Import Power Online propane injection kit

greyforestgst · Jan 24, 2003

alright, here goes.

everything in, time for the preliminary run. 35*F ambient temperature. I cruise down to the exxon to fill up with 93 octane and to warm up the engine. first thing to check: does the system inject when the switch is off? turned tank valve open, then shut again. 70psi of propane read. drove around a bit, hit 10psi, then pulled over. 70psi reading on the gauge. nice. alright, lets see if this son of a bitch works. flip on my switch, hit 10psi of boost. *click*. my rev lights flicker, the solenoid opens. pull over. 20psi reading. works great so far. now for the real test. tank valve open, back up to 70psi.
as anxious as i am, i have to test without first. open stretch of road, propane off, boost set to 13lbs. rape the tires through first and second, gain traction in 3rd, shut her off. pretty damn fast in this cold ass weather. here goes nothin, propane on. first gear, stay under 10psi. second, under 10psi. third, holding at 3000rpm...drop the hammer. spoooollll...*click*PAPARAPAPAPPAAPAAHHGH. 2 1/2 turns open is a lot of propane. there had to be some rowdy lookin flames out back, but sadly no one was there to see them. alright, so a smaller shot eh? i'll give 1 1/2 turns this time. first gear, under 10psi. second, under 10psi. third, open it up...*click*. the engine hesitated, as if running rich at 4,000rpm. as the rpms climbed, this leveled out. boost creeping up now as usual, and this is about where my fun is killed by fuel cut. fuel cut...fuel cut? nope. 105 miles an hour at redline of 3rd gear. 18psi out of a big 16g, 35 degrees, stock fuel system. no cut! wee!!
ok, what the hell, fourth. boost cut promptly pushed me into my seatbelt, and i decided to give it up for a while.

more tuning later. i have to give it a pretty mild amount, because i dont have anything to make the engine stop throwing in as much fuel.

import power on · Jan 24, 2003

Sounds Sweet!

95GST · Jan 25, 2003

Sounds like you may want to get your boost control figured out first. Because you're adding a constant amount of fuel (propane), you're only way to change mixture is changing with boost.

Not having any AFC or similar device makes this even harder to tune.

You may want to trigger the injection point to a higher PSI so it will not sputter before boost creep at higher RPMS.

BTW I got my tank filled today, he charged me 1.5 gallons, total was about $3.50. If really works as well as advertised, I'll be real happy.

Also, I found that on the 2G there are two big rubber circular plugs on the bottom of the spare tire space, I just pried one of them out and ran the vent tube down there..

greyforestgst · Jan 25, 2003

95GST said:
Sounds like you may want to get your boost control figured out first. Because you're adding a constant amount of fuel (propane), you're only way to change mixture is changing with boost.

Not having any AFC or similar device makes this even harder to tune.

You may want to trigger the injection point to a higher PSI so it will not sputter before boost creep at higher RPMS.

BTW I got my tank filled today, he charged me 1.5 gallons, total was about $3.50. If really works as well as advertised, I'll be real happy.

Also, I found that on the 2G there are two big rubber circular plugs on the bottom of the spare tire space, I just pried one of them out and ran the vent tube down there..

yeah those are the drain plugs
i thought about running them there, but you have to cut through the trunk board and use a lil more line.
those are permanently open on mine, so i dont get the swimming pool trunk

id like to get the boost issue figured out. id also like dsmlink...then again im kinda low on fundage. maybe in a while.

ill get the best i can outta what i have. 13.5...wish me luck.

joereitman · Jan 25, 2003

FWIW, here is some technical discussion for anyone who might still be interested in such...

"When comparing automotive fuels, this link rules:
http://www.afdc.doe.gov/pdfs/fueltable.pdf

Remember you only get the full effects of the latent heat of vaporization if you actually get 100% vaporization. With propane, you are pretty assured of that. With methanol, not really, especially when you start using alot.

When you have a Supra with a big FMIC, your intercooler out temps are only 10-20 degrees above ambient anyway. As a absolute alcohol cools much better, but in practice it's about even (if LIQUID propane is injected). If gaseous propane is used, I'm sorry but there isn't a major temp drop. At least mathematically there is no reason for one. I leave it up to someone else to determine this in a test, but chemistry and thermodynamics don't lie.

Another issue with alcohol is the fact you are depending on a pump, where propane pumps itself from it's own vapor pressure. With a pump you have to wait a brief moment from power on to spray time, and with methanol, constant worry of breakage due to corrosion.

Propane vs. alcohol (methanol) is a pretty close race.

Propane is much easier to put together as a kit, involving far less parts, less cost, and much less chance of a failure. It's cheap, and can be purchased at almost any gas station.

Alcohol, once you get it up and running and have plenty to pour in, is slightly better. Cools better, yields more horsepower (not much, but some), and cleans your engine internals spotless after a few thousand miles.

For anyone but the die hards I'd say propane is a better choice."

More from the same guy-

"Octane, (R+M)/2
Propane: 104
Methanol: 100

Propane wins slightly.

However that stuff about -40deg is a bunch of advertising indulging. If you inject propane as a gas (as the kits do), you will get almost no cooling to your intake temp. Just the slight temp drop created by a expanding gas, not much. The actual boiling process has already occured back in the tank. The tank is gonna get cold, not the intake air.

Methanol comes out a liquid, and some indefinite amount will vaporize, absorbing LOTS of heat (gasoline) as it does so. The figures for latent heat of vaporization (a scale of how much heat a substance absorbs as it changes states), confirm this. Water is better still, but doesn't want to vaporize much. Methanol vaporizes MUCH better than water, which is why in practice it works better.

To compare detonation limits of propane vs. methanol (IE: max boost with pump gas as main fuel), they are about the same in effect. Never really been compared back to back as far as I know, but it seems equivalent.

Another little tidbit of fuel comparison, take a look at the charts of the makeup of the fuels in terms of Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen. Notice something? Methanol is 49% oxygen!!! No it doesn't all burn, but some does. As a a pure fuel, a engine seems to be capable of making 5%-10% more power on methanol (when properly tuned) than gasoline for this very reason. For propane, it's about -5% from gasoline. When using methanol or propane as a secondary fuel (10%-30% of total fueling), those total HP figures change to only a 1/10-3/10 of a difference."

So is your insomnia cured yet?

Joe

95GST · Jan 27, 2003

I've got a brain teaser for you guys, and maybe Joe you can help me think about this too

I have installed my kit, and the nozzle is after the intercooler but BEFORE the BOV. The BOV vents back into the turbo snorkel like stock, not to atmoshphere. So the nozzle, about below the air filter, pretty far from the TB.

Now the problem is after I shift, I run rich and the car hesistates for about a second.. Fairly repeatable. And I see a O2 voltage increase after I shift in the logs. Altho this is from granny shifting but this was never an issue with regular gasoline.

I believe what happens is the propane in the pipes vents back (via BOV) to the turbo, and as soon as I get on it after shifting, I have too much fuel from the newly injected + recirculated gas.

I am thinking if I move the nozzle to AFTER the BOV and between the TB. This issue will pretty much go away?

The reasoning is I have less pipe volume filled with propane after I shift, and therefore also less to vent back. Also, air after the BOV may not completely go out the BOV, some may disappear via the TB passages. which will help my scenario, what do you think?

joereitman · Jan 28, 2003

Jeremy- I agree completely with your analysis about cause of your problem. Have you considered a 2nd solenoid, wired to the Hobbs, located at the point of injection? This should immediately cut off propane flow instead of purging of the complete line even after boost has dropped below the Hobbs' actuation point.

I have a solenoid at the point of injection and have never experienced what you describe. Then again, I inject preturbo, so I don't have a big "shot" of propane just before the BOV.

I do like your concept of injecting a little earlier than the TB elbow- this extra flow length/time before the TB gives the propane more time to mix well with the air, which is important because the effectiveness of propane appears to be due to its creation of more combustion chamber turbulence and hence more evenly distributed a/f ratio just prior to combustion. You could get even more of this mixing effect with injection in the LICP. Hint, hint.

Regarding your granny shifting- its a DSM man!!! Don't lift to shift!!!

J/K. I think the solenoid is the better solution than a TMO stage III and a tranny with a short life expectancy.

BTW, besides the richness upon shifting, how is it working for you? So have you hit 25 psi yet?

Joe

ps- 24.5/8-13 M/T slicks are here, 13x8 custom one off racing wheels will arrive next week, then the real propane/ no propane track testing fun begins. JR

95GST · Jan 28, 2003

Hi.. I have the JayC kit, I must say it is very well built, I loved that I didn't have to get out of the car to switch the trigger point and amount of propane, which saved alot of time.

I'd say I have some decent results, recently it seems they make the 91 octane even worse by putting oxygenates for winter. I was having some knock counts at 11 PSI on my 20G. Nasty.

I tried running 11 PSI and triggering the propane and it was sputtering bad.. So unburnt I can smell some of it. Not good.

I upped to boost to 14 PSI.. Varying propane and gasoline using DSMLINK. I was able to take out 8% of fuel in the higher RPM ranges and still run richer than before. The EGT is like 800 nice and safe, O2 is higher than gasoline At one point I had just about no knock, which I've never been able to do before, smooth power to redline because no timing is pulled. I upped the boost to 17 PSI and the knock didn't increase much.

However I am still trying to get it to run consistently without knock. Right now I have a pressure problem, my car seemed to run best 90-100 PSI but at night when it's cold I only got 80 PSI. I havn't played with the regulator yet so it's pretty much @ bypass. A bottle warmer would be nice to have.

Oh, I'm also keeping the water injection ON, it works fine together and seems to add endurance to resist knock during repeated runs.

Some interesting facts to confirm is that I have a temp probe a couple inches behind the nozzle and I do not see any drop at all. However the probe is sort of slow, but I just believe the propane comes out at close to ambient.

The other fact is at 17 PSI I'm not spinning tires like I would have if I have half mix of 100 octane gasoline. It may be because I'm running unreasonably rich But I believe it maybe that the BTU of propane is less than gasoline, still, upping the boost a couple PSI would fix it right up if the knock is within limits.

I'm looking forward to move the nozzle, right now so much propane move through the BOV, sometimes I can smell it when I shift and some of it must have blow through the air filter. I checked with the GN guys and they don't even have a BOV in stock form

So far I have increased 6 PSI of boost with similar or less amount of knock than before. I think that's quite a difference, I just have a lot of tuning to do though. There is some room to grow after I get the pressure issue taken care of. 25 PSI might be possible with a 16G but with a 20G I'd be happy around 17-20PSI

joereitman · Jan 28, 2003

Great report Jeremy- I have a couple questions and comments, will post tonite as time allows.

Joe

95GST · Jan 28, 2003

I changed my plugs.

I also realized my boost signal was tapped to a port on the TB that is outside the TB (no vacuum). That could explain the slower cut off. I moved it to a nipple that is inside the intake manifold with vacuum.

And the hesitation during shifting is gone, now it's just a little buck when I shift. It could be the new plugs, but I doubted it. BIG improvement!

95GST · Jan 28, 2003

Joe, I also need some info on a safty pre-solenoid that would eliminate the needs for a bottle opener. I think we talked about this before.

Could you email me privately please.

greyforestgst · Jan 28, 2003

i just leave mine open all the time

my regulator is set relatively low (55psi) and my needle valve is turned up a little to compensate

no leaks and the pressure never varies. dont notice much of a difference from 80psi either - still almost instant injection. im spraying at 12psi right now.

95GST · Jan 29, 2003

Update:
I kind of figured out how the regulator works, since my bottle pressure is lowest at 80 PSI, I am trying to regulate it to 80 PSI. So hopefully when it's hot in the afternoon I won't run super rich due to higher bottle pressure.

Just a note that 80 PSI and 100 PSI is a huge difference in amount of fuel. It can cause bad sputtering.

Propane + WI today:
It turns out my water injection WAS NOT ON because I knocked a wire loose. I have repaired it and this time I'm injecting both propane and water for real. It does have a cumulative effect together with propane. Where propane didn't do the trick to bring that a random knock event down, with the water the knock (or lack of) is much more consistent during a single WOT duration and between WOT sessions.

Also, I could not turn on propane too early, it will hinder spool up due to extra rich condiiton and low airflow. The result is I had a spike of knock when I floor it and waiting for propane to kick in. Now with water injection that comes on as low as 7 PSI, the knock spike is minimized. The water is not a fuel and it is not noticable.

joereitman · Jan 29, 2003

95GST said:
Propane + WI today:
It turns out my water injection WAS NOT ON because I knocked a wire loose. I have repaired it and this time I'm injecting both propane and water for real. It does have a cumulative effect together with propane. Where propane didn't do the trick to bring that a random knock event down, with the water the knock (or lack of) is much more consistent during a single WOT duration and between WOT sessions.

Also, I could not turn on propane too early, it will hinder spool up due to extra rich condiiton and low airflow. The result is I had a spike of knock when I floor it and waiting for propane to kick in. Now with water injection that comes on as low as 7 PSI, the knock spike is minimized. The water is not a fuel and it is not noticable.

Glad to hear they work well together- I also sometimes get a mild knock onset as the propane "catches up" with the Hobbs switch signal. I have changed the psi at which the solenoid opens so it is early enough to stave off knock, but not so early that richness is a problem. The WI sounds like the best solution, particularly since I have a modded factory smic that likes to heat soak- I will inject water in LICP.

Now that you are getting tuned, is performance getting closer to a race fuel mix?

Thanks

Joe

95GST · Jan 29, 2003

joereitman said:
Now that you are getting tuned, is performance getting closer to a race fuel mix?

I believe I've got it tuned fairly well for 16 PSI this morning. The EGT is around mid to high 800C, however there is no knock, definitely feels incredible. I am running retarded timing 2 degrees from stock for better safety, and I may add it back in the RPM ranges that I found fairly "knock proof".

Now, this was with the same tank of crappy 91 octane gas that I couldn't run 11 PSI in 3rd gear without 9-12 knock count.. I have upped the boost 5 PSI and is knock free, thus more timing, and leaning out an extra -8%. I was amazed by the power this morning after the WI worked again. Once they get rid of this winter gas I will have better results.

I can turn up the boost but when I do that I need to find the correct mixture of air/gasoline/propane/water again before it makes good power. I still try to get as much gasoline in the mixture as possible because the BTU is simply higher.

I have mixed 91 with 100 only once before and it felt similar, but it wasn't as knock free as this.

joereitman · Jan 30, 2003

Jeremy- What is your no knock timing at WOT with the 2 degree retard? About 19?

You may recall Vern made an interesting statement recently that his highest trap speeeds (and presumably hp) were when timing and knock were roughly equivalent at the top of 3rd gear. I think he meant knock and timing in the 15-16 range if his car responds to knock the same as mine. Apparentlly he found 20* or so too far advanced for optimal hp. Hopefully he is subscribed to this thread and will chime in so we can see if no knock is the goal, or if we should shoot for around 7 counts in the middle of third and 10-15 at the top of 3rd. How is your car pulling at the no knock settings?

Your 5-6 psi gain seems to be similar to what everyone is experiencing, with 1 important difference- WI. The conventional wisdom is that adding propane to WI (or vv) would yield diminishing returns, but your results suggest otherwise. This encourages me to move foward with alky and/or water pre intercooler to address my heat soak

issues.

So you have leaned out 8%, or 8% plus some previous leanout? I see why you are concerned with the lower energy content of propane when injecting that much. Yes, you can run more boost, but as Jay Carter has said, more boost is not always more hp. It sounds like your tuning has brought you to a happy medium.

As you note, your bad gas is crippling you- have you considered some toluene or xylene, maybe a gallon per tank, just to see how much impact it would have?

Bearing in mind the limited importance of O2 readings, I am still curious as to your O2's before and after propane. You said at one point you were unreasonably rich, but I presume the -8% tuned that out.

Your temp probe confirms my "experiment" from last month, and refutes the claims still being made that the propane exits the bottle at -40*. That is just not realistic in a vapor draw system. The benefits are from more even combustion, with diminished hot spots due to a more homogenous mix, plus maybe some minor octane affect, IMHO.

Thanks again for the good report

.

Also, sorry I have not been able to find much on the QCC safety valve- I will keep checking.

Thanks

Joe

95GST · Jan 30, 2003

Remember mine is a 2G so it runs lower timing and higher compression. I think the max timing close to 7k is 14-16 degrees. depending on airflow, (sometimes boost creeps after 6k and cause less timing). The DSMLINK does not artifically award better timing like if you had an AFC, BTW. Timing flatlined after 6k for some reason and I think I can add 1-2 degrees back.

I think there is more room to go.. Just havn't got there yet. The lowest temp of the day yields 80 PSI tank pressure pretty much limits me to regulate it @ 80 PSI max.

Don't get me wrong the water is probably reaching diminishing returns. It only bring down knock anywhere from 0-2 degrees for me in the past anyway, it was never a big improvement by itself.

I used to add 3-4% more fuel for WOT, now I back those off and subtracted 3-5% instead, thus -8% less fuel than before propane injection.

Yes the gas is bad this time of the year, basically the better gas you start with, the better octane in the end results, I can understand why you get improvement with xylene, as long as your gasoline isn't pure C16

. But I don't really want to deal with xylene and toulene, I can never pour fuel into my car without getting on the paint

The O2 since propane injection has been 0.96, 0.98, or 1.00 <-sometimes when the sensor is not hot enough. It was 0.92-0.94 before. I leaned out 8% because I can feel the engine bogged down with fuel, sometimes even miss, pretty easy to detect. O2 didn't change much tho.

I havn't looked at my temp probe much.. but it sure didn't drop right away, if the -40* or -60* claim was true I would be shooting ice pallets into my cylinders

One BIG reason I don't want to take out too much fuel is because the ECU controls fuel according to boost and weather, but it sure doesn't know about the propane. So it wouldn't make sense for me to lean out the fuel by 25% and fill up the rest with propane.

P.S. I decided on a mechanical opener for the future instead of a solenoid, since propane does contain some debris sometimes, a solenoid might not seal 100% for life. But If you found sort of auto off device let me know anyway.

import power on · Feb 3, 2003

For those afraid of that BIG propane tank in your hatch/trunk...

We have been secretly testing a safer alternitive.

After much testing, runs, logs we have concluded this new safer system WORKS.

What is the new system? Same Kit but uses the small 16 oz disposable propane tanks most often used for camping. You can find them at any Target in 4 packs. They are inexpensive. Don't need to find a propane fill station on a sunday night. Just grab one of your spares or find a Target or WalMart.

Great news for those who do not want to install Inside the car. These are small enough to mount outside. With optional propane ext hose you can mount the small tank away from the Regulator-solenoid system which would be mounted inside the vehicle.

From testing it looks like the tanks don't hold as much pressure as larger tanks. While not flowing they easily regulate to well over 100psi but when flowing they drop more than a larger tank. To compensate I opened the needle valve more.

Just wanted to bring up the good news since lots of people are worried about installing a large tank in thier car and with good reason.

eyebrowski · Feb 4, 2003

sounds great, i know this has been a complaint by many...

does anyone know if there is an adapter to go from the big tank threads to the small camp size tank? i dont want to run a large tank at the track....

16g-95GSX · Feb 4, 2003

I have always thought that WI and Propane would work excellent together. Propane is a fuel enrichment method, where as WI is an air desifying method, both seem like the perfect match for each other. I'd like to see some times on these setups, but I know the tracks are all closed. 5-6psi sounds like a huge increase, but what are your pressures? 22psi? That doesnt seem that huge, and that would mean you were running 16-17previously which isnt anything too amazing

. Although 22 on 91octane with solid timing is sounding nice. Anyone out there have an actually large turbo they can test out? I dont know what turbo's the current guys have been using but I would think with something such as a green or an L2R with both WI and Propane the results on pump gas would just be unheard of (perhaps approaching 28-30psi on pump). Just curious.

Import Power Online propane injection kit

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