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Why not a regular 20g?

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Strand

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Rather than post replies in several threads that are going right now I thought I'd just start my own. I could spend months trying to correct all the bad information flying around on this board.

I am just curious why everyone wants to try Franks, Mutts, and Super turbos?

Are you aware the Buschur Racing 20g that has been around for years has ran 10.7's? I have one in my car and it hits full boost (20-25) psi by 3400 rpm. It is an awesome turbo and plenty of people use them for autox and road racing. Mine actually boost faster than some 16g cars that I've driven and it also boost faster than a bone stock 1g w/14b.

I am not here just talking trash and theory like a lot of others. I have ran 11.4@122 mph on this turbo in a full weight 92 AWD. That was with stock cams, it should go 11.2 atleast with HKS cams now.. if I can keep a trans together.

The only hybrid turbos that I consider proven are the Forced Performance Green and Red turbos. They are good turbos. Robert really knows his shit. As far as the rest (besides going to a true garrett).. why bother?

I also read in another thread about some guy that just slapped on a big 16g and says it sucks. Why did you not do some research first? You must have fuel control and other mods for a 16g to do anything. My friend just ran 12.1@116 on a big 16g.. in a galant. I believe that is more mph than anyone has ran on a Mutt turbo so far, correct?

I ran 12.3@111 on a small 16g with stock intercooler, 2.5" exhaust and a VPC with stock injectors. It was not difficult.

I don't mean to offend anyone, I am just curious ;) I know why vendors come out with these turbos.. money. How could they compete with the old time vendors like RRE, Buschur and Extreme? Simple, create some new super franken mutt turbo and unleash a fury of marketing hype to sway the unknowing to buy it.

Let the flames begin..

Greg
http://www.geocities.com/launt1
 
#2 ·
How about this 20G

Do you think this 20g would be any good? Y or y not? Would it be good for the money? $1199.00

http://www.hrchahnracecraft.com/Super_Turbos/DSM_Super_20G/dsm_super_20g.html

My friend with a GVR-4 is thinking about it as a mod down the road. Ether that or a 19c or mabye a busher 20g depends on what is better. That will be detirmend when the money is present and ready to leave the pocket. Your opinon would be appreciated. Sorry about spelling I suck at it but who needs it if all your going to do is have fun with cars.
 
#3 ·
Sorry so long.....

Here's my 2 cents worth. I feel one reason why people are looking to the Mutt Line and the Super 20G (not the super 16G) is that they have internal wastegates...So for the price of the BR 20G and a wastegate they can get a bigger turbo. Thats why I feel the MUTT's have gained such a good following. The super 20G .....I have no idea really except for the internal WG and all the parts plus a 02 eliminator for less than a 20G and wastegate, but I just cant get on the 10cm exhaust housing bandwagon.... The G-Pumper ....Its big and cool plus Marco and those guys build some nice products plus people have bought frank turbos forever and the Mutt and G-pumper and FP turbos are actually Garrett compressor wheels in Garrett housings unlike the franks which are Garrett wheels in Mitsu housings. This is another reason I think people like these setups is because they've seen the franks do very well so it seems like these turbos should do even better now the the compressor is in the housing that garrett intended. Green and Red turbos..... what can I say ....Robert has the numbers and will tell you anything you want to know about the turbos and Customer service at all these shops is head and shoulders above service at Buschur and Extreme. RRE does have good customer service though. This is just my opinion. I'm not trying to start a flame or anything. What you say is very true about the regular 20G or especially the Buschur 20G, these turbos are tried and true and have put up the numbers.

Right now I think a lot of the problem people are having is that there are too many choices.....I'm trying to choose one right now and have no idea and my engine is almost finished, every day I lean more and more toward the garrett but somethings I read on here sway me back and forth. also I definately respect your opinion strand, especially after seeing what you guys have accomplished with you cars.

[Edited by Endless on 04-17-2001 at 08:59 PM]
 
#4 ·
I hit full boost by 3200rpm on the freeway. I wish I had a 15 degree clip instead of this 20, then it would be even better. I think everyone knows my opinions who has read things on here. I like the FP green a lot. I like Marco's G-pumpers more (more compressor and turbine trims to choose from). But you know what? My 20G was cheaper and will get the same times as them (well G-pumper 1-2). Although I do like the added options for turbines on both of those hybrids. I think I would probably get the FP green if I were doing it again.
As for the other stuper ultra mega dope combos out there, well there's a search button.
 
#5 ·
Re: Sorry so long.....

Endless said:
Mutt and G-pumper and FP turbos are actually Garrett compressor wheels in Garrett housings unlike the franks which are Garrett wheels in Mitsu housings. [Edited by Endless on 04-17-2001 at 08:59 PM]
Click to expand...
Actually the FPs use a TDO6 mits compressor housing, it is larger than the normal 20G housing and has a a/r on par with the garret housing. Just to be nit picky ;)
 
#6 ·
You're right.....

You're right about the mitsu housing...I was thinking faster than i could type so if forgot to split those two section well enough. Well Maybe we should all get TS04's that way we could have some mad lag but support 750 hp if we wanted. Plus it would be a pain to install.....things that are hard to install are like stickers.....difficulty = hp!!
 
#8 ·
Just from my own experience at looking for which turbo to buy, I dont want to be like everyone else, I want some edge that no one has used before, kind of like gambling, I could either hate this turbo, or REALLY REALLY love it. I liked the mutts due to their design. Very similar to the fp green in threory, but totally different paths. Any turbo that will flow 780 cfm's at 15psi while hitting max boost no matter what it is by 3200-3600 depending on tuning deserves a try. dsm-performance has the equipment that is really rare and any shop that will go out of its way for that kind of quality has some idea of what they are doing. I love hte buschur racing 20g, but maybe I am one of those persons who fell for the advertisement, the SUPER and yada yada...but Ill tell you in a few days how I like it...
 
#9 ·
If I ever decide to upgrade my small 16G, I'll probably just upgrade it to a regular old 7cm TD05-20G with a 15 degree clip(not even BR). And I'll get an external wastegate. In fact, I could probably just have my good ol small 16G (TRE ported) upgraded to the 20G. This is pretty close to what Leon Reitman is running in his 11.3@122 1G Talon.

I don't like the TD06 turbos since they aren't water cooled.

I don't like any of the other turbos because they aren't proven. I like SOME of their ideas. But until it is proven, I'm not going to gamble $1200 on it.

I have gambled before. I bought a T25/Super 60. I bought a TRE MASC. I liked the ideas of both of these. But both were not exactly the best choices.

Now I have a mainstream small TRE ported 16G and a Super AFC with 550s. They just work. Lots of people use them because they just work.

I'm through gambling now. People have already blazed the trails. All that matters is the time posted at the end of the track, not what turbo you used to get there.
 
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#10 ·
Just to defend the TDO6 turbos, I've been running an oil-only cooled Frank 3 that Robert built while he was still at Texas that probably has 80K miles on it now, and it works like a champ. I keep up with the oil changes, and it keeps working just fine. I was originally worried about how long it would last without water cooling, but it works very well.
As for the Mutt turbos, I just wish more people realized that the car ran quickly because he drove the piss out of it, not necessarily because the turbo was any good or not. That car was still quite a bit slower than Chris Tichy's small 16G car, which ran 11.58 @ 116 a WHILE ago.
 
#11 ·
Well put Greg...right on.

It's one of the main reasons for the new track times area in "racing"...I for one have seen things with a new clarity seeing them all together like that. The amount of cars going 12s on 14b's is just amazing...and to think of all the "big turbo" cars going 13s (yes, myself included).......
Seeing the times so far, just in one day of the thread being up, of the allmighty yet basic 20g is also just great...

I'm with a few guys on here, I was sold on cost ($750 for the whole kit), but who knows what the future will bring......

Great times BTW.

Jon
 
#12 ·
I'll tell you another thing about these newer turbos....I was thinking about it on the way home. People talk about proven this and proven that and I'd like to add one thing to that argument: The benefit to using a "proven" turbo is that you don't have to keep wondering if your turbo is the thing holding you back.
For example, when my car doesn't run right, or when my car only goes 13.2, I have to wonder: Is it the turbo? Is it tuning? Is it some other component? Is it a combination? Well, part of owning and modding a dsm is about figuring this stuff out, but I promise you I would love to have one less thing to wonder about....to not have to think "Is it my turbo?" would be great. I could devote my time to wondering about other things that I modified wrongly. :p

If I had a BR20g, or something that has been around the block so to say, I certainly wouldn't have to worry about the question, "is it my turbo holding me back?".

Just 2 more cents from a mutt owner...

J
 
#13 · (Edited)
Jon are you celebrating the 1 year anniversary of this thread? :D

I will join in. I have the infamous HRC S-20G (TDO6H20G-TDO5H10cm^2). When I bought this turbo, I bought it because it came as a full kit (along with tubular O2 housing) and because I got it for a really good deal (dumb reasons). Now I am stuck with it and I have to make do with it, and see if I can get some good numbers/performance out of it.

Believe me, I often wonder how my car would be running now if I would have gotten a proven turbo (Big16G, BR20G, etc.) I am getting decent performance with this turbo so far. I have a couple of known pre-turbo exhaust leaks and I reach 18psi by about 3700-3800RPM in 3rd gear, about 3200RPM in 5th gear. I have a few things holding me back from seeing the true performance of this turbo (Walbro255 with no AFPR, boost leaks, the aforementioned exhaust leaks, tuning w/o a logger). Believe me, these aren't excuses, I will be the first to bitch when I get everything running right and can't get good performance from this turbo. :D I will then probably start saving up again. :mad: :)
 
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#15 ·
dsm1995gst said:
Jon are you celebrating the 1 year anniversary of this thread? :D
Click to expand...

LMAO...haha ha I didn't even notice that! I was searching out some of the members with faster cars from the "times" thread and I must've just hit reply without looking at when the thread started.... kinda makes you realize how many times we talk about the same stuff over and over and over again.... :D

J
 
#16 · (Edited)
I know this is a year old and I hold Strand's posts and opinions in high regard, trust me, but I have an interesting point here...

The *best* 20G times up here, ever, in rare air are 12.0's, these were at 25 psi on race gas. I already knew what the best a 20G had done up here was. Those times have not been improved upon in years. Those times are in line with the altitude factored in. I wanted more than that.

I'm at 12.81 with a shitty 1.9 60ft on 91 octane pump gas. A better 60ft with more timing/less knock in third gear ought to give me a nice jump on those times, and that's on pump gas at full street weight.

I'm not gonna start talking shit now, but we'll know more soon, hehe. ;)

At the very least, IF I only equal those 20G times; THEN we'll all know that the L3 is indeed just like a 20G turbo. ;) That is the second reason that I went with an L3 turbo. Somebody has got to prove or disprove it, that isn't "owned" by the shop.
 
#18 ·
LOL! Soon Nick, but Dre would be good company. :p


I think something happened in Josh's life that basically demanded he part out and sell the car. He was still sitting on some of the very expensive stuff last I heard.

I never really heard anything locally about the car and usually that'll happen when it's fast. I do know that the 720 injectors he had, are a bad idea up here. Basically another mutt talker that hyped it up here and never backed up what he was hyping. Sorry Josh, but that's the way it is...
 
#19 ·
Van said:
LOL! Soon Nick, but Dre would be good company. :p


I think something happened in Josh's life that basically demanded he part out and sell the car. He was still sitting on some of the very expensive stuff last I heard.

I never really heard anything locally about the car and usually that'll happen when it's fast. I do know that the 720 injectors he had, are a bad idea up here. Basically another mutt talker that hyped it up here and never backed up what he was hyping. Sorry Josh, but that's the way it is...
Click to expand...
Yeah he uh didn't quite get the tuning bit down. I figured at some point he had to stop, I've NEVER known anyone that could honestly afford to throw parts at a car like that.
Too bad though, he seemed like a nice kid.
 
#20 ·
am i missing something?

people run high 12s in a 14b right?

other people run mid-low 12s in a 20g or L3 right?

20g's and L3s are pretty good sized turbos, and if they have only gotten to 12.0s....then how much more does it take to safely get into the 11s???


i thought if a 14b could take you all the way into the 12s, it just seems like a 20g (or similar sized turbo) should be able to carry you Beyond the 12s, w/o much effort...am i wrong in thinking this?

i ask, cuz i plan on buying my friends BR 20g w/ external WG, after he switches to a tubular manny and T3 super 60. i dont want to have to switch turbos AGAIN to break out of the 12s...ya know?

chris
 
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