[sab4you]

Hey how about this one Co2 is consummed by plant that releases the Oxygen we breath so how bad can that be? Here is another fact our cars as they go through the combustion cycle producers Ozone. You know that " The ozone layer is depleating!!" Another one of natures natural cycles ie that big hole that opens and closes naturally to let out some gasses.

[Edited by Geo on 10-20-2001 at 09:06 PM]

Because world wide we are also destroying plants (ie rainforest). Plants do breath CO2 and give us oxygen back. Plants as well as us need a mix of gasses to breath. You stick a plant in a room with too much CO2 and it cant survive. You stick yourself in a room with too much O2, you will die. Simple, and totally different than Ozone or any world cycle you can think of.

If a volcano erupts and huge amounts of CO2 are put in atmosphere, all human life will die.

Here's my 0.02 cents... If you guys are so concerned about saving the planet why are you going out to buy turbos to burn 60% more gas in the same time span??? Doesn't seem logical to cry about test pipes but to stuff in 3 times more air and burn 3 times as much gas.

I dont know about how crappy your car runs, but my Turbo AWD DSM sure doesnt get 60% less fuel efficency than a NA DSM! Maybe you need a tune up?

Goto any dealership with a turbo and NA version of a car, the MPG are very similar, I would guess on a DSM its probably 2 mpg less.

On top of that, a turbo 4 cylinder is way more fuel efficient than a V8 to get similar power.

So I have no clue where your argument is coming from? You state a turbo car burns 3x as much gas? You seriously need to work on your car bro. Or at least look into comments before arguing them.

 

[aaron31182]

About ice caps melting..

"Maybe in 50-100 years (when were old farts or dead) when the polar icecaps melt and sea level rises 20-40 feet, resulting in massive flooding you will smell the coffee."

Keep in mind that there is no land underneath the north pole, making the north pole basically a giant ice cube. Put an ice cube or two in a glass, then fill the glass to the top with water. What happens when the ice cube melts? Nothing.. ice displaces the exact amount of water it contains, meaning that the cup wont over flow. The northern ice cap could melt entirely and the ocean water level wouldn't rise. Most of the southern ice cap is on land, which would raise the sea level, but it would be more like one or two feet, not 20 or 40. But, thats only if you believe there is global warming. Also, wasn't there a report earlier in the year that water vapor is the number one greenhouse gas? Thanks - Aaron

 

[Jason D]

[QUOTE
Goto any dealership with a turbo and NA version of a car, the MPG are very similar, I would guess on a DSM its probably 2 mpg less.

So I have no clue where your argument is coming from? You state a turbo car burns 3x as much gas? You seriously need to work on your car bro. Or at least look into comments before arguing them.

I'm totally in agreement that we should all be forced to drive more fuel efficient vehicles,(I hate how we all just polute and don't think of our earth's future) but HELLO? Maybe a NA and turbo get similar fuel mileage, UNTILL YOU STEP ON THE GAS!!!! Please sell your car immediatly and go buy an RS with little nerdy skinny tires and then save up for a Honda Insight. This will do much more good than arguing in this forum, where everybody (okay maybe not everybody) only cares about their life, not anything happening after they die.

 

[SugarHigh]

Well, after reading thru this thread I just couldn't help but to add my .02 (which is only worth about .01US )

I very much agree with Dyre and a few of the others mentioning about the environmental implications outweighing any benifits the CatCon may provide to the automotive internal combustion engine. I've heard about and read more than a couple articles on the issue and one thing that I just can't help but think and paraphrase in regards to the arrogance of man to think that he/she is responsible for the atmospheric conditions caused by CO2, NOx and HC. It has been mentioned before about environmental conditions that FAR outweigh the slightest contributions that we can make with our vehicles.

There was something I read a while ago (if I remember correctly) about the Mt.St Helen's erruption years ago... that it produced more atmospherically damaging gases in one instantaneous 'burp' than the human race had produced in the 150 years that it had been industrialized. The planet (and universe for that matter) functions in cycles. They ebb and flow and for the most part span hundreds, thousands even millions of years before they may repeat. It's simple arrogance and a giant make work program that keeps scientists, engineers and everyone else in business by creating a 'hysteria' about us destroying our atmosphere and having to do what we can to keep it from happening. Aside from total global obliteration via a nuclear holocost, I think there is very little that we (humans) can control/clean up/destroy the atmosphere in relation to realistic time periods (a number of generations)... now as far as hazardous waste... well that's another story and one that's OT

 

[sab4you]

I'm totally in agreement that we should all be forced to drive more fuel efficient vehicles,(I hate how we all just polute and don't think of our earth's future) but HELLO? Maybe a NA and turbo get similar fuel mileage, UNTILL YOU STEP ON THE GAS!!!! Please sell your car immediatly and go buy an RS with little nerdy skinny tires and then save up for a Honda Insight. This will do much more good than arguing in this forum, where everybody (okay maybe not everybody) only cares about their life, not anything happening after they die.

I guess you see no difference between waste and purposeful waste. You think since your car is not THE most environmentally friendly car ever, that its okay to make it worse?

Im sorry but thats the most stupid, idiotic thing ever. So America uses the most natural resources in the world - so your saying lets waste more! Hey we are already #1, so lets not care.

So you state everybody on dsmtalk only cares about their life? How will you like having lung cancer? How bout your mom, how bout your kids? You sure dont care if they get cancer? Your a selfish selfish man - I hope you move to Riverside, CA and enjoy all the smog and air and go ahead and take ALL your pollution control stuff off, because hey - you have a sports car! Because hey, you know for sure that pollution doesnt effect you.

Its obvious that most the people in this thread are so ignorant to the world around them, that they are the center of the world and dont care how much destruction they do - why? Only reason given is that hey, since I already am not efficient, lets get even more in-efficient! I hope none of you ever work for my company with brianiac thinking skills like that.

 

[95GSXracer]

Just happened to stumble upon this a moment ago... It seems to pertain to this thread somewhat Note that I am not taking sides and this article does not represent my views on this subject.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/gw/gw.html

 

[Stephen]

The earth is a lot tougher than we are...

You guys are silly...
You think the earth will just sit around and take abuse like we give it?
I watched this awesome show on the discovery channel, it basically said that through global warming, our avg temperature will increase 1 degree every 10,000 years... And we stopped advancement already.

Even if we tried to pollute the earth to death, we would die way before the earth would. Duh... Im sure the smog in La during lunchtime does more damage to the humans then the earth.
Leave your cat on or off, really doesent matter, the earth is fine, we arent

I plan on getting a test pipe with my exhaust. Ill just plant a few trees on my lawn to suck up all the harmful co2

[Edited by Stephen on 10-23-2001 at 08:41 PM]

 

[flix82]

there is another thing i don't understand...

Snowmobile and jetskis polute A LOT more then cars. If you operate either of them for 7 hours, you have just create as much bad poluting gases as if you would run a car for 100.000miles...

When i read that i was really out of believe...!!!!

 

[wc_one]

On your lunch break go down to the nearest power plant. After seeing the amount of pollution that thing dumps into the air, I guarantee you will no longer care about how much your car, or any other car, pollutes the air.

 

[SeatownGST]

Furthermore, who says we are polluting much with AFCs / DSMLinks / etc giving us a lot of fuel TRIM anyway ?? Less fuel to burn to begin with !

I wondered this a while back -- adding bigger injectors and not trimming fuel out on a cat-back only setup , or a turbo-back test pipe setup properly tuned ??

I don't have a catalytic converter at all, and there is no smell. I even dump a gallon of Xylene in the tank quite often to raise the octane point count !

Improperly tuned cars --- now there's the environmental hazard !

 

[Jon_Smith]

A well tuned car w/o a cat will pollute much less than an improperly tuned car w/ a cat. I see this day in and day out doing emissions testing @ work.

For those of you who firmly believe the whole greenhouse lore, consider the source... consider the source carefully.

Your government supports the 'theory' of the greenhouse 'effect' caused by certain gaseous compounds. I would like to state a few simple facts which point out the government's weakness in this argument.

1) Scientific record. There is no conclusive evidence available to determine a difference (if any) between "global warming" caused by the chemicals in question, and an unpredictable shift in global climate.
a) It is proven through archeological research that the overall climate of Earth changes throughout time. This is evidenced by a land mass known as "Beringia", and other places of inhabitation by man which is now underwater (a mere quick example).
b) Our scientific knowledge is quite simply, feeble and juvenile. We have collected such an infinitely small amount of data on Earth's climate, we have NO way of distinguishing the difference between a normal cyclic change in climate and a climatic change associated with the "greenhouse effect."
c) Let's supposed for one moment that I am talking out of my ass. Let's believe that the current "scientific knowledge" is that these certain gases (refer to previous posts) do indeed cause a phenomenon proven to cause grand climatic shifts and melt the polar ice caps.... what then are the major sources of these pollutants? Cars? Cow farts? Volcanoes? Take your pick, because it's all speculation until we are able to meter a cow's ass and probe a volcanic eruption.

2) Governments around the world apparently like to buy into this popular notion that we as a global society are causing the demise of our planet. Consider the source!
a) Our American government tells us that President Kennedy was killed by a lone gunman. Still believe everything the American Government tells you? Hell, the ONLY reason I firmly believe "UFO's" exisist is because our government says they do NOT exist!
b) Special interests. Who is to benefit from the production of catalytic converters? Why are the smog laws so stringent that we cannot go out and buy an aftermarket cat and install it on a new car? I'm willing to bet a lifetime of paychecks that the money from OEM catalytic sales goes to a brother-in-law of someone (persons) very influential and/or directly involved in the Legislative branch of our federal government.
i) Take the example of mandatory revolving/strobe lights on tow trucks. What purpose do the have? A tow truck in operation (lights on while in transit, disregaurd the saftey aspect of the lights while the operator is loading a car on the side of a busy highway) is no different than a soccer mom towing a trailer behind her Suburban. NO different. Yet, by law they are required to have the lights.... Some legistaor's brother-in-law made a pisspot load of money on that regulation!
c) But what about other countries? Simple, America is THE country, the world follows our lead


Just some food for thought. As for me, I'm kitty free!

 

[danl]

DOn't be paranoid, everybody isn't out to get you

Just use a cat, their are reasons automobile manufactures use them, and reasons the gov't requires them. Of course i'm sure the presious ore people probably paid off the gov't to pass a law so the materials in cats will be needed for years to come.

Take a vehicle with a cat, and take on without a cat. The one with one will pollute less (I'm not up on the catalytic reaction that converts which pollutants).

You bring up the point that a well tuned vehicle will pollute less than a car with a cat. Take that well tuned vehicle, and install a cat. Every little bit (and in some cases, a LOT) counts.

I'm not going to get into the rest, I simply am not going to spend the time.

 

[sab4you]

On your lunch break go down to the nearest power plant. After seeing the amount of pollution that thing dumps into the air, I guarantee you will no longer care about how much your car, or any other car, pollutes the air.

LOL.....no. Smokestacks from a plant are different than exhaust from a car.

And about lawnmowers, yes that is correct running those is extremely worse than running your car w/ pollution control on it. There is no pollution control from lawnmowers and they just spew it out.

Honestly, its all about what kind of attitude and person you are. If you see something thats crappy, and you dont care and make it worse, then your the type to take off your car pollution control.

If you see something crappy and realize every bit helps, then you keep your pollution control on.

The way I see it, yes there are tons of things that pollute, crap there are tons of countries with cars that have no pollution as well. For some of you that gives you the excuse to go ahead and do it yourself, which to me is childlike response. "Well they do it, so can I". I also happen to live near Mexico, where you cant drink the water. Maybe we should start having our sewage plants, industrial plants also dump crap into the water, because hey, they pollute it!

 

[Jon_Smith]

not paranoid, just don't believe everything of which is presented to me... especially things that are forced upon me.

true, a well tuned vehicle will burn clean(er) with a cat, but suprisingly margnially so. I've done before & after emission gas anylizations on my truck (cat/no cat) the difference isn't all that much

 

[danl]

$50 for a test pipe

$80 for a high flow cat

THats $30 more to lower emissions (no matter how little) compounded over thousands of miles, and tens of years. A cat can last at least 80 thousand miles, usually for the cars life on a good running engine.


Automobile manufactures and legeslative bodies have come a long way since the 1960's in terms of pollution control. You can argue till you are blue in the face, however I think we can all agree that the changes they have made (no matter how forceable or how little you like them) are changes for the better. Automobile emissions have made a drastic reduction since the gov't and car manufactures took a stand.

Thats my opinion, and the fact that since the introduction of catalytic converters great strides in low emissions have been made.

 

[stanfosd]

I am sorry, but I would credit your concerns a little more if you were driving a honda insight or any other car that uses less gas and pollutes less than a turbo 4.

BTW: volcanos have erupted and spewed tons and tons of CO2 and all human life isnt lost. We are not as bad as alot of people like to make you think.

 

[danl]

1. What does gas milage have to do with emissions? They are unrelated for the most part. The average lawn mower pollutes more than a car.

2. And in some cases when volcanoes erupt, whole villages are destroyed. Their is a huge difference between a relativley rare natural occurance, and billions of cars operationg 24 hours a day that spew way more pollutants than just CO2.


Its funny, reading through these threads, everyone who opposes emssions has some sort of justification.

 

[Jon_Smith]

1. What does gas milage have to do with emissions? They are unrelated for the most part. The average lawn mower pollutes more than a car.

>>It has everything to do with emissions. Perhaps not emissions per gallon, rather emissions per mile... If one were to drive 100mi per day, then an ultra-high mileage car would expell less airborne pollutants than if it were a '82 Ford Granada. However, even electric cars have pollution... everything pollutes.


2. And in some cases when volcanoes erupt, whole villages are destroyed. Their is a huge difference between a relativley rare natural occurance, and billions of cars operationg 24 hours a day that spew way more pollutants than just CO2.


>>Compare volume of eruption vs. volume produced from cars. I don't know the answer to that, but it would be interesting to know. Volcanoes have many more toxins than a car's exhaust...

Its funny, reading through these threads, everyone who opposes emssions has some sort of justification.

>>Pot calling the kettle black, eh? No flaming intended, every opinion has the opposite view.

Seeing as we've gotten way off the orig. thread, we should move this to the lounge.

 

[stanfosd]

1. What does gas milage have to do with emissions? They are unrelated for the most part. The average lawn mower pollutes more than a car.

2. And in some cases when volcanoes erupt, whole villages are destroyed. Their is a huge difference between a relativley rare natural occurance, and billions of cars operationg 24 hours a day that spew way more pollutants than just CO2.


Its funny, reading through these threads, everyone who opposes emssions has some sort of justification.

See, you either missed the point altoghether, or you are trying to avoid it. Gas mileage has everything to do with what is harmful to the environment. If you are worried about pollution, then surely you are worried about the impacts of refining gasoline. Speaking of the lawn mower polluting more than a car, it also gets much worse gas mileage, doesnt it.

Your volcano rebuttle is plain silly. The villages that are destryed by volcanoes are generally not because of widespread CO2 poisoning to the world, but rather because of very localized lava and/or ash. Big difference.

My question is, if a car passes emissions without a cat, why use one? You are below the threshold of what the 'powers that be' deem a safe limit.

 

[BigDaDDyKane84]

Screw Cats. Their not worth it. More HP= more fun!