1st gen throttle body on a 2g. Worth it?

GotBoost90 · Mar 14, 2003

flubyux2 said:
truely a Newbie. I used to be a Newbie. and i listened to what these guys had to say, and took it w/ a grain of salt sometimes. If i didnt listen to them and wnated to do it my way, i would find out they were right, so there is no sense in arguing w/ them. I knew my place and i sure as hell didnt mouth off to any senior members w/ more experience than me.

Now i am one of those members, with more experience. so, Reckanize Foo.

If you plan on arguing anymore, Take the shit to PM or Email...dont fuckin argue. You can be civilized and stay here and talk, but not if you are gonna piss and moan and quibble w/ other members.

This right here is SOLID evidence of the benefits of swapping the 2G TB for the 1g TB. this is TRACK proven benefits. you cant deny this shit. the higher MPH indicates increase HP. incase you didnt know, MPH is directly related to level of Power: simple physics. the lower ET should emphasize the increse in power, how else was he able to run a faster trap speed, yet longer time? The time of a 1/4 mile pass is directly related to driver ability.

As far as PSI/CFM...its all relative. PSI does not direcly relate to Mass Air flow. Mass Air flow is what turbo compressor efficiency maps are rated by, Lbs/Min of air. the other thing thats measured is PR, pressure ratio, not PSI. PSI is lamens terms basically. my 14b at 2.0 PR flows 430 cfm, but a 20g at 2.0 PR flows 640 cfm, so PSI does NOT equal air flow.

and another thing, Flow and Force...thats all bullshit too. freakin simantics. <-- horseshit!

you said yourself that atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi (1.0 PR, or 1 Bar) and there is vaccum inside the engine manifold. You said that the air FLOWS in, not forced in..>BULLSHIT. the air IS forced in by atmospheric pressure. the weight of the atmosphere pushing down on the air is FORCING the air to move towards a lower pressure area in an attempt to occupy its space and equalize the pressure. Naturally aspirated motors are FORCED aspiration if you wanna get technical...Atmospherically Forced, that is. Dont even try to deny it. its called Physics. im right your wrong, dont argue.

And whats this shit??

so from what youre inferring is that the 2G has improved upon the flaws of the 1G and is just plain old Better all-around. HORSESHIT. Thats why the TB is smaller, the Turbo moves less air and is less efficient, there is a plastic blow off valve, and the crank walks out the side of the motor??? the cars are manufactured for the common joe, which means COMPROMISES between comfort, driveability and performance. They upped the compression, downsized the turbo, and had to increase the size of all the intake and exhaust componnents to make up for the LACK luster performance of the Turbo. The turbo was sized small to spool quickly to give good low and mid range...which is where the car is always operated during stop-and-go traffic. The american public doesnt give a shit about all out performance, they want something that will get up and go when the mash the gas. they dont want turbo lag...and the 2G compromises top end performance in an effort to improve low-end driveability. Smaller TB's improve low speed driveability but sacrifice top end power. same w/ small turbos...

Whats the deal with this?

Lemme break it down for ya...chump. you DO get more power out of an engine by increaseing the air and fuel entering the engine. You can only INCREASE the air/fuel mix going into the engine by allowing it to exit more quickly. thats why Headers and a big exhaust will typically improve power w/o any other mod. couple that w/ a K&N intake and hard pipe intake, youll get More power on top of that. the ECU will see the increase in air (i wont bother explaining how, cuz that gets rather lengthy) and well then increase the fuel. Back in the day, you had to Rejet your carb..the ECU takes care of that for us.

the Turbo system does NOT necessarily include Intercooler, piping, exhaust, etc... take for example, the 1986 Subaru XT turbo...that thing had ONLY a turbo, no intercooler, no IC pipes...so no, an intercooler does not dictate a turbo system. Many cars had turbos and no intercoolers. And Exhausts are AFTER thoughts, not engineered alongside the turbo engineering. As far as most companies are concerned, the Exhaust isjust a by product, and just basically retrofits piping and mufflers around the design of the car. the exhaust isnt designed before the car...

im done ranting for now...

First of all i was not talking to u and if u really wonna know who started talkin' shit go back and check all postings. I was just givin my opinion on this topic when this rude guy sarted call me names, so i'm sure ur reaction for that would be same as mine (talk shit back).
You are quoting somebody who was quoated by someone else on his 1/4 run I don't call that solid evidence. You have to know one thing, by slapping something larger in this case t/b on ur car by itself will not make any difference it might just make it worse. That's junkyard thinkin and u must be one of those down the street specialist who knows everything.
About absolute atmospheric pressure and vacuum inside of egine. I said it flows which means its not mechanically foced and u said its foreced by atmosphere, I don't see a difference since atmosphere is not mechanical device or pump and turbocharger is. And since u think naturally aspirated egines are Atmospherically Forced and that atmosphere is in another words is forcing air in egine u are forgeting that egine has to create low pressure or vacuum so the atmosphere can force air in and egine therefor has to do work to achieve this differenc in pressure making it not forced induction (mechanically).
Wake up my friend technology is future. 1st gen is OBD I and 2nd gen is OBD II car and if u ask anyone who knows anything about cars they will tell by going from one system to another is improvement not something that'll set us back. More on board dignostics so the egine will have better eyes if u will equals better performance. We all know about crankwalk, plastic bov, smaller turbo, compession up, samller turbo quicker spool up, etc. You don't have to list all these things to look smart.
Now guy said FLOWING more air/fuel will increase ur hp and torque and that's why responded the way i did since we are taking about FORCED INDUCTION here, so u jumped into conclusion right away without even reading the whole freaking thing. Wow and i really did not know they make cars without intercoolers. I hope u'll find a few spelling errors and let me know aiight. I'm out.

K_Mans_TSI · Mar 14, 2003

GotBoost90 said:
You are quoting somebody who was quoated by someone else on his 1/4 run I don't call that solid evidence. You have to know one thing, by slapping something larger in this case t/b on ur car by itself will not make any difference it might just make it worse. That's junkyard thinkin and u must be one of those down the street specialist who knows everything.

i didn't quote anyone, i ran those times...i have the 2nd slip to prove it the first one got thrown out because they thought it was a credit card reciept i'd show you that too, if you'd like to use the search button you may and you can find the original time slip there. i'm not quoting anything i'm the one who did it.

2nd you have no idea what you're talking about at all, and what does obdII vs obdI have to do with anything in this post at all. the throttle body is not connected up to any on board diagnostics which is exactly what they are, you can READ through odb you can't change anything, that's all within your computer anyway. OBDII just means you can read what the computer is doing it's not HOW the computer works.

the rest of your post is usless because we've already addressed it earlier in the post, tell you what....here, call this number: 562.777.1522, ask for Mike...you tell him what you just told us and see what he says, i'm sure he'd be delighted to tell you about turbo "flow" (to quote you)

GotBoost90 · Mar 14, 2003

GSXtsy said:
I don't understand what your point is here. Are you saying that our cars horsepower can't be improved any from the factory? The engineers don't just think power, or they wouldn't have given us all t-25s.
I kind of understand your point between N/T and foced induction cars, but I don't agree with you. Just because air is being forced in dosen't mean that you can't push MORE air in, more easily.
According you your logic, we could have 3mm TB's and have the same amout of power, because the turbo would still force air through the little ass hole.
I know for a fact a 1g TB on a 2g give more power because I have done it, have you? If not, why the hell are you arguing with everyone?

Fair enough man. See my point here is by just putting something larger on one end of egine will imporve ur output. And i'm all for impovement of torque and horsepower but u have to understand t/b by itself will not impove ur output it might make it worse. I have friend who has 2nd gen GST he did the same thing and he's DSM was runnig like crap. He's idle was jumping all over the place, he had fuel trim failuer DTC and all that good shit. I don't know if he has done something before swaping his larger t/b or what but it cause a lot of mess. This is just what i witnessed u don't have listen to me that's just my opinion.

K_Mans_TSI · Mar 14, 2003

sounds like his shaft seals were leaking, the throttle position sensor wasn't calibrated right and the BISS screw needed re-sealed.

GotBoost90 · Mar 14, 2003

K_Mans_TSI said:
i didn't quote anyone, i ran those times...i have the 2nd slip to prove it the first one got thrown out because they thought it was a credit card reciept i'd show you that too, if you'd like to use the search button you may and you can find the original time slip there. i'm not quoting anything i'm the one who did it.

2nd you have no idea what you're talking about at all, and what does odbII vs odbI have to do with anything in this post at all. the throttle body is not connected up to any on board diagnostics which is exactly what they are, you can READ through odb you can't change anything, that's all within your computer anyway. ODBII just means you can read what the computer is doing it's not HOW the computer works.

the rest of your post is usless because we've already addressed it earlier in the post, tell you what....here, call this number: 562. 777.1522, ask for Mike...you tell him what you just told us and see what he says, i'm sure he'd be delighted to tell you about turbo "flow" (to quote you)

You know what i'm just tired of u people. This is last time i will say this BY HAVING JUST BIGGER T/B WILL NOT IMPROVE UR ENGINES OUTPUT IF U PLAY WITH MORE THINGS TO WORK WITH THIS LARGER T/B THAN YES BUT AGAIN BY ITSELF I DON'T THINK SO.I'VE SEEN PEOPLE DO THIS AND IT'S NOT WORKIGN. THANK U MAN.

flubyux2 · Mar 14, 2003

Just cuz your frriend had a bad experience w/ a TB swap doesnt make it gospel.

there are plenty of things that could have gone wrong, or were just already wrong w/ the piece he used. that doesnt mean its a bad swap.

the only thing that a mismatched TB can do is ruin throttle response and part throttle driving.

when it is bigger, it presents less of a restriction to the air flowing into the engine, whether its forced in by turbo, blower, or nature.

Look jerkass, we are talking about what we know, and you are talking about what you "THINK".

You THINK that putting a bigger TB on a car will ruin it..you dont fuckin know. Why dont you come back when you have tried it first hand, and then we will all appologize and buy you a cookie. right guys?

Btw K Man, is that Mike Huml's Number? i havent heard from him in a while.

Anyways, bigger TB IS better, and WILL increase horsepower. Let me break it down to you so you can process the info, step by step.

Bigger Throttle body
allows in more Air with less restriction
Engine runs leaner
ECU sees leaner mix via O2 feedback
ECU compensates and adds more Fuel
Engine has more fuel to accompany the extra air going on.
More fuel + More air = More power.

You only need 3 things to make power: Fuel, Air, Spark. The more you have of each, the more power you get. Bigger Turbos can push more air, and have more HP potential. Bigger fuel injectors and fuel pumps push more fuel and give you higher HP potentials than stock equipment. Bigger spark is needed to ignite the denser fuel/air mix so the HP potential is higher than the stock equpment would have allowed.

You need to go back and read up on the fundamentals and basics of engine operations so you can figure out that more air and more fuel make more power.

GotBoost90 · Mar 14, 2003

flubyux2 said:
Just cuz your frriend had a bad experience w/ a TB swap doesnt make it gospel.

there are plenty of things that could have gone wrong, or were just already wrong w/ the piece he used. that doesnt mean its a bad swap.

the only thing that a mismatched TB can do is ruin throttle response and part throttle driving.

when it is bigger, it presents less of a restriction to the air flowing into the engine, whether its forced in by turbo, blower, or nature.

Look jerkass, we are talking about what we know, and you are talking about what you "THINK".

You THINK that putting a bigger TB on a car will ruin it..you dont fuckin know. Why dont you come back when you have tried it first hand, and then we will all appologize and buy you a cookie. right guys?

Btw K Man, is that Mike Huml's Number? i havent heard from him in a while.

Anyways, bigger TB IS better, and WILL increase horsepower. Let me break it down to you so you can process the info, step by step.

Bigger Throttle body
allows in more Air with less restriction
Engine runs leaner
ECU sees leaner mix via O2 feedback
ECU compensates and adds more Fuel
Engine has more fuel to accompany the extra air going on.
More fuel + More air = More power.

You only need 3 things to make power: Fuel, Air, Spark. The more you have of each, the more power you get. Bigger Turbos can push more air, and have more HP potential. Bigger fuel injectors and fuel pumps push more fuel and give you higher HP potentials than stock equipment. Bigger spark is needed to ignite the denser fuel/air mix so the HP potential is higher than the stock equpment would have allowed.

You need to go back and read up on the fundamentals and basics of engine operations so you can figure out that more air and more fuel make more power.

THIS GUY MUST HAVE INVENTED EGINES I THINK HE HAS FORMULA FOR GREATER HORSEPOWER AND TORQUE WAIT A MINUTE WE ALREADY KNOW ALL SHIT U SAID IS THAT ALL U GOT, GIVE US SOME MORE BASICS.

GotBoost90 · Mar 14, 2003

K_Mans_TSI said:
sounds like his shaft seals were leaking, the throttle position sensor wasn't calibrated right and the BISS screw needed re-sealed.

THE DEAL WITH HIS CAR WAS IDLE SREW. For these cars u have to do whole procedure when setting idle. Car has to be up to operating temperature than u have to shut it down ground ur ECU so u can run in base timing and then start the car and set up idle to 750 or so ( i 4got what's idle spec) by turing srew on top of t/b.

GotBoost90 · Mar 14, 2003

Hey flubyux2 one more thing when i work on a car i don't go by ur theory try it and see what wil heppen.

SpdKlzU · Mar 14, 2003

Mods, for god sake ban him or delete his posts. It's people like him that ruin this board. They have zero positive input and all they do is bitch and moan about how people don't like them.

If your pre-pubescent ass can't take a little constructive criticism by a few ONLINE people then you have some serious issues. Go hang out in the newbies forum, learn as much as you can, then come back here and apologise.

Okay, I'm done ranting

Thanks to all who actually contributed to this thread. I had been reading up on this mod for quite a while.

Unfortunately we have lost yet another thread due to some dumb schmuck that probably doesn't even have a DSM. There are a lot of really brilliant people on this board that know more about these cars than I will ever know. I try to learn FROM them and help out as best I can.

Maybe we need to employ DSMTalk virtual licenses on here

. Like you have to get reviewed after your first initial posts before you get your license... maybe a little elitist, but who the hell cares

K_Mans_TSI · Mar 14, 2003

flubyux2 said:
Btw K Man, is that Mike Huml's Number? i havent heard from him in a while.

lol no thats RRE's number

I haven't seen Mike Huml (talked to him on here) since he tuned my friends 2G at Keystone.

as far as the BISS being the only problem with him swapping the TB i think there was probably more to it than that...BISS only messes with idle, TPS being off can screw up your performance.

GotBoost90 · Mar 14, 2003

"If your pre-pubescent ass can't take a little constructive criticism by a few ONLINE people then you have some serious issues. Go hang out in the newbies forum, learn as much as you can, then come back here and apologise. "

I do welcome constructive criticism from u and everybody,but that's one thing but being rude is another. And next time when using words like pre-pubescent ass and construcitve criticism in same sentence check meaning of words "constructive criticism=criticism which provides positive advice for improvement".
I'm done with u too.

GotBoost90 · Mar 14, 2003

K_Mans_TSI said:
lol no thats RRE's number
I haven't seen Mike Huml (talked to him on here) since he tuned my friends 2G at Keystone.

as far as the BISS being the only problem with him swapping the TB i think there was probably more to it than that...BISS only messes with idle, TPS being off can screw up your performance.

BISS (is set when car comes of factory line and u should not try to adjust it) is calibrated with TPS, but idle srew is for idle control.

GotBoost90 · Mar 14, 2003

MaJiKTeRRoR said:
That is the most useful information you have stated on this message board. Don't tell people they don't know what they are talking about. Do some mods to you car then argue about increasing horsepower.

I guess the important thing is that u've removed ur BOV hose. Please don't make me start on this now.

SpdKlzU · Mar 14, 2003

Nuff said

GotBoost90 · Mar 14, 2003

you've gone through all that trouble for this. you make me laugh my ass of kid, good job

stanfosd · Mar 14, 2003

GotBoost90 said:
BISS (is set when car comes of factory line and u should not try to adjust it) is calibrated with TPS, but idle srew is for idle control.

I guess this means that you know what you are talking about.

(pssst, the biss is the idle screw)

K_Mans_TSI · Mar 14, 2003

technically there are 2 idle screws...one adjusts where the throttle body closes (that's the one that flew out of my car) and then the BISS which is something else entirely. the first one actually sets how far the throttle plate closes from the throttle cable, the BISS adjusts the idle without adjusting the throttle plate. and it doens't work with the TPS the other one does and messing with it doesn't cause any problems, if it's too high the TPS recognizes it as being open further and compensates with fuel (for fuel economy) if it's too low it's just reading it as 0 anyway. The main thing is that the TPS reads close to 100% at WOT (which sets the system into closed loop mode and compensates for fuel) so the car doesn't run too lean.

HarOomT · Mar 14, 2003

GotBoost90 said:
THIS GUY MUST HAVE INVENTED EGINES I THINK HE HAS FORMULA FOR GREATER HORSEPOWER AND TORQUE WAIT A MINUTE WE ALREADY KNOW ALL SHIT U SAID IS THAT ALL U GOT, GIVE US SOME MORE BASICS.

Someone stick a dick in this guys mouth and shut him up

stanfosd · Mar 14, 2003

K_Mans_TSI said:
technically there are 2 idle screws...one adjusts where the throttle body closes (that's the one that flew out of my car) and then the BISS which is something else entirely. the first one actually sets how far the throttle plate closes from the throttle cable, the BISS adjusts the idle without adjusting the throttle plate. and it doens't work with the TPS the other one does and messing with it doesn't cause any problems, if it's too high the TPS recognizes it as being open further and compensates with fuel (for fuel economy) if it's too low it's just reading it as 0 anyway. The main thing is that the TPS reads close to 100% at WOT (which sets the system into closed loop mode and compensates for fuel) so the car doesn't run too lean.

Yes, there are 2 screws, however...

BISS (is set when car comes of factory line and u should not try to adjust it) is calibrated with TPS, but idle srew is for idle control.

...is incorrect. The SAS is the screw that is set at the factory and is recommended that you do not mess with it. The BISS (base idle set screw) is the one that you use to adjust your idle.

1st gen throttle body on a 2g. Worth it?

GotBoost90

K_Mans_TSI

GotBoost90

K_Mans_TSI

GotBoost90

flubyux2

GotBoost90

GotBoost90

GotBoost90

SpdKlzU

K_Mans_TSI

GotBoost90

GotBoost90

GotBoost90

SpdKlzU

GotBoost90

stanfosd

K_Mans_TSI

HarOomT

stanfosd

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