[90TSI-AWD]

So what injectors are better in terms of quality and reliability? RC's injectors are less expensive, and also Mike@DSS told me that they are cheap and he won't use them, he only will use Denso. So everybody chime in. If you've got RC's tell us about your experiences. If you've got denso's, same deal.
Thanks Guys
Jason

 

[Boostaholic]

Hrmmm...I posted this earlier but it seems it didnt get on here. Just another alternative, check out http://www.dsm-performance.com and check out their injectors. for 40$ more than the denso's, they seem to be really good injectors (I dont know what kind they are, so I could be mistaken.)

 

[Boostaholic]

nevermind...you posted 2 times.

 

[whiteGSX]

This was taken from the SoCal DSM mailing list, written by Mike W. @ RRE:

Hey Mike W, why is there such a big difference in price between the Lucas and Denso 550 injectors?

For us the reason is because the Denso cost us a lot more. For the manufacturers they probably charge according to their costs of manufacturing and that is related to quantities made.

And why is it that you carry the 550s only in Lucas but the 660s and 720s in Denso?

RC Engineering buys 550CC injectors from Lucas (English electronics company) and modifies them so that they fit directly into a DSM fuel rail. Normally they have a hose fitting on the inlet to them. They are very affordable this way. They have a disc design to switch flow on and off. If you read Turbo Advertising Magazine, you will read lovely articles gushing on and on about how this is the best design. Any other sizes from RC are a Bosch injector that is either 800cc or 1200cc that has been modified down to what ever flow you specify. That injector and process is very expensive.

Denso (formerly NipponDenso and for some people Nippen or Nippin Denso) is primarily owned by Toyota and along with Mitsubishi is one of the major automotive electronics manufacturers in Japan. They build fuel injectors with a design licensed from Bosch. It is a pintle (little needle valve thingy) design. Just about every injector in the free world uses the pintle design, it is probably pretty good too. The big injectors are a low production volume thing so prices are kind of high compared to the Lucas ones.

DSM internet lore will have you believe that the Densos are better. There are more stories of people having idle problems with the RC/Lucas injectors than the Denso injectors. I attribute that to the fact that there are 10 times more RC/Lucas injectors out there in circulation than
Densos.

Are Densos that much better to warrant the extra $160?

550 RC/Lucas vs. 550 Denso...Id get RC/Lucas ones. We sell 15 sets of RC/Lucas 550s to every set of Denso 550s. RC has a much better warranty than Denso. RC is here in So Cal, if you think you have a problem with an RC injector, all you need to do it get it to them and they will flow test it and take care of the problem for free. No age limit. Denso is in
Japan and the injectors are imported by GReddy or Blitz. Denso USA does not import or sell injectors to consumers, only for OEM manufacturers. Denso has no warranty system in the US. You have to rely on the shop you buy them from and hope they have an excellent relationship with the
importer they get them from.


And for my Big 16G, should I go with 550s or 660s?

If you keep the boost to 16-17 psi on 92 octane and do all your 20+ psi driving on race gas, get 550s. If you want to play with stupid amounts of boost on 92 octane gas, get 660s.

Mike W



[Edited by whiteGSX on 04-17-2001 at 10:03 PM]

 

[wkd20]

denso

the biggest advantage of the denso injector is that it follows the same spray pattern as stock, rc does not. also all the fuel computers(afc,vpc,sfc,gcc)are tuned and made around the denso injector and are a LOT easier to tune! denso is definitely the way to go , if not the factory would not use them.

 

[90TSI-AWD]

Sorry about the double post, Brain Fart. Guess it comes down to cash. Besides, if you want over 550's then you've got to get denso's. I think I'm going to go with RC's though.

 

[Van]

I did some research on injectors a little while back and saw that some manufacturers have switched from different brands to ND brand for OE equipment. Even from Bosch to ND. I myself thought that was interesting. I've been told by a few sources, that I consider very reliable; that ND and Bosch are the best injectors out there, period.
The disc style Lucas injector sounds interesting too. If for no other reason than "possibly" better atomization of fuel.

Mike's post did make two very good points though, the RC warranty and them being stateside, is a big plus. I've seen a few posts about RC 550's having problems. But that could be operator error too...

 

[Turbosolutions]

I didn't know rc were disc style.Is it a disc style like the dsm-performance injectors.check out the flow pics in their site. it is suppose to flow better than pintle

 

[Boostaholic]

I just got my ball stybe 750cc injectors from dsm-performance.com and they look like that pattern would make sense to atomize the fuel better with lots more flow...

 

[hopkinsj]

Why would anyone think the one's from http://www.dsm-performance.com work better? Look at that picture closely. For 1, it's a 550 vs 450. Of course there's more fuel. 2, you can still see big specs of light, that means big drops of fuel. What we really need to see is diferent manufacturers 550 vs thier 550.

I talked to Venom performance about making custom rate injectors. They told me the disc style didn't maintain a good flow pattern across the entire pulse width range (like poor idle at one end or fuel pooling at the other). They only sell pintel style high performance injectors. I ended up getting Bosch 550s from Brent Rau. I only wish I knew the actual part number for them.

 

[Boosted20G]

I own RC 550s and like them very much, no complaints here.

 

[widebody]

hopkinsj: you missed the whole point of that photo, it wasn't comparing the amount of fuel that was being sprayed it was comparing the spray pattern, if you look closer at the page and read the entire thing you would have seen that, don't bad mouth a product you know nothing about.

As far as venom goes all i can say is, they make great parts for hondas. Everything i tried i didn't like and it went back.

 

[hopkinsj]

My Bosch injectors are made just like the NDs. They work great. I haven't tried RC, I'm sure they work fine too. My buddy with a similarly modded car got RCs. All I can say is mine starts immediately & idles better.

The original question here was about quality & reliability. I just stated what Venom Tech support told me. They are the one's testing & selling injectors. I'm sure RC would have said the opposite. But, since spray patterns change at different flow rates. It's not really fair comparing 450cc pictures to 550s then is it? Apples & oranges...

The injector's main job is to atomize the fuel. Yes, the angle of dispersion matters but distance from the injector tip to the valve face is very important in calculating that angle. Spray too wide & you hit the intake runner walls & fuel can pool. You want the spray to hit the back side of the hot intake valves. Remember, we have 2 intake valves. The stock injectors have an oval pattern. Not many aftermarket injectors do that.

I guess a couple years working in the combustion sensor group for GM means I know nothing...

 

[widebody]

from what i understand the dsm-performance guys saw no need to stock or carry a 450cc injector and tested a stock 450 against a 550 using the same flow rate, not the max of each injector. My 750's are the same size as my rc 550's which where also the same as the 450's originally on the car so after comparing the 3 there isn't any differance in injector to valve face. as far as idle, much more than injector effects idle, such as fuel control, granted the rc550 doesn't idle as well as stock or aftermarket bosche (i've never used a bosche 550) without some help but with a s-afc i got a stock idle with them, now the 750's idle'd like that straight out of the box with no tuning of the pms. i didn't conduct the comparision test but from the loks of that pic it would appear the 550's have less drops of fuel then the 450 and a better "mist" at the same flow, the pattern is wider but not by that much the better atomization of the fuel however makes it look much wider. I did not mean to have my post come off as a flame, but it irks me when you pronounce a product no good, yet you have no first hand experiance with it.

 

[hopkinsj]

No problem, I was about to edit my post to not sound so know it all. Sorry guys.

Happy boosting.