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chilliwacko

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Hellooooo!
Apparantly there have been many debates about this, but I can't find any. If someone has the thread(s), posting them here would be great (I searched, but to no avail). Otherwise, let's discuss this :)

So I've heard that the small 16g not only spools faster, but produces more horsepower across the powerband than a big 16g. The faster spool seems obvious, but I haven't heard any explanations for the increased power. Anyone know if this is true? Any reasons/theories behind this?
 
Generally a larger turbo is more efficient at a higher CFM and starts to spin fast enough to boost at a higher engine rpm.

The actualy compressor wheels are probably spining about the same rate.

They are like two really complex fans connected via a shaft.


Bigger compressor "fans" move more air but takes more energy to move more air so you have to back it up with more tubine wheel or accept some lag. A bigger turbine wheel catches more exhaust using more of its energy to spin the compresor take more are heavier and it Really mismatched setups will surge, creep or spike all depending on what side is mismatched which way.

Another monkey wrench are turbine housing size and compressor housing size.

A big 16g would be more at home a higher RPM.

A small 16g to be more at a more midrange RPM. It would have less peak power but more power spread out across the rpm range.

Other factors determine exact flow and performance with turbo sizing.

Do a search on compressor maps. Get an exact map for the turbos you are comparing. There are links to some sites where they show how to draw demand lines for engine rpm. You should be able to see the differences in compressor flow vs engine demand. This will give you a good Idea of how it will behave on your motor. Be sure that you find out exactly what wheels and housings are being used.

You don't want the biggest one that it will spool damn everything else. Even on a drag only car. You want the one that can supply the right amount of air at the pressure you want it at witout heating it up too much. In a nut shell efficiency is the ability to compress air vs heating it up too much.

Some people think that just because a turbo can make more pressure than another at a given efficiency it makes more power. This is'nt true. Yes compressed air has more oxygen in it than non compressed air but if another turbos efficiency sweet spots are at a bit lower pressure ratio but stretched out wider laterally across the compressor map it's going to beat the other.

People seem to go to extremes. Like reving to 9k and only caring about peak hp. Someday I'll data log a run and show people just how little time on a drag run an engine spends right near the limiter. The area some people worry to much about.
If I make 30hp more between 4500 and 7000 than a peaky engine with 30 more hp between 7000 and 8000 I'll be faster and have fewer drivability issues.


We need something else to brag about like? A power band ratio or something. How many RPM's is the engines output with in 25% of its peak.

Match it for the type of competition or driving conditions it will face.

Pick the parts for how you use it.
 
WOW what a post, nice explaination. I agree about getting better HP at mid RPM than Upper RPM's, I hear my friend with there honda's saying I can rev min to 8500 rpms redlining it, and having them blow there motors more often than them winning a race.
 
This is from the NEDSM mailing list:

I thought you guys might be interested in some information I have
found about the differences in efficiency between small and large
16g's. I plotted 3 points for three different boost levels onto each
map, and found the efficiency for each point.

The three points:

410 cfm / 30 lb/min / 17 psi
450 cfm / 33 lb/min / 20 psi
520 cfm / 38 lb/min / 25 psi


For 17 psi, I found the small and large 16g's BOTH had efficencies of
69.5%.

For the 20 psi point, the small 16g showed 70.5%, and the big one
showed 70%.

For the 25 psi point, both compressors appeared to be operating at
66% efficiency.

As such, I feel like there is not much value in spending the extra
money on a "big" 16g. Since this evidence shows that,
mathematically, the wheels are very similar, and because there is not
statistical evidence (times, trap speeds, etc), I don't see a reason
not to get the small 16g.

Feel free to contribute anything you have!

Thanks to Kevin, Scott and Chris for helping me out with getting some
background numbers, particularily airflow, so that I could try to
make an accurate sketch of the conditions one of our cars would see.

....Kyle T.
93 TSi AWD "TURBO4"
 
MNGSX said:
A big 16g would be more at home a higher RPM.

A small 16g to be more at a more midrange RPM. It would have less peak power but more power spread out across the rpm range.
No.
Image

Image
 
Ok

I don't have all the different compressor maps. Which is why I tell people to look for them.

As far as mitsu turbos.

16g
18g
20g

Looking at the maps I'd skip over the "big" 16g and get a 18g if I wanted something bigger than a 16g.
 
I would just like tp point out that I have a big 16g and I would not call it an "upper rpm turbo" It has almost no lag and pulls hard from 3k (maybe evena bit lower) to the redline. I can build quite a lot of boost between 2000 and 3000 as well, more than enough for street driving.

I don't see any valid reason to get a smal 16g over a big 16g.
 
i dont know nothing about compressor maps, etc. i had a small 16g, ported by carpenter of okc, now deceased. i ran it for over a year on my galant. of course, it was a huge improvement over the stock 14b, which had 125k on it when i replaced it. then i bought a new big 16g, ported by tre, with the 34mm flapper. the change was huge. it felt like a 50hp increase, it boosted earlier, pulled harder, and the boost seemed to stay longer. i drove to my friends shop, dropped the small, installed the big, and drove home, no other changes, screaming all the way. however, i must also point out that the porting of tre is magnificent. everyone i showed it to was impressed. not only the turbine side, but also the inlet side. the small 16 was only ported on the turbine side, and not nearly as much.
 
Thank taboo for the compressor maps. There's nothing like a compressor map to show what each turbo can do.
I agree with the guy who sad something like,'peak hp matters less than how broad the powerband is' In contrast to that, the guy who posted the flow numbers at 17, 20 and 25 psi only looked at one point on each map that corresponded to about 6800 rpm. What about 4k, 5k, 6k, 7k rpm? I've looked at how the two turbos compare at various rpm points, and at various pressures. If anyone wants the raw number you'll have to ask, it's pretty dry technical stuff that I'd rather not dig up right now.
Generally, the small 16g works better up to 19 psi due to much better efficiency. At 20 - 23 psi both turbos come out about even. The small 16g still has slightly better efficiency, but the big 16g will be turning slower, so it regains some power that way. The big 16g will put out more power above 22 psi because it can push and maintain up to 26 psi where on the small 16g flow starts to fall off at 23 psi.
So the small 16 is a good choice for street use on pump gas. The big 16 works better as a quick spooling turbo that can also be used for drag racing on race gas.
 
DRW said:
The big 16g will put out more power above 22 psi because it can push and maintain up to 26 psi where on the small 16g flow starts to fall off at 23 psi.
The effiencys of both turbos fall on their faces at anything above 22 psi. If youre boosting your 16g to 22+ psi, you should get a 18G/20G. But thats my opinion.

If I had a choice between the big 16G and the small 16G, I would get the small... just look at the compressor charts.
 
Well I never said they would be efficient above 22 psi, it's just that the big 16g will have an easier time providing enough flow at that pressure. Neither is considered a "good" choice for a drag race setup.
 
Speaking from personal experience (I used to run both small and big 16Gs on the same car with the same exact setup a while back), the difference between those two turbos in question is really like splitting hair. Although the small 16G "might" possibly spool a bit faster, the spool-up time is affected by so many things (such as level of hacking the MAS, porting the turbo housing and exhaust manifold, compression of the engine, clipping the turbine wheel, A/F ratio and choice of O2 housing and the entire exhaust) that it's extremely - if not impossible - to compare the spool-up time of those two turbos in fair manner. Even if the small 16G may spool a bit faster than the big 16G on the same exact application, the difference won't certainly be in 100s of RPM but most likely only in one 100 RPM range. The top end pull and ability of the turbos to sustain a high level of boost is going to be affected in similar manner on two different applications as well.
When going from the small 16G to the big 16G without changing a thing, the first two gears and spool-up time seemed to be not just nearly, but 100% identical. The only slight difference I could really notice was the bit better top end pull of the big 16G in 3rd gear above 6K RPM at 20+ boost levels. The only real advantage of the big 16G seems to be its slightly better efficiency - which might possibly make some difference when combined with the stock SMIC (that will heatsoak during 3 hard runs anyway) but will most likely disapear with the use of FMIC. As a matter of fact, due to the high efficiency of today's FMICs, some slightly different efficiency levels of the turbos don't play any really cruscial role any longer. Sure, even so, less efficient turbo will produce more hot air when pushed out of its efficiency range - as we all have the tendency to do :D with our 14Bs and 16Gs. If one really considers also the huge differences in tuning, thermal and volumetric efficiencies of different setups and engines themselves, then comparing the small and big 16Gs is really pointless - since, as with every turbo, the final results will depend on way too many variables. We all have seen people with 20Gs and Greens barely breaking into 13's and - on the other hand - people with 14Bs knocking on the door of 11's, or people with 16Gs actually running high 11's.
In my opinion, 16G makes a great turbo for autocross and possibly also a rally car, but one seeking a true power with decent spool-up for lights-to-lights street confrontations, 20G is the way to go. Personally, I wouldn't even bother with anything in between - such as the 18G or 17 or 19C. If someone can't choose from three basic levels:
1) A bit more than stock (16G, T28) - upto 360HP,
2) As much as the stock block internals can handle (20G, Green, smaller T3/T4) - 400-450HP and
3) F*ck'em up (Red, L3R, larger T3/T4 or T-series) - 450HP+,
then he's in serious trouble... Just my 0.02. :)
 
Taboo said:
Speaking from personal experience (I used to run both small and big 16Gs on the same car with the same exact setup a while back), the difference between those two turbos in question is really like splitting hair. Although the small 16G "might" possibly spool a bit faster, the spool-up time is affected by so many things (such as level of hacking the MAS, porting the turbo housing and exhaust manifold, compression of the engine, clipping the turbine wheel, A/F ratio and choice of O2 housing and the entire exhaust) that it's extremely - if not impossible - to compare the spool-up time of those two turbos in fair manner. Even if the small 16G may spool a bit faster than the big 16G on the same exact application, the difference won't certainly be in 100s of RPM but most likely only in one 100 RPM range. The top end pull and ability of the turbos to sustain a high level of boost is going to be affected in similar manner on two different applications as well.
When going from the small 16G to the big 16G without changing a thing, the first two gears and spool-up time seemed to be not just nearly, but 100% identical. The only slight difference I could really notice was the bit better top end pull of the big 16G in 3rd gear above 6K RPM at 20+ boost levels. The only real advantage of the big 16G seems to be its slightly better efficiency - which might possibly make some difference when combined with the stock SMIC (that will heatsoak during 3 hard runs anyway) but will most likely disapear with the use of FMIC. As a matter of fact, due to the high efficiency of today's FMICs, some slightly different efficiency levels of the turbos don't play any really cruscial role any longer. Sure, even so, less efficient turbo will produce more hot air when pushed out of its efficiency range - as we all have the tendency to do :D with our 14Bs and 16Gs. If one really considers also the huge differences in tuning, thermal and volumetric efficiencies of different setups and engines themselves, then comparing the small and big 16Gs is really pointless - since, as with every turbo, the final results will depend on way too many variables. We all have seen people with 20Gs and Greens barely breaking into 13's and - on the other hand - people with 14Bs knocking on the door of 11's, or people with 16Gs actually running high 11's.
In my opinion, 16G makes a great turbo for autocross and possibly also a rally car, but one seeking a true power with decent spool-up for lights-to-lights street confrontations, 20G is the way to go. Personally, I wouldn't even bother with anything in between - such as the 18G or 17 or 19C. If someone can't choose from three basic levels:
1) A bit more than stock (16G, T28) - upto 360HP,
2) As much as the stock block internals can handle (20G, Green, smaller T3/T4) - 400-450HP and
3) F*ck'em up (Red, L3R, larger T3/T4 or T-series) - 450HP+,
then he's in serious trouble... Just my 0.02. :)
Well put! This should be posted in every "which turbo is better" thread.
 
Here here!

Very well put indeed. Too often do we see HUGE threads arguing over flow maps, efficiency's, what so-and-so is running, etc. etc. etc.

There are so many variables like you say and it really is the tuning that makes the package. Phil with his 14B powered rocket is proof that you don't need a monster turbo to make 12 second runs.

Thanks! Although of course I still don't know if I'm going to fork out the money for the L1R :p
 
Taboo said:
If someone can't choose from three basic levels:
1) A bit more than stock (16G, T28) - upto 360HP,
2) As much as the stock block internals can handle (20G, Green, smaller T3/T4) - 400-450HP and
3) F*ck'em up (Red, L3R, larger T3/T4 or T-series) - 450HP+,
then he's in serious trouble... Just my 0.02. :)
LMAO... funny because it's true. :D

My new turbo puts me solidly in range # 2 there...
 
Hehe, my "upgraded turbo" would be a zero on that list:

0) 2G guys that upgraded the T25 to a 14B and are damn happy with it!
1) A bit more than stock (16G, T28) - upto 360HP,
2) As much as the stock block internals can handle (20G, Green, smaller T3/T4) - 400-450HP and
3) F*ck'em up (Red, L3R, larger T3/T4 or T-series) - 450HP+,
then he's in serious trouble... Just my 0.02.

:D
 
in posrt #17 he mentions an L1R, what is that? thanks. although I have learned alot for this thread I still don't know for sur what to get. there seems a contradiction between actual users one says it was a huge difference going to big 16 and the other guy says it was hard to tell 'em apart?. OK
AND where there are list of size turbo correlated to horsepower I again don't know if 380hp is pretty much the max one can get on pump gas at about 18psi ( this is what I've been led to believe) then EVEN the big 16 would be insufficient RESPONCES ALL TOO WELCOME . and there is an agp turbo sposed to get 70 hp. more than a 16 ok ok ok top horsepower has just been said not a real world indictor.. there is about 300 dollars difference in big 16 and small that I understand just fine .:confused: :rolleyes:
 
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