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Is FWD worth modding? (Road course NOT drag racing)

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BigMass

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Here is the story. I have a nice condition 1990 Talon TSI. Talons are fairly scarce where I live so its not like I had the pick of the litter when I purchased it. Aside from the fact that it’s FWD it’s in great shape and really hauls ass. I already have a few mods into it like UICP, Full Thermal RD Exhaust and a few other things. I keep wanting to put more money into it for a 16g and manifold and a few others things but keep wondering if I am just dumping money when I should really look for an AWD and dump money into that.

The main question is that I do NOT drag race. I will be taking this car on the road course. Almost all the posts on other threads seem to be only taking into account drag racing. Drag this drag that, traction this, traction that, but when I am on the road course Its not like im dumping the clutch and drag racing. So if my only intention is to build a semi-fast track car (not drag), am I ok spending some cash on the FWD, or am I just wasting my money when I should really be looking for an AWD. Basically I am looking for FWD VS AWD on a road course. And if you suggest i keep the FWD what are some suggestions (sway bars) etc.

Thanks
 
#2 ·
RRE's road course car is fwd. Just spend some cash on a good front diff, and you'll have quite a bit of traction. Look into what classes either car would put you in, and who you'd be competing against, that may sway you more either way.
 
#3 ·
You can and will have alot of fun with a FWD. But, an awd car can do more ESPECIALLY in a road course environment.

I'll never forget taking my friend (with a built turbocharge Integra)through an curvy road full of extreme turns, scattered with patches of sand. After we were done he said, "My car is fast but it could never have done that." Given, his car was not modded for a road course..but neither was mine. Regardless, the difference in handling really impressed him.

There is no replacement for more traction.

But again, a properly set up FWD DSM with an LSD, etc. etc. can be very fast on a road course. If you already have the car, don't be afraid to mod it. Just my opinion.
 
#4 ·
I LOVE MY GS-T! When i bought my GS-T my buddy gave me a choice of the GSX and a GST and let me tell you i had so much fun with the GST i just had to have it. I know not to mess with a couple cars off the line but AWD get out of my way on the highway! It does take more work to get a gst in comprable times to an AWD but like i said i love my FWD.
 
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#5 ·
Stick with the FWD

I have a 90 FWD and a 92 AWD. I've driven both when stock and modified. I definately prefer the FWD on twisty roads, and here's why; the FWD weights about 275 pounds less in stock form. That's an advantage that pays off all the time; braking, turning and accellerating.

On a 16G equiped car with a LSD and sticky tires you won't have traction issues once you're out of first gear. The extra traction you get with AWD only helps in first gear. How often does your road course demand first gear? How much sand is there on the track? Plus the extra drivetrain efficiency of FWD means you're getting more power to the wheels. AWD has about an extra 10% drivetrain loss. On a 300 HP car, that's worth 30 HP.

The rear suspension on the FWD is less prone to understeer. The AWD has some funky automatic toe control link that makes the back end feel vaque and squishy in corners. It does help in bumpy corners, where the FWD rear suspension tends to skip out a little, and the AWD will stay planted. But when it's time to get the back end to rotate a little, the AWD still says planted. I found it much easier to do a 4 wheel drift in the FWD. With the AWD the front end just scrubs. I know the AWD suspension can be modded to make it corner correctly, but those same mods will take the FWD to a higher level.
Stick with the FWD
 
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#10 · (Edited)
Just curious....

I was watching speedvision a while back... and they were talking about the introduction of AWD vehicles into the racing scene in both rally (some time ago) and other track courses.... The all wheel cars when properly modded completely dominated. Yes you lose power, but you also can maintain alot more speed because of having the extra traction in the corners.

This might not be true for cars with few mods... but when the mods start kicking in and lots of power is being generated... all in all... the AWD vehicles really are in a different world. Properly modded and adjusted suspensions of course.

Mind you, if you lose control in an AWD car, you're SOL. :)
At least in my experience FWDs you just point and go... AWD... i've found very weird.. a cross between rwd and fwd at different times.... I've lost it a bit in the rain doing some stupid stunts.. and it takes alot to keep her under control beyond a certain point. At this point I try to treat it as RWD but stop correcting sooner. Where a FWD car will just slide and then keep going...(4 wheel drift sort of thing)

Just my two cents.... and yes.. fwd drive would be faster in the straights and such... Its all in the driver though when it comes to corners.
 
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#11 ·
Brett95GST said:
Just curious, what are you planning to do to it? I need some ideas if I'm going to keep my car for a little while.
Click to expand...

As far as suspention; I have upper strut bars, sway bars, rear lower brace, AGX Shocks, sprint racing springs, and camber correction.

Engine wise; Magnus Balanced Blueprinted block and head, 4" FP intake, FP big28 turbo, soon to be air-to-water intercooler, Greddy BOV (prob. swtich to Tial), polyurathane* engine mounts, 3" down pipe, 2.5" exaust, Cyclone intake manifold, and DSMlink..

My next two big mods are going to be a FP25_44 turbo and the air-to-water intercooler
 
#12 ·
Once upon a time I actually sent Mike W. at RRE an e mail asking about the FWD vs. AWD road racing issue. To briefly summarize, he told me that he preferred to run the FWD on the road course due to the lighter weight of that model vs. the AWD. He said that with a decent LSD the FWD will be the faster car in this type of environment.
 
#13 ·
You can do quite well with FWD on Road courses, but if you've seen what Audi and Subaru have done when the conditions get nasty out you'll think twice about not having a four wheels sharing the work.

From experience I ran my AWD 2G in the rain and found traction to be awesome. It really gives me tons of confidence whereas in a FWD or RWD car you're always going to have less.

Regardless, there is nothing wrong with using your FWD car for road racing.

Have fun!
 
#14 ·
Re: Stick with the FWD

DRW said:
I have a 90 FWD and a 92 AWD. I've driven both when stock and modified. I definately prefer the FWD on twisty roads, and here's why; the FWD weights about 275 pounds less in stock form. That's an advantage that pays off all the time; braking, turning and accellerating.

On a 16G equiped car with a LSD and sticky tires you won't have traction issues once you're out of first gear. The extra traction you get with AWD only helps in first gear. How often does your road course demand first gear? How much sand is there on the track? Plus the extra drivetrain efficiency of FWD means you're getting more power to the wheels. AWD has about an extra 10% drivetrain loss. On a 300 HP car, that's worth 30 HP.

The rear suspension on the FWD is less prone to understeer. The AWD has some funky automatic toe control link that makes the back end feel vaque and squishy in corners. It does help in bumpy corners, where the FWD rear suspension tends to skip out a little, and the AWD will stay planted. But when it's time to get the back end to rotate a little, the AWD still says planted. I found it much easier to do a 4 wheel drift in the FWD. With the AWD the front end just scrubs. I know the AWD suspension can be modded to make it corner correctly, but those same mods will take the FWD to a higher level.
Stick with the FWD
Click to expand...
Image
 
#15 ·
cbilmer said:
I was watching speedvision a while back... and they were talking about the introduction of AWD vehicles into the racing scene in both rally (some time ago) and other track courses.... The all wheel cars when properly modded completely dominated.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that was about the Audis in a LeMans series or something... basically the audis were AWD vs RWD bimmers etc. They kept winning, so the rules changed: smaller tires, more weight. They still kept winning so more weight was added... and so on.

AWD makes a difference in more than just 1st gear corners... especially at higher HP levels. With an AWD you are putting the power to the ground in at least 2 wheels (no LSDs) or at most 4 (Full LSDs). On a FWD, that power can only get to the ground through a max of 2 wheels, both of which are less loaded when accelerating out of a corner, be it 1st or 3rd gear.

No question, a FWD with a front LSD will be a fun car on a road course, and if planning on competition, I'd check the class and class restrictions before doing anything to the car. For just track days (what I'm building a car for), pretty much anything goes as long as it doesnt make the car unsafe. I'd check with the local track group to make sure they dont specifically require or disallow anything you might do.

The other thing, you might be keen to know. AWD compensates for a lot of driver mistakes. Being a good FWD/RWD driver takes more skill than an AWD driver. A FWD platform is a good safe way to start out, then move to RWD or AWD.

Mike
 
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