I think that the V6 is going to fall flat on it's face with the t25, most V6 guys that go turbo go big such as a 50 trim of some sort to push the car farther or even a 20G. I think he wasted his money on that turbo. Why did he go with it anyway, especially with built internals? What's his compression ratio? Hopefully he lowered them from 11.1 to at least 10.1 possibly, but that won't do him any good with that turbo.
I think you got him, just tune your car right to make sure.

Just remember that he has a smaller, lighter, ugly car...I mean car.

 

LOL, ya all of the DSM guys in our local club have benn telling him that. He's going with Pauter pistons and I beleive 0.040" overbore. I'm not sure exactly what ALL of his mods consist of, but the motor will be built.

He claims he wants to start off with the T-25 to help the car run better faster, then go to a bigger turbo.

The 2 other DSM guys in our local club think it'll be close. I just wanted some more DSM opinions.

 

a car that weighs that little, with a 2.5l V6 and a turbo. sure it's a baby penis t25, but it still has one.

if he tunes it properly, your only chance is in the top end or if he can't drive and tries to launch it hard. with that small of a turbo, it is going to spool in the low 1000's and burn the tires.


he's got a go cart, you have a gokart with a fat lady in it

 

LOL, ya all of the DSM guys in our local club have benn telling him that. He's going with Pauter pistons and I beleive 0.040" overbore. I'm not sure exactly what ALL of his mods consist of, but the motor will be built.

He claims he wants to start off with the T-25 to help the car run better faster, then go to a bigger turbo.

The 2 other DSM guys in our local club think it'll be close. I just wanted some more DSM opinions.

You should maul him badly...but I noticed you said you have .40 overbore but you didn't mention any piston upgrade. RATTLE RATTLE>..d

 

My budget was limited and so was time. I wasn't able to buy forged internals. I just purchased a Topline engine rebuild kit from SBR. Of course the 0.040" overbore kit.

 

I hope you really crush him for the guy being an idiot by running a little T-25. Most kits made for the Probe GT, Mazda 626 with the 2.5L V6 use the T3/T4 .50 trim. But I noticed he's running the KLZE and not the stock KL03, which is a hell of a lot better motor if it's a true ZE. 200 Crank HP on the ZE which are dyno'd around 180WHP compaired to the 164 crank HP of the KL03 which is around 144WHP. So with the addition of the T25.. even though how small it is, running 15psi, he's probably around 235WHP.
Generally most PGT's with the stock KL03 with a T3/T4 .50trim on only 7psi run mid 13's. So.. this guy is running forged internals, with only a T25?? Like it was stated up above, his car is going to run out of breath very quickly with that little pea shooter, and he should up-grade immediately with a .50 trim and put it to atleast 12-15 psi, just for a rough tune. If indeed he has "forged internals" but like it was also stated above, I hope for that engines sake he dropped the compression ratio down to around 9:1.
But anyways as for the race..
If your running with your set-up, and his current set-up.. you'll probably out run him in the top end.. but it'll be close. But it just depends on what he brings to the table..

 

It's a true KL-ZE. I'm actually good friends with him it's just a "shits-and-giggles " race. As for exactly all of his mods, Im' not sure, because it's been awhile since I've seen him.

He said with his T-25 setup he'll be running around 225-230 FWHP. I'm pushing 265-270 FWHP, but I'm also heavier. Myself and the two other DSM er's in our club have told him to go with a bigger turbo, but he won't listen...

His motor IS currently being built, and like previously stated, forged internals, and he'll be running a "megasquirt EMS".

 

NOTE: This will be my 1st organized race for the track come summertime. I havn't ran my car sicne the turbo motor swap...I'm anxious to see what it'll run.

 

He said with his T-25 setup he'll be running around 225-230 FWHP. I'm pushing 265-270 FWHP, but I'm also heavier.

You may be heavier, but you also have alot less rotating mass to wory about. Why do you think it's so easy for us to walk up and down all over v8s with double the power? Remember, in the long run, unsprung weight is what really matters.

 

You may be heavier, but you also have alot less rotating mass to wory about. Why do you think it's so easy for us to walk up and down all over v8s with double the power? Remember, in the long run, unsprung weight is what really matters.

explain your theory please

 

explain your theory please

Think about it. And this is real stuff too, I'm not just making this up. It's simple physics really. It takes more energy to make more mass move just as fast as less mass right? So, a rotating assembly that ways more is going to take longer to accelerate than a rotating assembly that weighs less. Therefore, since the MX6 has a bigger rotating assembly, he's going to take longer to accelerate, unless he's got, at my best guess, 1.5 times the power of his car. This physics is why we try so hard to develop lighter driveshafts and lighter turbines for our turbos.

Now, sprung weight will matter eventually, but only if you take off a few hundred pounds or so.

 

^^^^^What?

 

I'm lost aswell...

Any other opinions on the race?

 

Jdm klze motors are "rated" at 200 horse stock. I had a probe with the usdm 2.5 and pulled really hard for a n/a with just a few bolt ons.I had a lot of fun in my pgt. Actually thats the only other car i would want again over my dsm if i ever got rid of it.
But with your mod list, i don't think you will have a problem.

 

Jeez guys it's just simple physics. Let's put it this way: It takes more energy for you to push an 80 pound box than a 30 pound box right? Well it's the same for an engine, it takes more power to turn more crank, rods and pistons, and also more driveshaft and heavier c/v joints. That's why the FWD accelerate faster than AWD do because the FWD don't have as much drivetrain to go through before power is delivered to the ground. This simple idea is why we strive to use lighter materials to manufacture our rotating assemblies out of, such as the carbon fiber driveshaft in the RX-8. It's also a reason why turbos are so expensive. Those turbines that are in those housing aren't just straight steel. They're lightweight, really strong stuff, such as a polycarbonate material. Basically, the lighter something is, the easier it is to move it, and the easier it is to move something, the faster you can make it accelerate. Got it now?

Jason

 

Oh, I got it in your first post...Makes sense.

That's why this race will be interesting, because we're both FWD and turbo. We both face the challenge of traction. So it'll be a "driver-required" race.

 

But the thing is though, the guy he's running doesn't have an MX-6 chassis.. he has a MX-3, which is much smaller than the MX-6.
The MX-3 weighs 2443 and the MX-6 weighs 2804 lbs.

 

It's a true KL-ZE. I'm actually good friends with him it's just a "shits-and-giggles " race. As for exactly all of his mods, Im' not sure, because it's been awhile since I've seen him.

He said with his T-25 setup he'll be running around 225-230 FWHP. I'm pushing 265-270 FWHP, but I'm also heavier. Myself and the two other DSM er's in our club have told him to go with a bigger turbo, but he won't listen...

His motor IS currently being built, and like previously stated, forged internals, and he'll be running a "megasquirt EMS".

Did you get your car on a dyno?
Cause I'm trying to do the math here...
If you're not even running 14psi now...
Your running a 14b...
And you have 270 WHEEL HP?

Do the dyno's in Canada have a horse power exchange rate like the money?
Like I hand you 100 hp USD and you give me 130 Canadian?

Its not adding up to me.

Which makes me surmise you're getting owned.
Turn up the boost.
And then I'll agree.

 

If you are racing at the track it is a drivers race with the mazda with the edge for less weight. On the street the mazda might get you at the start but once you start hitting the higher speed you are going to walk him. The mazda could be made quick but they have no top speed. I believe the mazda weak link will be his tranny. So the key is how far are you guys racing and who is the better driver.

 

ok some thoughts...

Even if you made 265.
If a 200 horse ZE motor throws a buck eighty down w/o turbo, and he reworks the internals, and runs 15 psi...

Ok lets try the most archaic math known to man.

Say the ZE is 11-1 compression. Which could be wrong I dont know but I pulled it from above post.

math time.
200 crank hp /11 CR = 18.18 hp/compression point.
Say we go with boost friendly 8.5-1 CR setup instead.
Well we lose some hp
18.18 X 8.5 = 154.54hp now we lost some by lowering compression.
NOW... at sea level or 14.7psi ambient the car makes
154.54/14.7 = 10.51hp/psi
So now add 15 psi.
15x10.51= 157.69
Now there's going to be losses, and effieciencys to account for.
Lets go conservative.
125hp.
Now grab our n/a hp from above...
154.54 + our boost hp 125 = 279.54 hp.
Now, considering that was 200 crank we were working with we still have drive train losses.
BUT STILL.
500 lbs lighter on a skinny day for you...
boost being instantaneous... for him.
And atleast 240 whp.

And its crude crude numbers...
I don't know if a T-25 will push enough air to support that. But theoretically... you could be in doo doo.
Ok now bust out your thermo dynamics degrees I know you all have stashed in your pocket and pick it all apart...

 

I think he'll be fine. A little T-25 on that car just isn't going to push enough air through. And remember, unsprung weight!

 

I think he'll be fine. A little T-25 on that car just isn't going to push enough air through. And remember, unsprung weight!

Yo flyboy, pass that UNsprung blunt this way.....

 

I'm still trying to understand how someone is getting 270whp out of a 14b and 14psi.
Which leads me to believe we have internet hp in question here.

I made 289 crank with 17 psi
But I also have o/s valves and did some light head work.
Which he does not have, plus I'm 7/10's of a point higher compression OR MORE.
Now I don't have his exhaust.
But much of the setup is the same.
Just a 2g bottom.
And I'm FWD.
And you can go get srpung, I know it takes more to roll around 6 rods & pistons than 4, but the extra exhaust from said displacement will rip a T-25 up to boost so fast you could blink. Which makes for a thick, flat power curve. And him coming up to peak hp at the push of a pedal.
Plus 500 less lbs?
More factors than unsprung weight here.
Like BS hp numbers, a way lighter car WITH A bigger engine AND a turbo.
And its a v-6 Its not a high revver anyway, so if the 25 falls off at 5000rpm who cares
he just shifts. He's not going to be revving to the moon like a 4G63, he's going to make power 2000 rpm sooner and just shift sooner.
unsprung that...
jeez.
If he can drive your in fat deep donkey shit.
Because unless you have a dyno saying 270 I'm inclined to believe you don't have it.

 

There are so many factors in this match up it's unreal.. Like inside his intake manifold are his VRIS butterflies tied open, or are they taken out and knife edge? is he still running the stock settings for the VRIS (like honda's VTec) so he'll get a jump of power at 4250rpms?
Sorry man, but the more I think about it, even if he's running the T-25 on 15psi or so.. I don't see you beating him.
Don't forget to add in the factors of how aggresivley geared the 5-spd PGT & MX-6 trannies are.

 

There are so many factors in this match up it's unreal.. Like inside his intake manifold are his VRIS butterflies tied open, or are they taken out and knife edge? is he still running the stock settings for the VRIS (like honda's VTec) so he'll get a jump of power at 4250rpms?
Sorry man, but the more I think about it, even if he's running the T-25 on 15psi or so.. I don't see you beating him.
Don't forget to add in the factors of how aggresivley geared the 5-spd PGT & MX-6 trannies are.

They are geared aggressively but there top end is not there.