boys who will believe everything you say with NO DATA to back it up? Maybe that's why you are having so much trouble here. Good.
I don't think the Tuners for BuickGNs and owners of such are "DEER EYED". THey realize the potential and are using it. You don't have to be deer eyed to understand the concept and see that others are getting great benefits from it.

Variable Propane Tested!

import power on

99GTsc

import power on

JayHäss

import power on

JayHäss

import power on

JayHäss

import power on

import power on

Van

turboniam

JayHäss

danl

import power on

JayHäss

WhoaTed

import power on

JayHäss

import power on

Top Contributors this Month

Recommended Communities